The Spanish Navy - Armada Española

[Tasman]

Australia is concidering removing the ski jump off its BPE's ...

That is contrary to what I have read and been told Stingray. My understanding is that it will be retained as it is cheaper than redesigning the ship without it. Good thing too as it will provide opportunities for cross decking allied VSTOL aircraft and it will retain the option for Australia to acquire and operate its own VSTOL aircraft in the future. Where have you heard this info?

Tas

 

[swerve]

...
This confirms my belief that the BPE was designed to always fill in as the primary carrier, and has serious light carrier potential. Not just a roro with a dock and two largish lifts.

While the BPE is not the ultimate carrier, I would imagine the PdA, GG and others mentioned would be even more limited. Having half the displacement to play with, being ~50 m shorter, at not being specifically designed for F-35 weight and dimentions. Whats a F-35 weigh, 40 tons? Even the French mistral at 24,000t is concidered too small to operate F-35 (it wasn't specifically designed to take them) even tho it has modern large lifts and is a large ship ~200m long....

The BPE was always intended to fill in as a secondary carrier. Lifts, etc. are sized for F-35B - which is expected to have a maximum T/O weight of maybe 27 tons, not 40. Since Juan Carlos will long outlive the Armadas Harriers, that was prudent.

Tonnage isn't the only thing. Look at flight deck length, & lift sizes & maximum weights, for a start. But agreed, the small Harrier-carriers would struggle to operate F-35B, even if their lifts can take it, which not all can.

 

[kato]

the French mistral at 24,000t [...] has modern large lifts and is a large ship ~200m long

What does "modern" have to do with carrying capacity?

The Mistral elevators (both) were designed for 13 tons maximum load. Which is the maximum take-off weight of the heaviest French helo in AdA and MN, the Super Frelon. There's absolutely no need to have lifts fitted with a capacity larger than what you could at all fly from it out of your airfleet.

 

[Galrahn]

So how extensive is the damage to SPS Blas de Lezo?

Last I heard she limped into port on Sunday. I have read a few articles calling for the 6th FFG sooner rather than later to mitigate problems like this.

 

[Gladius]

So how extensive is the damage to SPS Blas de Lezo?

Last I heard she limped into port on Sunday. I have read a few articles calling for the 6th FFG sooner rather than later to mitigate problems like this.

Better than I expected Galrahn, the first informations of the Spanish newspapers were somewhat alarmists in my opinion, specially because the Navy hasn't announced anything official about the extension of the damages and the figures and time-frames published by the media were given even before she arrived at Ferrol and could be examined in detail by Navantia & the Navy.

Nevertheless if we thrust in the rumor mill it seems that the damages could be very serious or minor, depending who you talk. At this time seems one of the shafts lost two spades, also she received some damage causing a smaller water leak, from there the listing reported. Nevertheless the ship sail to Ferrol by her own and after disembark munitions and fuel in the "A Graña" Arsenal is predicted to be transferred to the shipyards of Navantia where a dry dock is already prepared to receive her.

The listing was almost inappreciable at her return to Ferrol. She was photographed in the Arsenal of "A Graña" last Sunday:

Photo © Señalero (fotosdebarcos.com).

The official investigation is in course.

I doubt that we know anything in definite terms of time and money until the frigate be examined in dry dock, the damages catalogued, and the necessary repairs to be made by Navantia be known.

PD: The official Press Note of the Spanish Navy about the incident:

La fragata “Blas de Lezo” interrumpe su participación en un ejercicio y regresa a su Base Naval.

Fecha: Martes, 25 septiembre 2007

En la madrugada de hoy día 25, navegando en aguas del noroeste de Reino Unido, durante su participación en los ejercicios multinacionales -Neptune Warrior 2007-, la fragata -Blas de Lezo- tocó fondo en las proximidades del banco Sgeir Inoe (Escocia). No se han producido daños personales y el buque navega de regreso a Ferrol, mientras se evalúan los posibles daños materiales. Tiene prevista su llegada a su base naval a últimas horas del día 28.

La Armada como es habitual en estos casos ha iniciado la correspondiente investigación sobre los hechos acaecidos.

Translation:

The frigate "Blas de Lezo" interrupts her participation in an exercise and returns to its Naval Base.

Date: Tuesday - September 25th, 2007

In today early morning, sailing in waters of the northwest of United Kingdom, during her participation in the multinational exercises -Neptune Warrior 2007-, the frigate -Blas de Lezo- ran aground in the proximity of the Sgeir Inoe bank (Scotland). Not personal damages have been produced and the ship sails on return to Ferrol, while the possible damages are evaluated. Has predicted her arrival to her naval base in the last hours of the 28th.

The Spanish Navy as is habitual in these cases has initiated the corresponding investigation on the facts happened.

 

[Galrahn]

Gladius that is an awesome update, thank you much!

 

[Gladius]

¿First consequence of the accident of the F-103?

The Commander of the Frigate "Blás de Lezo" (F-103) has been reassigned to active duty without command pending on decision of the Admiral Chief of Personel of Ferrol (OAP Ferrol).

The order, signed last Monday by the Admiral Zaragoza Soto, was published in the Official Defence Bulletin (Nº 196 - October 5th, 2007).

 

[AegisFC]

Getting relieved is pretty standard when you run your ship aground, I'm kind of suprised they didn't do it imediatly after it happened.

 

[Ophir]

...

· 1 STOVL CV [R-11 Príncipe de Asturias] - To be replaced over 2015 by a new CV of a still undecided design (STOVL/CTOL/CATOBAR/STOBAR), pending of the clarification of the future of the F-35B.
...

Is there any news regarding the proposed PdA replacement? Do you think that other countries, Australia for example, might be interested in the future Spanish project, given that the Aussies have decided not to operate planes on their Spanish-designed future amphibious carriers?

 

[Gladius]

Is there any news regarding the proposed PdA replacement? Do you think that other countries, Australia for example, might be interested in the future Spanish project, given that the Aussies have decided not to operate planes on their Spanish-designed future amphibious carriers?

The Spanish Navy has reiterate that the Príncipe de Asturias (R-11) will be replaced by an CV. That is all... nothing more, nothing less. All seems to indicate that the Navy and Navantia not pretend to begin with plans and designs before two or three years from now.

Nevertheless, the future acquisition of F-35B included in the recently published Navy Guidelines 2007 aims to a CV "STOVL".

You ask me if Australia or other countries will be interested for it... Well, that will depend on what intend each country. Problems by Spanish part for collaboration or export of designs I don't believe that they have. Because Spain already built an Aircraft Carrier for another country, the Chakry Naruevet, and there are many examples of naval programs like Galicia/Rotterdam, Patiño/Amsterdam, F-100/LCF/F-124, carried out by Spain with other countries. So, it will depend on which be the priorities of other countries at the moment.

 

[swerve]

Is there any news regarding the proposed PdA replacement? Do you think that other countries, Australia for example, might be interested in the future Spanish project, given that the Aussies have decided not to operate planes on their Spanish-designed future amphibious carriers?

I don't see Australia having any interest at all in buying a carrier. If they want a fixed-wing shipborne capability, the easiest & cheapest way to get it would probably be to buy F-35B & operate them off their LHDs, which have the basic capability (size, lifts, ski-jump). If the Ozzies have the dosh, a third LHD & some F-35B would probably offer more capability overall, at lower price, than a single CTOL carrier.

 

[Tasman]

I don't see Australia having any interest at all in buying a carrier. If they want a fixed-wing shipborne capability, the easiest & cheapest way to get it would probably be to buy F-35B & operate them off their LHDs, which have the basic capability (size, lifts, ski-jump). If the Ozzies have the dosh, a third LHD & some F-35B would probably offer more capability overall, at lower price, than a single CTOL carrier.

I totally agree. The RAN has no interest, at present, in getting back into the carrier business. If circumstances change in the future the logical move would definitely be to exploit the capability offered by the Canberra class LHD's by acquiring a third vessel and a number of F-35B's. For that reason I am certain the RAN will be very interested in observing any future Spanish operations of F-35B's from the BPE.

Tas

 

[StingrayOZ]

I would imagine Spain will be able to trial the Harriers off the Juan Carlos by next year, which will give an excellent idea to how useful they would be as carriers. But I think Spain was planning to build two BPE's?

 

[Gladius]

But I think Spain was planning to build two BPE's?

No, only one LHD is planned so far.

 

[contedicavour]

No, only one LHD is planned so far.

Hmm one day the Principe de Asturias will have to be replaced and I would expect a modified BPE to be built. It would have to be faster and better protected, but otherwise it could become a good value for money CVV-STOVL

cheers

 

[swerve]

Hmm one day the Principe de Asturias will have to be replaced and I would expect a modified BPE to be built. It would have to be faster and better protected, but otherwise it could become a good value for money CVV-STOVL

cheers

You may expect that, but the Armada wants a real carrier.

 

[harryriedl]

You may expect that, but the Armada wants a real carrier.

Is the Armada looking at the Bazzan 30K CTOL carrier or is looking for things like the American plans of the CVV [a kind of new essex class] or something completely different.

also according to wiki the Spanish navy has the second largest navy by tonnage after the royal navy

 

[contedicavour]

Is the Armada looking at the Bazzan 30K CTOL carrier or is looking for things like the American plans of the CVV [a kind of new essex class] or something completely different.

also according to wiki the Spanish navy has the second largest navy by tonnage after the royal navy

Regarding tonnage, it could be right because of the quantity and size of the amphibious component of the Armada. I wouldn't attach too much importance to sheer tonnage though.

Regarding the Asturias replacement, I don't know anything more than the rumours you are mentioning. May be some of our Spanish friends can clarify ?

cheers

 

[santi]

Regarding the Asturias replacement, I don't know anything more than the rumours you are mentioning. May be some of our Spanish friends can clarify ?

The Principe de Asturias CVS will receive her MLU in 2009-2011 timeframe, once Juan Carlos I were in service. The MLU must allow another decade of service or so.
The Admiral of the Fleet said a couple of months ago that they are studying a possible replacement in the form of another BPE (or BPE derived ship) or a more pure STOVL carrier in the Cavour category. But is soon enough to take a decision.
Even if a Cavour flavour vessel is the option probably she wouldn’t be a 28-30 knots/ destroyer combat system ship like the Italian, but a more “spartan” design, strongly oriented to aircraft operations an strongly dependant on her escorts, IMHO.
The Admiral confirmed that the F-35B is the feasible future of our fixed wing component, even in a joined program with the EdA(Air Force)!! (difficult to believe, but…)

also according to wiki the Spanish navy has the second largest navy by tonnage after the royal navy

I don’t think so. May be third after Royal Navy and Royale or even fourth after MMI too
Regards

 

[swerve]

Thanks, Santi.

Given Spanish budget constraints, a cheaper Cavour-type (cheaper engines, cheaper combat system & sensors, delete the Asters & 76mm guns?) would make sense, as would a souped-up BPE-type ship. What about a BPE with the well deck deleted? That would enable a slightly faster ship with the same propulsion system, & allow her to keep a secondary amphibious/transport role, like Cavour. Should be cheap, too - and all-Spanish, which I'm sure would help with getting the Cortes to approve funding. Whaddya think?