The Spanish Navy - Armada Española

[Francois]

If someone can translate that for the forum.
Actually, this is just the natural evolution of a long time bad politics:
You can't take all the technology then spit on your partner and say you can do better, when you can't actually...

El nuevo submarino español hace agua por la falta de tecnología de EEUU y provoca un conflicto con Francia
@Carlos Ribagorda

Jose Antonio Alonso charla con Donald Rumsfeld.
Iba a ser la joya de la corona de la Armada española y uno de los submarinos no nucleares más avanzados del mundo. Pero el conocido como S-80, que sustituirá a la serie 60, no sólo no avanza con la rapidez que debiera sino que ha servido para romper una alianza de años con los franceses de la DCN.
La prueba de que no avanza es que, finalmente, Navantia no ha ofertado este submarino en el reciente concurso abierto por Pakistán para adquirir seis submarinos. “Compraron el folleto del concurso, llevaron a los pakistaníes al astillero de Cartagena a enseñarles las instalaciones y les pidieron una prórroga de sesenta días para hacer la oferta. Pero al final no la han presentado”, aseguran fuentes del sector.
Según relatan estas fuentes, “no lo han presentado porque todavía no saben cómo va a ser el submarino, qué diseño va a tener, si va a contar con misiles Tomahawk, qué tipo de lanzaderas necesita…”. Pese a ello, Navantia acaba de pagar 10.000 euros por el folleto de otro concurso, esta vez el del ejército turco, que también pretende adquirir seis submarinos.
Otro problema es precisamente el de los misiles Tomahawk. Aunque el año pasado el entonces secretario de Defensa norteamericano, Donald Rumsfeld, autorizó la venta a España de estos misiles, todavía no lo ha hecho en el caso de su sistema de guiado, que es realmente lo fundamental. Sin ese sistema, que le guía hasta su objetivo con una precisión milimétrica, los Tomahawk son menos Tomahawk.
La operación S-80 la puso en marcha el ex presidente Aznar con el compromiso de Bush de cederle también el sistema de guiado, pero tras el empeoramiento de las relaciones entre España y Estados Unidos será difícil que eso llegue a buen puerto. También será casi imposible que, con Zapatero en el poder, los americanos recomienden a sus países aliados comprar el S-80 frente a los modelos francés o alemán (Estados Unidos sólo fabrica submarinos nucleares).
Las relaciones con los franceses, rotas
Lo peor de todo es que, además de perder el apoyo americano, también están rotas las relaciones con los franceses. “No se hablan”, aseguran fuentes conocedoras de la situación. Precisamente, Navantia y la gala DCN tienen un acuerdo para fabricar conjuntamente el submarino modelo Scorpene y acudir a los concursos con él. Así, la carga de trabajo que tiene ahora mismo el astillero de Cartagena son los contratos con Malasia y la India. Prácticamente, Cartagena depende de la carga de trabajo que le subcontrataban los franceses porque el Scorpene es un diseño suyo.
Pero después de que España decidiera diseñar en solitario un nuevo submarino, los franceses han decidido que tampoco van a acudir a los concursos internacionales con el Scorpene (que tendrían que ceder una parte de su producción a España), y han diseñado uno nuevo, prácticamente igual al anterior, pero que les sirve para evitar el acuerdo con España. Este nuevo submarino lo han llamado Merlin, y es el que Francia ha ofertado a Pakistán y lo hará también a Turquía.
En consecuencia, España ha perdido la carga de trabajo que le daba Francia mientras que el desarrollo del submarino propio no avanza. Incluso ya se oyen rumores en los pasillos del ministerio de Defensa de que lo mejor sería parar el proyecto y replantearlo. “Hay elecciones a la vista, así que no harán nada”, aseguran fuentes del sector.

Source

 

[Turk]

I don't think that using Santa maria's to battle because thay are designed for surface to air missions.

 

[Falstaff]

Wow, here seems to be a lot of knowledge about the spanish navy here.

I have a question regarding the F-100: Now that the F-124 (Sachsen-class) is in service with our german navy there are voices from within the "Bundesmarine" (quoted by the german magazine Marineforum) that the F-124 AAW "Frigate" is too complex as a weapon system with all its capabilities and that within a few years the man machine interface needs to be simplified. It is stated that this is not a design flaw but meets the requirements of the german navy that originally wanted the ship like this.
As the F-100 and the F-124 have common roots and similar capabilities I would like to know if there's anything such in the spanish navy?

 

[santi]

Well, the fifth and the possible sixth F-100 will include some improvements like new combat system now in development (SCOMBA) mostly based in COTS technology. This system, like the actual one, CDS, is the interface between AEGIS and the other stuff on the vessel (sonar, gun direction, ECM/ESM, etc.).
Even SPY-1D(V), that will be the standard in F-105 & 106, include more COTS technology than the precedent versions of AEGIS. I suppose that the idea, like ever you go for COTS, is easier and cheaper maintenance and upgrades in the future.
Apart from that, Spanish Armada is quite satisfied with F-100, like I presume is Bundesmarine with F124…

Regards

 

[Gladius]

If someone can translate that for the forum.

Source

Translation:

The new Spanish submarine does water by the US technology lack and causes a conflict with France @Carlos Ribagorda

Jose Antonio Alonso chats with Donald Rumsfeld. Was going to be the jewel of the crown of the Spanish Armada and one of the most advanced not nuclear submarines of the world. Not not but the known as S-80, that will replace the series 60, does only advance with the rapidity that to owe but has served to break an alliance of years with the French of the DCN.
The proof that does not advance is that, finally, Navantia has not offered this submarine in the recent contest opened by Pakistan to acquire six submarines. "They bought the pamphlet of the contest, they carried to the Pakistani al shipyard of Cartagena to teach them the installations and they asked them an overtime of sixty days to do the offering. But finaly they have not presented it", assure sources of the sector.
As relate these sources, "they have not presented it because do not yet they know how is going to be the submarine, what design is going to have, if is going to count with missiles Tomahawk, what type of launchers needs…". Despite it, Navantia has just paid 10.000 euro by the pamphlet of another contest, this time that of the Turkish army, that also intends to acquire six submarines.
Another problem is exactly that of the missiles Tomahawk. Although last year the then secretary of American Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, authorized the sale to Spain of these missiles, yet has not done it in the case of its system of guided, that is really the fundamental thing. Without that system, that him guide to its objective with a precise precision, the Tomahawk are less Tomahawk.
The operation S-80 set in motion it the former president Aznar with the commitment of Bush to yield him also the system of guided, but after the deterioration of the relations between Spain and United States he will be difficult that that arrive at good port. Also it will be almost impossible that, with Zapatero in the power, the Americans recommend its allied countries to buy the S-80 set against the French or German models (United States only manufactures nuclear submarines).
The relations with the French, broken.
The worse thing of all is that, besides losing the American support, also are broken the relations with the French. "They are not spoking", they assure expert sources of the situation. Exactly, Navantia and the french DCN have an agreement to manufacture jointly the model submarine Scorpene and to respond to the contests with him. Thus, the load of work that has right now the shipyard of Cartagena are the contracts with Malaysia and the India. Practically, Cartagena depends on the load of work that the French subcontracted him because the Scorpene is a theirs design. But after Spain to decide to design alone a new submarine, the French have determined that do neither they be going to respond to the international contests with the Scorpene (that would have that to yield a part of its production to Spain), and they have designed one new, practically equal to previous, but that serves them to avoid the agreement
with Spain. This new submarine they have called it Merlin, and is the one that France has offered to Pakistan and will do it also to Turkey.
Consequently, Spain has lost the load of work that France gave him while the development of the own submarine does not advance. Even already rumors in the walkways of the department of Defense are heard that the best would be to stop the project and to redefine it. "There are elections in sight, so they will not do anything", assure sources of the sector.

My opinion of this crap is simple. This article is another rubbish of El Confidencial.

Francois, the credibility of "El Confidential" is minimal. Their history of articles about our armed forces is plagued of hoaxes and disinformations, or from time to time of plain lies. Two weeks ago they publish a fantastic article, titled "Return the Invincible Armada" (Link) about the Spanish Navy intentions to launch a new unprecedented expansion for our navy in the next few years with the intention of convert our Navy on the Third more Powerful Navy of Europe and they would pretend that with a plan for eigth S-80s, twelve Frigates, an MLU for the R-11 Principe de Asturias & a new BPE for 1200 million €...

Obviously the article was a complete hoax, that is, all the subs planed are the four (4) S-80A, the MLU for the R-11 was approved IIRC with a budget of around 200 million € and the contract for the BPE was signed by 360 million € (so... Where are the remain 650 million € quoted by El Confidencial? Only in their minds full of fantasies) and the frigates will be eleven (five F-100 and six old F-80) Remain pending the final approval by the Cabinet of the sixth F-100.

On the other hand, about the S-80s...

Actually, this is just the natural evolution of a long time bad politics:
You can't take all the technology then spit on your partner and say you can do better, when you can't actually...

Well, actually the project of this subs is advanced enough, with its baseline design approved and the contracts of many systems already awarded and signed, like the Combat System (contracted with Lockheed Martin - ~200 million €), Periscopes (contracted with Kollmorgen Electro-Optical & his subsidiary Calzoni - 53 million €), Radar, ECM & ESM Systems (contract signed with Indra - 24,2 million €), Navigation control systems and autopilot (Awarded to the Italian Group Avio) Sonar (contract awarded to EDO Corporation), Torpedoes (STN Atlas with Tecnobit & Expal - 76.3 million €) and so more...

The last two big things still undecided are two, the first one is the final model of hydrogen fuel cell adopted for its AIP system (with two proposals under study, the proposal of Hynergreen (Abengoa) and the a Fuel Cell proposed by UTC Power) the second one the cruise missiles with the Tomahawks as the favorite.

The weaponry, was selected, approved and in the case of its future torpedoes, bought. The model selected was the DM2A4 (the contract valued on 76.3 million € was signed in 2005). Also the S-80 will be armed with sub-harpoons (the contract is planned to be signed in the next few years) and is on final steps the process of selection of the future cruise missile for the Spanish Navy. The desired by the Navy for the F-100 class & the S-80s is the TLAM but in the political heights the lobby for the naval Scalp remains active. The Date announced for the incorporation of the cruise missiles is 2009 (for the F-100 class).

Oh, and a little bit about the lie of the El Confidencial over the Pakistani Tender, Navantia did present (in 2005) a proposal to the contest (Link) but was rejected by the restrictions of the sheet of conditions. This was publicly announced in the Media some time later, with the addendum of a possibility (if the sheet of condition changes at any time) of a new attempt to this contest with a derived design of the S-80.

Francois, for your info, the S-80 has been already offered or is planed to be, by Navantia to fifty (50) countries around the world (Link) with open contests for new subs or not. The last one proposal prepared by Navantia is for Turkey (Link)

Edited again, to add one link more.

 

[Turk]

So what is First and Second ??:unknown

 

[Tasman]

So what is First and Second ??:unknown

Turk, I'm not sure I understand this question. Are you asking what are the first and second ranked navies if Spain is going to be third?

I suggest that you read the forum rules about one liner posts and try to make sure that what you say is meaningful.

Cheers

 

[Turk]

Turk, I'm not sure I understand this question. Are you asking what are the first and second ranked navies if Spain is going to be third?

I suggest that you read the forum rules about one liner posts and try to make sure that what you say is meaningful.

Cheers

Yes I asked that if Spain ranked third what is First and Second

I am sorry about explaining you are right

 

[Ligreton]

France And Uk

 

[Turk]

What about Germany I think Germany has got strong navy too

Remember Submarines

 

[Falstaff]

I think Germany has another "type" of navy. If you look at the numbers of the combat units as of today:

3x F124 "Sachsen-Class" AAW frigates
4x F123 "Brandenburg-Class" ASW frigates
8x F122 "Bremen-Class" multi-role frigates (mostly ASuW)
10x Type 142A "Gepard-Class" FAC
4x U212 A (4th boat in service from may this year)
10x U206 A

The 10 FAC and the 10 U206 A are very limited in terms of overseas deployment and were mainly designed for use in the baltic sea and there is no amphibious ship to support landings etc.
Only with the K130 "Braunschweig-Class" corvettes (5 to be delievered 2007/08) we will have land attack capability and with induction of the F125 stabilisation frigate (4 units from 2014) we'll have dedicated ships to support troops on the coast.
A third combat support ship (EGV) is due to enter service from 2011, which will strengthen overseas deployment capabilities.

But we wouldn't even think of LPDs or aircraft/ helicopter carriers etc.! I think that the UK, France, Spain and Italy are europe's top capability navies.

 

[Tasman]

I think Germany has another "type" of navy. If you look at the numbers of the combat units as of today:

3x F124 "Sachsen-Class" AAW frigates
4x F123 "Brandenburg-Class" ASW frigates
8x F122 "Bremen-Class" multi-role frigates (mostly ASuW)
10x Type 142A "Gepard-Class" FAC
4x U212 A (4th boat in service from may this year)
10x U206 A

The 10 FAC and the 10 U206 A are very limited in terms of overseas deployment and were mainly designed for use in the baltic sea and there is no amphibious ship to support landings etc.
Only with the K130 "Braunschweig-Class" corvettes (5 to be delievered 2007/08) we will have land attack capability and with induction of the F125 stabilisation frigate (4 units from 2014) we'll have dedicated ships to support troops on the coast.
A third combat support ship (EGV) is due to enter service from 2011, which will strengthen overseas deployment capabilities.

But we wouldn't even think of LPDs or aircraft/ helicopter carriers etc.! I think that the UK, France, Spain and Italy are europe's top capability navies.

I agree Falstaff. It's not just numbers of ships that count (Look how many Russia has that are inactive and out of service!) but the capability, training, and the ability and willingness to deploy anywhere that makes a great navy. A country's shipbuilding and repair capacity must also be taken into account. For these reasons I would rank the UK and France with their carrier forces and SSBNs, as first and second. The RN's proven record as a force willing and able to project power in any ocean gives it the edge over the others, IMO.

As many of us have noted in this thread, The Spanish Navy is certainly on the rise!

Cheers

 

[contedicavour]

Even forgetting the article from El Confidencial, Spain is the only major country in Europe which is expanding its navy. Lucky them. I would however refrain from any ranking lists since that would imply subjective considerations of the capabilities of different classes of ships.
Today's areas of excellence in the Spanish navy are amphibious assets and AAW.

cheers

 

[Gladius]

Navantia Ferrol-Fene initiates the construction works of the fifth F-100 frigate for the Spanish Navy

EFE - June 29th, 2007.

The shipyard of Navantia in the estuary of Ferrol has initiated this morning the steel-cut works for the construction of the fifth frigate of the F-100 series witch is being built at the present in the factories of Ferrol and Fene for the Spanish Navy, reported today sources of the company.

At twelve o'clock of the noon, in the workshop of elaborates of the shipyard of Ferrol-Fene proceeded the first cut of steel sheet for the fifth frigate of F-100 series for the Spanish Navy, in an act presided by the director of the shipyard, Angel Recamán, and the Captain, Ramón Vázquez (Spanish Navy).

Navantia indicated that the construction of this frigate would suppose for the shipyard 3.750.000 working hours approximately for the centers of Ferrol and Fene.

From Navantia they aim, besides, that the execution of this fifth ship for the Spanish navy, along with the other programs of shipbuilding that are being carried out in the estuary of Ferrol, like the recently awarded by the government of Australia, guarantee full occupation to the year 2012.

The block cut this morning corresponds, according to the company, with the first sheet of the edge 103 of the keel, that according to the program of milestones will be placed in the step in February of the 2009.

The order of execution of the F-105 was signed July 5, 2006 and it is expected that be commissioned in July of 2012, to complete the replacement of the F-70 series, the "Baleares" class, with almost three decades in assets.

The fifth frigate of the series F-100 is almost identical to her four previous sisters, although installs the new radar of Lockheed Martin, the AEGIS 1-D (V), and incorporates other modifications derived of improvements in the productive process and of the experience in the operation of the 4 previous ships of the series.

Link to the Spanish Version

 

[Blas de Lezo]

And who knows Gladius, there could be a sixth judging by the way the Armada is pushing!!!.

 

[Gladius]

Yes, you are right on that.

The pressure applied from the Navy and the Xunta for the sixth F-100 is continuous and constant, but we will see. The sixth ship will be a political decision for the cabinet, but with elections on sight (8 months) may be they sign the approval near to them, to gain some votes on Galicia.

IIRC the last public claim for the sixth F-100 made by the Chief Admiral of the Navy (AJEMA) Zaragoza Soto was yesterday.

The Armada reiterates its petition of a sixth frigate F-100.

The AJEMA indicates that the ship depends of a "political decision"

Sebastián Zaragoza does not rule out the shipment to Bosnia of a company of the Tercio Norte.

La Voz de Galicia.
A. Bellón - July 4th, 2007. (Ferrol)

"The Navy has expressed already many times that its desire is to include the sixth frigate F-100." Thus was the declaration of the Admiral Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff of the Navy (AJEMA) Sebastián Zaragoza Soto made yesterday, in some statements to the press during a visit to Ferrol. The AJEMA reiterated that "we would like to include her", although indicated that its production "is a political decision and that has to do with the resources and with many determining".

These words were produced few days after Navantia initiated the F-105, whose work began last Friday. It will report 3,75 million working hours to the factories of the estuary. When the second reconversion was approved, the Government compromised to entrust to the local shipyards two frigates more than the series F-100.

But the order of this sixth unit continues, nevertheless, still paralyzed. Also the past Friday the general director of Economic Planning of the Xunta, Aureliano Garcia González Llanos, assured that the initiative is found still in feasibility study.

It asked, on the other hand, on the possibility that soldiers of the North Third are displeased to Bosnia, the Ajema indicated: "It is a theme that is open, the marines can go to any exterior mission, because is prepared for it, but right now is not closed the theme, but is not ruled out neither".

In statements to The Voice published last May 8, the colonel Juan Feal, responsible for the North Third, underlined its disposition to that a company of 34 men participated in it mentioned mission. The military of Ferrol, in case to be summarized the plan, they would pass about four months in the Balkan country and its function would be to relieve its companions from the Canary Islands.

The mission of peacekeeping in the Balkans would suppose a milestone for the Tercio Norte, an unit destined to the security of the Navy installations and personalities. In this way, would see expanded the range of operations that can comply.

The statements of Sebastián Zaragoza Soto on these matters were produced before to proceed to the inauguration, in the Headquarters of the Caixa Galicia Foundation, of the conversation international about "Naval Blockades and Amphibious Operations in the wars of the Revolution and the Empire (1793-1815)", organized by the Institute of History and Naval Culture and the Institute of History (CSIC). During four days, a numerous group of experts they will debate on this framework the action of the naval power on the terrestrial conflicts. The conferences are of free admission and they are open to all public.

Link to original Spanish version.

 

[contedicavour]

If a 6th F100 is approved, how many Santa Maria/OHPs would be kept in service ? 6 OHP + 6 F100 or the number stays at 10 total (4 OHP and 6 F100) ?
If only we had the same financial situation (budget surplus I mean) ...

cheers

 

[Gladius]

If a 6th F100 is approved, how many Santa Maria/OHPs would be kept in service ? 6 OHP + 6 F100 or the number stays at 10 total (4 OHP and 6 F100) ?
If only we had the same financial situation (budget surplus I mean) ...

Conte, if the sixth F-100 is finally approved, the number of oceanic escorts would be 12. Six F-100 in the 31st Escorts Squadron (first tier) and six F-80 in the 41st Escorts Squadron (second tier). That is the Navy wish.

If you remember, the Navy has recently changed 17 Escorts [11 Oceanic Escorts (5 F-70 + 6 F-80) and 6 Light Escorts (6 F-30)] for only 11 Oceanic Escorts (5 F-100 + 6 F-80).
Certainly the six corvettes of the Descubierta class weren't a first level escorts but they relief their bigger sisters with warm zone deployments where now we have to send a F-80 or a F-100. Their overhaul & conversion (now without any ASW & AAW (missile) weaponry) to patrol duties with reduced crew and the decommission of the of Baleares (F-70) class, free a big chunk of manpower. With the nearing decommission of the two Newports this tendency will continue. And never forget that our real problem in the Navy, is manpower, not the budget. However a bigger one would be appreciated...

Twelve escorts would be better to simultaneously comply with national operative deployments, the escorts needs of the Fleet Projection Group & our naval international compromises (NATO, Enduring Freedom, EUROMARFOR...) & the programmed maintenance periods of the ships.

Also, the real extension of the Mid Life Upgrade of the F-80s is now on discuss. At this time the first two F-80s to receive their MLU are on dry dock under Navantia capable hands.

Apparently the Navy is favourable to limit the extension of the MLU for the four older ships (17-21 years old) to a light modernization (electronic, CAVIMAR and Harpoon & SM-1MR Block VI updates) while the two newer ships of the class (12-13 years old) would receive a more intensive work in their MLU (electronic, new radar & modified fire directors, Indra Aldebaran ESM/ECM, Harpoon update, SM-2MR capability, etc...). Pending of money availability would be a new ATAS (AJEMA Zaragoza Soto dixit).

The replacement of the Santa María class is predicted to 2017-2020.

But now we have another player in the game. The Australian contract for the AWD and LHDs have a pack of offsets signed for an estimated value of 1.200 million €. Is possible than some things come from our Aussie friends under these offsets packs (some are dreaming with Nulkas). That is not something new, IIRC the offsets of the Norwegian F-310 contract include the NASAMS for the Army and Penguins Mk.II for the Navy.

 

[contedicavour]

Very interesting thanks.
I'm interested in the update of the most recent OHPs/Santa Maria. You mention SM2 MR capability. Does that mean updating the Mk13 single launcher to fire the SM2 or does it mean installing a VLS for SM2/ESSM ?

This is all the more interesting since we are thinking of how to update the 2 DDGs De la Penne class who unfortunately have the same obsolescence problem with the Mk13 launcher and the SM1 MR.

cheers

 

[santi]

Waiting for the Gladius answer, the SM-2 would be launched from the current Mk-13, in the same way that the upgraded Adelaide will do.