The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

[Capt. Ironpants]

There are further gaps in the narrative that require more detailed investigation. According to Russian MoD the mayor of the city said on March 31 that there were no Russian troops remaining in Bucha but that he made no mention of civilians dead in the streets with their hand tied. So why would this emerge only three days later? Or four days later since the Russians claim they withdrew from Bucha on March 30.
Source: https://tass.com/defense/1431767

Another interesting thing is that the CNN reporter who went there with the group of journos who were driven around the place by a Ukrainian police unit doesn't say anything about the bodies in the street, he just tells about the 'mass grave' behind the church where apparently a dozen bodies were berried, however from the images we see most of them are in body bags so we don't know if those are civilians or soldiers. On the last seconds of his story he mentions that in some places (not necessarily in Bucha) there are still bodies in the street but without making any specific comment. Its almost like he was pushed to say something about bodies on the street but he made it sound very general and not specific to the place he visited. I find it hard to believe that in over 2 minutes of him telling the story of his visit to Bucha he wouldn't make a more specific mention of the street bodies. Here is the interview, he starts speaking from 3 minute mark.

Bodies of 'executed people' strewn across street in Bucha as Ukraine accuses Russia of war crimes

The lifeless bodies of at least 20 civilian men line a single street in the town of Bucha. Some lie face down on the pavement while others are collapsed on their backs, mouths open in a tragic testament to the horrors of Russian occupation.

edition.cnn.com

I have no doubt that the mass grave is real, the area has seen intense shelling during weeks of combat, just like in Irpin there were probably many civilians and soldiers hit by bombardments who needed to be berried somewhere. However, a mass grave doesn't indicate that civilians were specifically targeted. To demonstrate intent something more direct is needed, like bodies on the street with hand tied behind their back. However I remain unconvinced by this part of the scenario, main reason being the time gap between the Russian withdrawal and the date when Ukraine brought the journos to show them around. But also a bit sketchy that all were men and they were all filmed or photographed in such way that their faces are not visible so they can't be identified. Also weird, if these people were indeed locals and there was no active conflict in the city since a few days why there were no relatives checking or retrieving the bodies from the street.

The Reuters reporter (see link in my last post) apparently found it odd the bodies were still lying in the street:

"Local officials gave Reuters reporters access to the area, and a policeman led the way through streets now patrolled by Ukrainian tanks to the road where the bodies lay.​

It was not clear why they had not yet been buried."​

It's possible the Russians really did execute all those men in the street and the Ukrainians wanted the bodies left there for journalists to see and photograph and shock the world. I get the impression the journos feel rather uncomfortable about this (who wouldn't?), or perhaps something seems "off" to them. I don't know the timeline for sure, but did it really take four days for the Ukrainians to discover this? Or are the Russians lying about when they left? I can't know whether or why the four-day gap, and it isn't as if the Ukrainians could walk in the minute the Russians walked out, either. For now, a question mark.

Here is an HRW report that includes Bucha:

Ukraine: Apparent War Crimes in Russia-Controlled Areas

Human Rights Watch has documented several cases of Russian military forces committing laws-of-war violations against civilians in occupied areas of the Chernihiv, Kharkiv, and Kyiv regions of Ukraine.

www.hrw.org

It appears no HRW investigator has actually been to Bucha, but there have been phone interviews and in-person interviews of refugees who left.

Another Bucha story:

Devastation and Loss in Bucha, Ukraine

“Vitya has been killed. His body is in the boiler room.” Olena Koval saw the text message when she turned on her phone on March 8. Her husband Viktor, also called Vitya, was dead.

www.hrw.org

So far, the reports sound credible, but they are patchy. It would be good to get professional human rights and forensic investigators from respected international agencies in there (and Mariupol, too, but not much chance there). Perhaps in time ... but as time goes by, evidence is lost.

This is somewhat old, but appears fair enough:

https://www.ohchr.org/en/statements/2022/03/situation-ukraine

EDIT:
If you invade Ukraine, don't eat the pastries. Likely propaganda, but Ukrainian intelligence claiming two Russian soldiers died and 28 sickened after eating poisoned pastries given to them by a civilian:

Two Russian soldiers killed ‘after being given poisoned food by Ukrainian civilians’

Dozens of troops said to be in intensive care while hundreds more hospitalised with alcohol poisoning

www.independent.co.uk

Supposedly 500 are hospitalised with alcohol poisoning. I was super skeptical about thcan s one, but, okay, if you wanted to get rid of a bunch of Russian soldiers, easily lootable cases of vodka laced with something nasty might be the way to go.

 

[2007yellow430]

The Reuters reporter (see link in my last post) apparently found it odd the bodies were still lying in the street:

"Local officials gave Reuters reporters access to the area, and a policeman led the way through streets now patrolled by Ukrainian tanks to the road where the bodies lay.​

It was not clear why they had not yet been buried."​

It's possible the Russians really did execute all those men in the street and the Ukrainians wanted the bodies left there for journalists to see and photograph and shock the world. I get the impression the journos feel rather uncomfortable about this (who wouldn't?), or perhaps something seems "off" to them. I don't know the timeline for sure, but did it really take four days for the Ukrainians to discover this? Or are the Russians lying about when they left? I can't know whether or why the four-day gap, and it isn't as if the Ukrainians could walk in the minute the Russians walked out, either. For now, a question mark.

Here is an HRW report that includes Bucha:

Ukraine: Apparent War Crimes in Russia-Controlled Areas

Human Rights Watch has documented several cases of Russian military forces committing laws-of-war violations against civilians in occupied areas of the Chernihiv, Kharkiv, and Kyiv regions of Ukraine.

www.hrw.org

It appears no HRW investigator has actually been to Bucha, but there have been phone interviews and in-person interviews of refugees who left.

Another Bucha story:

Devastation and Loss in Bucha, Ukraine

“Vitya has been killed. His body is in the boiler room.” Olena Koval saw the text message when she turned on her phone on March 8. Her husband Viktor, also called Vitya, was dead.

www.hrw.org

So far, the reports sound credible, but they are patchy. It would be good to get professional human rights and forensic investigators from respected international agencies in there (and Mariupol, too, but not much chance there). Perhaps in time ... but as time goes by, evidence is lost.

This is somewhat old, but appears fair enough:

https://www.ohchr.org/en/statements/2022/03/situation-ukraine

EDIT:
If you invade Ukraine, don't eat the pastries. Likely propaganda, but Ukrainian intelligence claiming two Russian soldiers died and 28 sickened after eating poisoned pastries given to them by a civilian:

Two Russian soldiers killed ‘after being given poisoned food by Ukrainian civilians’

Dozens of troops said to be in intensive care while hundreds more hospitalised with alcohol poisoning

www.independent.co.uk

Supposedly 500 are hospitalised with alcohol poisoning. I was super skeptical about thcan s one, but, okay, if you wanted to get rid of a bunch of Russian soldiers, easily lootable cases of vodka laced with something nasty might be the way to go.

Bottom line, there are a bunch of dead civilians, 300 or so in one town alone. There needs to be something done about that. Who did it will come out Sooner or later. Whoever it was needs to be caught and punished.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Supposedly 500 are hospitalised with alcohol poisoning. I was super skeptical about thcan s one, but, okay, if you wanted to get rid of a bunch of Russian soldiers, easily lootable cases of vodka laced with something nasty might be the way to go.

Methanol poisonings have occurred in Russia before. As well as being a problem globally.

Illegal spirits containing methanol kill 29 people in Russia

Nine people detained in connection with the deaths in Orenburg region bordering Kazakhstan

www.theguardian.com

Typically the idea is cut real alcohol with cheaper more available methanol. Still gets you drunk, also might kill you, particularly if you take several drinks. Often what happens, is cut spirits are then cut again, and again, each time they are handled. Resulting in a high methanol mix. But methanol is usually on cheaper in countries that tax alcohol. Not sure that anyone can conclusively blame Ukrainians for this unless the openly accept responsibility.

This is one of the reasons why I support legitimate serving of alcoholic drinks on deployments. IMO the American approach of ban everything IMO often leads to illegal recreational activities. With an unsecure supply chain, you open the door to all sorts of problems, including unapproved people on base, unapproved materials, very dodgy connections to local criminals, open to exploitation by those.

"Local officials gave Reuters reporters access to the area, and a policeman led the way through streets now patrolled by Ukrainian tanks to the road where the bodies lay.It was not clear why they had not yet been buried."

Letting the press take photos of such a crime would be valid reason. Ukraine is dependant on western press to tell its stories. Clearing up such a situation could also take time if the bodies are rigged to cause further damage. Usually there is also some effort to try and id where ever possible, or allow ID at a later date via photograph/sample.

 

[cdxbow]

Russia is requesting the UN Security Council meet to discuss what it calls a "provocation by Ukrainian radicals" in the town of Bucha after Kyiv accused Russian troops of killing civilians there Russia asks U.N. Security Council to discuss Bucha 'provocation' | Reuters It will be interesting to see what story they run, Russian denials are likely to fall on deaf ears.

 

[concerned third party]

The Reuters reporter (see link in my last post) apparently found it odd the bodies were still lying in the street:

"Local officials gave Reuters reporters access to the area, and a policeman led the way through streets now patrolled by Ukrainian tanks to the road where the bodies lay.​

It was not clear why they had not yet been buried."​

It's possible the Russians really did execute all those men in the street and the Ukrainians wanted the bodies left there for journalists to see and photograph and shock the world. I get the impression the journos feel rather uncomfortable about this (who wouldn't?), or perhaps something seems "off" to them. I don't know the timeline for sure, but did it really take four days for the Ukrainians to discover this? Or are the Russians lying about when they left? I can't know whether or why the four-day gap, and it isn't as if the Ukrainians could walk in the minute the Russians walked out, either. For now, a question mark.

Here is an HRW report that includes Bucha:

Ukraine: Apparent War Crimes in Russia-Controlled Areas

Human Rights Watch has documented several cases of Russian military forces committing laws-of-war violations against civilians in occupied areas of the Chernihiv, Kharkiv, and Kyiv regions of Ukraine.

www.hrw.org

It appears no HRW investigator has actually been to Bucha, but there have been phone interviews and in-person interviews of refugees who left.

Another Bucha story:

Devastation and Loss in Bucha, Ukraine

“Vitya has been killed. His body is in the boiler room.” Olena Koval saw the text message when she turned on her phone on March 8. Her husband Viktor, also called Vitya, was dead.

www.hrw.org

So far, the reports sound credible, but they are patchy. It would be good to get professional human rights and forensic investigators from respected international agencies in there (and Mariupol, too, but not much chance there). Perhaps in time ... but as time goes by, evidence is lost.

This is somewhat old, but appears fair enough:

https://www.ohchr.org/en/statements/2022/03/situation-ukraine

EDIT:
If you invade Ukraine, don't eat the pastries. Likely propaganda, but Ukrainian intelligence claiming two Russian soldiers died and 28 sickened after eating poisoned pastries given to them by a civilian:

Two Russian soldiers killed ‘after being given poisoned food by Ukrainian civilians’

Dozens of troops said to be in intensive care while hundreds more hospitalised with alcohol poisoning

www.independent.co.uk

Supposedly 500 are hospitalised with alcohol poisoning. I was super skeptical about thcan s one, but, okay, if you wanted to get rid of a bunch of Russian soldiers, easily lootable cases of vodka laced with something nasty might be the way to go.

Regarding the timeline, this must be one of the first videos from Bucha. Posted in the late evening on the 1st of April, filmed during the same day, I'd assume. IMO this kinda confirms the withdrawal of the Russian forces at the end of March.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1509985789404459011

 

[Twain]

Just here for a bit but I found this fascinating. A few significant parts here but the article is worth reading.

"Azart was an effort to duplicate the U.S. Army SINCGARS series of radios introduced in the 1980s as a solution to jamming of radio transmissions on the battlefield, as well as the risk of the enemy understanding these messages. Russian jamming of tactical radios was a threat throughout the Cold War and SINCGARS was the first successful solution because it used effective frequency hopping "

"The Ukrainians know all about Azart because soon after Russian troops began receiving them in 2017, many also showed up on the black market, where anyone could buy one. The Ukrainians did so and, along with NATO, discovered what Azar could do and what its weaknesses were. Ukrainian and NATO tech experts concluded that, with proper countermeasures, the Azart radios would become a major liability for Russian commanders and it was. "

"Russian commanders, unable to communicate, must stay on the roads and are often stalled because they have not received new orders or cannot report that they are under attack ... This is one reason Russian troops were told, after about ten days, to loot at will to obtain supplies. "

Electronic Weapons: A Failure To Communicate

Russian forces invading Ukraine are at a disadvantage for many reasons, including inadequate or absent military radios While Western military radios have been using frequency hopping and software defined operation since the 1980s, Russian forces were s

www.strategypage.com

"This "failure by corruption" of the Azart radios enabled Ukraine to counterfeit "The Fuel convoy is coming" messages that took quite some time for the Russian Army HQ to pick up on. 11/ "

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1510745458477572098

This enabled Ukraine to send fake orders to troops, hence the 40 mile convoy that stayed parked on the road for 2? weeks. I also saw somewhere that Ukraine also sent "All is well" messages to moscow. I'll look for that link tomorrow.

Edit found it, just needed to scroll farther

"This was aided greatly by capturing the Azart radio gear frequency, password & encryption setting documents of the 1st VDV assault on the Antonov facility. Zelinsky's leadership & Russian corruption (including tires as well as radios!)"

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1510745460096516097

 

[ngatimozart]

The difference with Katyn is that sanctioned; Polish officers together with the intelligentsia were considered dangerous elements.

Sanctioned by Stalin doesn't make it any more legal. It's still a crime against humanity and arguably a war crime, to boot.

 

[STURM]

Sanctioned by Stalin doesn't make it any more legal. It's still a crime against humanity and arguably a war crime, to boot.

Of course it doesn't. I was merely pointing out the difference because there was a reference to Katyn.

 

[Soldier25]

Footage of the combat departure of Ka-52 attack helicopters of the Russian Aerospace Forces was published by the Ministry of Defense. The combat mission was to find and destroy the camouflaged positions of the Ukrainian army. The pilots successfully completed the task by using guided and unguided S-8 missiles from low altitudes.

After the transfer of a group of Russian troops from Kiev to Donbass to complete a special operation to liberate these territories, Ukrainian troops entered the Antonov International Airport in the village of Gostomel. One of the eyewitnesses took a close-up of the wreckage of the largest aircraft in the world An-225 "Mriya". Ukraine destroyed the world's largest AN-225 Mriya transport aircraft with its own hands. It happened because of the shelling of Antonov airport by Ukrainian troops.

 

[cdxbow]

Footage of the combat departure of Ka-52 attack helicopters of the Russian Aerospace Forces was published by the Ministry of Defense. The combat mission was to find and destroy the camouflaged positions of the Ukrainian army. The pilots successfully completed the task by using guided and unguided S-8 missiles from low altitudes.

After the transfer of a group of Russian troops from Kiev to Donbass to complete a special operation to liberate these territories, Ukrainian troops entered the Antonov International Airport in the village of Gostomel. One of the eyewitnesses took a close-up of the wreckage of the largest aircraft in the world An-225 "Mriya". Ukraine destroyed the world's largest AN-225 Mriya transport aircraft with its own hands. It happened because of the shelling of Antonov airport by Ukrainian troops.

Are you sure that's not Russian propaganda? Most reports claim otherwise.

Ukraine accuses Russia of massacre in Bucha as 410 bodies found, Zelenskyy says corpses mined by retreating Russian forces - ABC News

 

[StingrayOZ]

Australia has found, prepped, painted and readied several bushmasters for immediately delivery.
~48 hrs..

First Australian armoured vehicles bound for Ukraine painted and ready to go

Four ADF Bushmaster vehicles are hastily repainted and modified so they can be flown to Europe, after a direct public request for them from Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy.

www.abc.net.au

Immediately following President Zelenskyy's historic address the Defence department scrambled to work out how best to get the Bendigo-built armoured vehicles to the war-torn nation in Eastern Europe quickly.

Now the ABC can reveal the first four troop carriers were repainted and refitted in Brisbane over the weekend ahead of their delivery to RAAF Base Amberley, where they are expected to be loaded onto a C-17 Globemaster before being flown to Europe.

Still unclear how they will get into Ukraine. But much haste has been given for this project.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Experts can be brought in in mere hours by airplane. No one has any ground to deny them access to this.

Err, in WWII anti-aircraft technology was much less sophisticated than it is now. One guy with a small shoulder-launched device can now easily shoot down a plane. Not sure it's worth the risk.

Or to put it another way, if a bunch of EU civilian experts want to volunteer to be flown into a warzone, they can do so right now - in public - and ask their governments for authorisation to go.

 

[vonnoobie]

Err, in WWII anti-aircraft technology was much less sophisticated than it is now. One guy with a small shoulder-launched device can now easily shoot down a plane. Not sure it's worth the risk.

Or to put it another way, if a bunch of EU civilian experts want to volunteer to be flown into a warzone, they can do so right now - in public - and ask their governments for authorisation to go.

Except it's not a combat zone so much now is it. If an international team is inbound to investigate the alleged war crime something that Ukraine has requested then you can bet that their will be informing every aircraft and AA asset they possess not to knock it out but rather go above and beyond to make sure the team gets in safely. If the harm or hamper it in anyway then it weakens their international support while potentially giving support to the Russian narrative, if Russia tries in anyway to block or harm said team then it will give support to the Ukranian claims.

 

[QEDdeq]

The Reuters reporter (see link in my last post) apparently found it odd the bodies were still lying in the street:

"Local officials gave Reuters reporters access to the area, and a policeman led the way through streets now patrolled by Ukrainian tanks to the road where the bodies lay.​

It was not clear why they had not yet been buried."​

It's possible the Russians really did execute all those men in the street and the Ukrainians wanted the bodies left there for journalists to see and photograph and shock the world. I get the impression the journos feel rather uncomfortable about this (who wouldn't?), or perhaps something seems "off" to them. I don't know the timeline for sure, but did it really take four days for the Ukrainians to discover this? Or are the Russians lying about when they left? I can't know whether or why the four-day gap, and it isn't as if the Ukrainians could walk in the minute the Russians walked out, either. For now, a question mark.

Here is an HRW report that includes Bucha:

Ukraine: Apparent War Crimes in Russia-Controlled Areas

Human Rights Watch has documented several cases of Russian military forces committing laws-of-war violations against civilians in occupied areas of the Chernihiv, Kharkiv, and Kyiv regions of Ukraine.

www.hrw.org

It appears no HRW investigator has actually been to Bucha, but there have been phone interviews and in-person interviews of refugees who left.

The narrative in the BBC is slightly changing today with Jack Watling from UK defence and security think tank Rusi quoted as saying:
"This isn't a one-off atrocity. This is very much how the Russians conduct anti-partisan warfare".

This seems to suggest those guys dead on the street might have been local defense forces involved in some kind of partisan activity and the Russians executed them. If that is true an independent forensic investigation should aim to establish how they died and especially if they were made prisoners beforehand and then executed, which would be a war crime, or made to look like they were taken prisoners in the time after the Russian withdrawal and the journalists planned visit in the area. Its very hard to carry this type of investigation in times of war and when one of the sides is free to manipulate the scene. I hope that justice will be made eventually.

Regardless of the specific aspects related to Bucha, I think the Russians should still be prosecuted on an international court because on a macro level the war brought so much destruction upon civilian life, just a look at Mariupol and hundreds of people dead on the streets, on playing grounds or underneath demolished buildings. I don't get how Russians can still see it as a victory, especially knowing that Mariupol is a Russian speaking city and it used to be very pro-Russian. I see DNR fighters being decorated and raising flags on top of destroyed buildings but when you look closely at their faces something is off. I think deep down they ask themselves what the hell is going on and how they got involved in bringing so much pain and suffering upon their own people. Honestly I don't know if Putin himself can sleep at night after all this. Yes, there are questions also about how ethical is to defend so fiercely inside urban areas when there are civilians still trapped inside and especially when knowing there is no hope of the siege being lifted, but at the end of the day the defenders are simply defending themselves and their land and they have a right to do so, there is no moral equivalence with what the aggressors are doing.

 

[cdxbow]

The narrative in the BBC is slightly changing today with Jack Watling from UK defence and security think tank Rusi quoted as saying:
"This isn't a one-off atrocity. This is very much how the Russians conduct anti-partisan warfare".

This seems to suggest those guys dead on the street might have been local defense forces involved in some kind of partisan activity and the Russians executed them. If that is true an independent forensic investigation should aim to establish how they died and especially if they were made prisoners beforehand and then executed, which would be a war crime, or made to look like they were taken prisoners in the time after the Russian withdrawal and the journalists planned visit in the area. Its very hard to carry this type of investigation in times of war and when one of the sides is free to manipulate the scene. I hope that justice will be made eventually.

Regardless of the specific aspects related to Bucha, I think the Russians should still be prosecuted on an international court because on a macro level the war brought so much destruction upon civilian life, just a look at Mariupol and hundreds of people dead on the streets, on playing grounds or underneath demolished buildings. I don't get how Russians can still see it as a victory, especially knowing that Mariupol is a Russian speaking city and it used to be very pro-Russian. I see DNR fighters being decorated and raising flags on top of destroyed buildings but when you look closely at their faces something is off. I think deep down they ask themselves what the hell is going on and how they got involved in bringing so much pain and suffering upon their own people. Honestly I don't know if Putin himself can sleep at night after all this. Yes, there are questions also about how ethical is to defend so fiercely inside urban areas when there are civilians still trapped inside and especially when knowing there is no hope of the siege being lifted, but at the end of the day the defenders are simply defending themselves and their land and they have a right to do so, there is no moral equivalence with what the aggressors are doing.

In this interview with Vladislav Kozlovsky, he describes what criteria determined which people were killed.
WARNING - pictures of bodies in article
"They shot either in the back of the head or in the heart." The story of a witness to the executions of the inhabitants of Bucha under occupation - That's how (vot-tak.tv) Google translate works pretty well for the page.

 

[GermanHerman]

Idealy even also in Mariupol, for Russian claims on systematics human shield practices by Azov guys. However too much accusation of each other and propaganda on both side. Finding ones that basically can be accepted by both side is close to impossible this days. Russian will be extremely suspicious for any Western elements, just like Ukraine will be suspicious if it bring elements from country that not in line with the "International" sanctions band wagon.

Besides this days around does it matter anymore? War Crimes accusation usualy can not be prosecuted anyway, unless the other side is completely beaten. War Crimes prosecution only works against party that already beaten and surrender anyway. I'm might be cynics, but that's the realities.

I think it does matter in the sense that it will limit revisionism and create reliable facts.

Also if it were russian troops, Putin wont live forever. We cant say how the country will be run in 20 or 30 years but most people involved in these crimes will still be alive. There is a reason we still prosecute 90+ year olds involved in Nazi war crimes.

Agreed it is something on the windsheild. Are you sure those are hands? I can't be sure. The video quality is ... not exactly hi res. If so, it looks to me like bulky gloves, but cannot be sure. If these are hands/gloves, why are they sticking up like that? Could be the body was turned after rigor mortis set in. I won't pursue that line further as I simply can't see well enough anyway.

Rigor mortis is a temporary phenomenon starting 6 to 8 hours after death and lasting 24 to 48 hours.

If rigor mortis would be present in these bodies it would highly indicate that russia was indeed Not responsible for this crime.

How ever, it's also Impossible to judge this from the footage we have, it's just one of the reasons medical and forensic experts should have been brought in immediatly.

Err, in WWII anti-aircraft technology was much less sophisticated than it is now. One guy with a small shoulder-launched device can now easily shoot down a plane. Not sure it's worth the risk.

Or to put it another way, if a bunch of EU civilian experts want to volunteer to be flown into a warzone, they can do so right now - in public - and ask their governments for authorisation to go.

The heads of three european nations visited kyev while russian forces we're still in irpen and bucha. It should be safe to go now.

 

[ngatimozart]

Footage of the combat departure of Ka-52 attack helicopters of the Russian Aerospace Forces was published by the Ministry of Defense. The combat mission was to find and destroy the camouflaged positions of the Ukrainian army. The pilots successfully completed the task by using guided and unguided S-8 missiles from low altitudes.

After the transfer of a group of Russian troops from Kiev to Donbass to complete a special operation to liberate these territories, Ukrainian troops entered the Antonov International Airport in the village of Gostomel. One of the eyewitnesses took a close-up of the wreckage of the largest aircraft in the world An-225 "Mriya". Ukraine destroyed the world's largest AN-225 Mriya transport aircraft with its own hands. It happened because of the shelling of Antonov airport by Ukrainian troops.

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[Ananda]

If the harm or hamper it in anyway then it weakens their international support while potentially giving support to the Russian narrative, if Russia tries in anyway to block or harm said team then it will give support to the Ukranian claims

I do suspect it's down to whose this International team will be. If this's mostly Western leaning ones, then Russian will not be cooperative. If the teams going to be from nations that Russian deemed neutral or sympathetic to them, then the reaction will be different. Russian I believe also want to bring the cases of Azov 'attrocities' in Mariupol, or Donbas.

Whose going to be in the International investigation team will potentially drag down the time table.

We cant say how the country will be run in 20 or 30 years but most people involved in these crimes will still be alive. There is a reason we still prosecute 90+ year olds involved in Nazi war crimes.

Yes but the Nazi is the loosing side. They can be prosecuted as no other significant power backing them more. Remember how hard to get those Nazi hiding in Argentina in 50's - 70's. There's parties in Iraq that want to prosecuted US serviceman or Private contractor, that so far has not gain much ground.

Add:
Russia is keen bring this to UN Security Council. I do sense they don't want the Ukraine and West take the momentum. So by bringing this to UN they want to make sure whoever leads the International investigation team (seems that will potentially move there), will not be dominated by West.

Russia asks U.N. Security Council to discuss Bucha 'provocation'

Russia has requested that the United Nations Security Council convene on Monday to discuss what it called a "provocation by Ukrainian radicals" in the town of Bucha after Kyiv accused Russian troops of killing civilians there.

www.reuters.com

I suspect they want to bring Chinese, Indian/South Asian, or perhaps Africa (South Africa or Algerian) or Brazilian in the team. Perhaps from Euro zone they don't mind to include Serbian or Hungarian.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Except it's not a combat zone so much now is it.

Are you going to sign up to be flown into Ukraine? I wouldn't right now. "Reduced risk" can go play with itself as far as I'm concerned, and I expect a lot of other people would feel that way.

Until I see a list of qualified persons getting their governments to agree to assume all risk travelling by airplane, etc, I'm not expecting anything soon.

The heads of three european nations visited kyev while russian forces we're still in irpen and bucha. It should be safe to go now.

Except they're politicians, and sometimes politicians accept risks other people wouldn't.

They also went in by train, not air. No one has said it's too dangerous for foreigners to go to Ukraine by any possible route. My point was that expecting experts to be in Ukraine by yesterday just because there are these things called airplanes is daft.

 

[Capt. Ironpants]

I think it does matter in the sense that it will limit revisionism and create reliable facts.

Also if it were russian troops, Putin wont live forever. We cant say how the country will be run in 20 or 30 years but most people involved in these crimes will still be alive. There is a reason we still prosecute 90+ year olds involved in Nazi war crimes.


Rigor mortis is a temporary phenomenon starting 6 to 8 hours after death and lasting 24 to 48 hours.

If rigor mortis would be present in these bodies it would highly indicate that russia was indeed Not responsible for this crime.

How ever, it's also Impossible to judge this from the footage we have, it's just one of the reasons medical and forensic experts should have been brought in immediatly.


The heads of three european nations visited kyev while russian forces we're still in irpen and bucha. It should be safe to go now.

Ref rigor mortis: Correct, and yes, I know that. But how long it can persist depends on ambient temperature. In cold conditions, it can last up to four days or so. In bodies under refrigeration, as long as ten days. I checked the weather in the area:

Past Weather in Kyiv, Ukraine — Yesterday or Further Back

Weather reports from the last weeks in Kyiv with highs and lows

www.timeanddate.com

While it was relatively warm on March 31 and April 1 (highs around 50F), lows at night hovered around 40F. As there were allegations at the time that the Russians had executed those men just before leaving, this left a question mark in my mind. While I have had to investigate "found dead bodies" and learned a lot from doctors who accompanied me, I'm simply not expert enough to form any judgment when it comes to such a close timeline in cold conditions. As I could not even see whether what appeared to be hands/gloves in the grainy video actually were hands/gloves, whether there really was rigor mortis still present, it did not seem worthwhile pursuing or discussing.

I'd like to stress there is a good deal of difference between the way dead bodies appear over time depending on ambient temperature (and also humidity). The processes after death are slowed by cold and accelerated by heat. In winter during extreme dry cold, a body may look fairly fresh even though it has been lying there for several weeks. In a very hot and humid climate, a body may appear to be in an advanced stage of decay after only one week.

Now there are reports from witnesses that some were killed much earlier, as early as March 4. I have not personally read any eyewitness account of someone being executed just prior to the Russians' departure, but there may well such cases I have not yet seen in reports or news articles.

A team of international experts needs to go in. HRW and OCHR have at least one team each just across the border in Poland and they have been there since the beginning of the war. Perhaps their security protocols prevent them from travelling inside Ukraine at the moment. ICRC is operating inside Ukraine, but this sort of thing isn't exactly their bailiwick, and certainly not a priority when their medical and other professionals are urgently needed to assist the living. Ditto for UNHCR. Then again, for all we know, a team from some organization or other might be in Bucha right now. I hope so.

As for the talk about flying in experts, yes, they might have to be flown into Poland, but why fly over Ukraine when driving is much safer? As far as I can tell, it is quite possible to drive safely from the Polish border to Kiev.