Definitely treason for the three serving personnel to sell ammo etc., to enemies of the state. However I am on the opposite side of the fence with regard to the Papuan Freedom Fighters.
The Indonesian Army
- Thread starter DavidDCM
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Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
It seems to be two cases.
m.detik.com
So for the first case (13.000+ pcs of ammunition) one got a life long sentence, one 15 years and one 2,5 years.
For the second case one will get a life long sentence for 1 unknown weapon and 1300 bullets. According to the article for every bullet he got Rp 100.000 and for the weapon 50.000.000, thats in total Rp1.350.000.000!!! Thats an incredible amount, if its true.
Its obvious that those seperatists are supported from outside Indonesia.
Jual Amunisi ke Separatis, Prajurit TNI Demisia Dihukum Penjara Seumur Hidup
Hakim menjatuhkan hukuman penjara seumur hidup kepada Pratu Demisia. Ia yang juga anggota Kodim Mimika terbukti menjual amunisi dan senjata api ke KKB.
m.detik.com
So for the first case (13.000+ pcs of ammunition) one got a life long sentence, one 15 years and one 2,5 years.
For the second case one will get a life long sentence for 1 unknown weapon and 1300 bullets. According to the article for every bullet he got Rp 100.000 and for the weapon 50.000.000, thats in total Rp1.350.000.000!!! Thats an incredible amount, if its true.
Its obvious that those seperatists are supported from outside Indonesia.
This is basically a settled issue for us Indonesians. West Papuans are Indonesian citizens with full rights. Heck, in a few matters they have more rights than I have. But anyway, they can go anywhere they want, vote for whoever, get passports, own land wherever, so on. They don't get the right to secede, but we don't get that right either.
Among us we occasionally argue about how harsh the OPM should be treated and how much dissent should be allowed, but for us the argument that West Papua should be independent is about as credible as someone arguing that Bekasi (a city in Jakarta Metropolitan Region) should be its own nation-state. Think of it like anyone in the US arguing that their state should be a independent country apart from the USA. We didn't have a single Civil War to settle that, but there was a bunch of smaller wars that fulfills the same purpose.
Anyway, let's drop the issue, or OPSSG will have to ban us all for going really off-topic. Cheers.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
CSG companies will sell wheeled armoured vehicles Pandur II to Indonesia
The CZECHOSLOVAK GROUP (CSG) companies won an important contract for the Indonesian armed forces. Following a previously announced contract for rocket…
www.czdefence.com
Confirmation from CSG that Pindad on the first batch getting some customisation and final assembly. Further jobs on subsequent batch will be higher in PINDAD and they (Pindad) will more involved on development of Indonesian version.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Thanks for sharing, but one thing is not clear yet for me. Are there now two contracts signed? And what are the amounts of vehicles in these contracts? I see several amounts in different sources on the internet 4 pcs, 22 pcs and 23 pcs. So im still confused. And are these all of the veriant with a 30 mm turret?CSG companies will sell wheeled armoured vehicles Pandur II to Indonesia
The CZECHOSLOVAK GROUP (CSG) companies won an important contract for the Indonesian armed forces. Following a previously announced contract for rocket…
Confirmation from CSG that Pindad on the first batch getting some customisation and final assembly. Further jobs on subsequent batch will be higher in PINDAD and they (Pindad) will more involved on development of Indonesian version.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
One of the few contracts that is not cancelled/on hold...
www.indomiliter.com
Edit: i add now a link in English.
armyrecognition.com
Treva-15 - Perkenalkan Ransus "Tactical Recovery and Evacuation" Terbaru Zeni TNI AD
Satuan Zeni Tempur (Zipur) TNI AD, total akan menerima 18 unit M3 Amphibious Rig yang dipesan dalam kondisi full gress. Dalam beberapa gelombang pengiriman dari Ceko, selain M3 Amphibious Rig, komposisi pengadaan alat berat untuk Korps Zeni ini sebenarnya mencakup beberapa ransus (kendaraan...
www.indomiliter.com
Edit: i add now a link in English.
Indonesian army receives M3 Amphibious Rigs and Treva-15 recovery trucks | May 2020 News Defense Global Security army industry | Defense Security global news industry army 2020 | Archive News year
The Indonesian Alutsista website on May 11 reported the delivery of three M3 Amphibious Rigs (bridge/pontoon) and two 8x8 recovery vehicles at the Port of Tanjung Perak, Surabaya.
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Redlands18
Well-Known Member
Can you give us a quick summary in English pleaseOne of the few contracts that is not cancelled/on hold...
Treva-15 - Perkenalkan Ransus "Tactical Recovery and Evacuation" Terbaru Zeni TNI AD
Satuan Zeni Tempur (Zipur) TNI AD, total akan menerima 18 unit M3 Amphibious Rig yang dipesan dalam kondisi full gress. Dalam beberapa gelombang pengiriman dari Ceko, selain M3 Amphibious Rig, komposisi pengadaan alat berat untuk Korps Zeni ini sebenarnya mencakup beberapa ransus (kendaraan...
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
/data/photo/2020/05/31/5ed2f65342bb2.jpg)
Antisipasi Covid-19, TNI Pakai Helm Pendeteksi Suhu Tubuh dari Jarak 10 Meter
Helm yang akan digunakan personel TNI AD dapat mendeteksi suhu tubuh seseorang dalam jarak 10 meter.
nasional.kompas.com
So from which i understand, these new cool looking helmets can measure body temperature at a maximum distance of 10 meters, which is a huge improvement compared to the temp measure guns now normally in use.
The TNI-AD got 5 of these helmets, and will use them at army hospitals and probably also some other facilities.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Some sad news, a Mi-17V5 is crashed near Kedal, Jawa-Tengah.
There are multiple sources on the intenet, but ill post just one link.
www.hobbymiliter.com
Five survivors, four on board are passed away.
If im not wrong after the first crash near Tarakan and the second one in Papua, this is the third crash.
There are multiple sources on the intenet, but ill post just one link.
Helikopter Mi-17 TNI AD Jatuh Dan Terbakar di Kendal - HobbyMiliter.com
Helikopter Mi-17 TNI AD Jatuh Dan Terbakar di Kendal - HobbyMiliter.com - Beberapa foto yang menampilkan sebuah helikopter sedang terbakar beredar di media sosial petang ini. Caption pada foto foto tersebut menyebutkan bahwa foto tersebut diambil di Kawasan Industri Kaliwungu Kendal Jawa Tengah.
www.hobbymiliter.com
Five survivors, four on board are passed away.
If im not wrong after the first crash near Tarakan and the second one in Papua, this is the third crash.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Yes, it's the third crash. Basically by this crash, TNI-AD already lost 3 of 12 Mi-17 in inventory. This's make 25% attrition rate due to incidents.
Seems high proportion, and on percentage wise I believe no other helicopters assets in TNI inventory has that rate. However have to be reviewed the problem first, considering Mi-17 track record actually quite safe globally.
From what I learned, the utilisation rate of Mi-17 in TNI-AD inventory also quite high. The Army don't have medium size Helicopter asside Mi-17. Other Medium weight Helicopters of Puma/Super Puma/Caracal families used by AF and Navy, but not Army.
Once talked with an Army Officer during Indodefence, and he's implied that the Army like Mi-17 compared to DI manufacture Super Puma due to Mi-17 rear ramp. It give the army more flexibility.
Perhaps he's got a point in there, as for Heavy Weight, the Army now in final phase getting Chinook, while no final talk on S-70 for medium weight as alternative for Mi-17. Seems the Army really do need rear ramp for their utilities helicopters. After all their most numerous helicopters are Bell 412, thus why they need more Super Puma/Caracal or S-70 for medium weight if they can get that capabilities from Mi-17 plus rear door ramp.
Despite my other Post that being critical on Russian or Chinese made assets for TNI, I do like Mi-17. It's rugged and relative easy to maintain and actually have relative safe reputation globally.
Some in local forums speculate that getting more Mi-17 for TNI can also be problematic due to CAATSA, but for me Mi-17 case is not similar to Su-35. You can get Mi-17 through commercial use deals, and later on converted to military use if necessary.
Seems high proportion, and on percentage wise I believe no other helicopters assets in TNI inventory has that rate. However have to be reviewed the problem first, considering Mi-17 track record actually quite safe globally.
From what I learned, the utilisation rate of Mi-17 in TNI-AD inventory also quite high. The Army don't have medium size Helicopter asside Mi-17. Other Medium weight Helicopters of Puma/Super Puma/Caracal families used by AF and Navy, but not Army.
Once talked with an Army Officer during Indodefence, and he's implied that the Army like Mi-17 compared to DI manufacture Super Puma due to Mi-17 rear ramp. It give the army more flexibility.
Perhaps he's got a point in there, as for Heavy Weight, the Army now in final phase getting Chinook, while no final talk on S-70 for medium weight as alternative for Mi-17. Seems the Army really do need rear ramp for their utilities helicopters. After all their most numerous helicopters are Bell 412, thus why they need more Super Puma/Caracal or S-70 for medium weight if they can get that capabilities from Mi-17 plus rear door ramp.
Despite my other Post that being critical on Russian or Chinese made assets for TNI, I do like Mi-17. It's rugged and relative easy to maintain and actually have relative safe reputation globally.
Some in local forums speculate that getting more Mi-17 for TNI can also be problematic due to CAATSA, but for me Mi-17 case is not similar to Su-35. You can get Mi-17 through commercial use deals, and later on converted to military use if necessary.
Agreed.
A helicopter with a tail ramp is endlessly useful and not just for loading of supplies. It can also internally transport vehicles and support parachute jumps.
Not only will the Chinook provide heavy-lift
(up to 12,000kg on the central hook alone) for the TNI, it is a versatile aircraft that can be fitted for specialist roles that include medical evacuation, as in the case of UK, Canada and Singapore.
In the case of Singapore, some of our Chinooks are equipped with the ELK-1891 Ku-band SATCOM from IAI/ELTA for improve the army’s C2 capability. The ELK-1891 enables helicopter rotor penetration by mitigating rotor masking. Furthermore, the system has LPI capabilities.
The CH-47F Chinook has 42m³ of cargo space and 21m² of cargo floor area. It can accommodate two small vehicles internally. In addition, the CH-47F is well suited for high altitude operations and hill slope operations — which the Indians with their fleet of 15 also need. The CH-47F has the more powerful Honeywell T55-GA-714A engines have a thrust of 3,529kW (4,733shp). The operating range is increased to 609km (329nm) with mission radius of 370.4km (200nm).
The Indian MoD also signed agreements for 71 Mi-17V-5 helicopters during 2012 and 2013. Despite the fact that the Indians are prolific users of the Mi-17V-5 (with a fleet of over 80), the high altitude operations capability of the Chinook is also seen by the Indians as unsurpassed.
The CH-47F Block II upgrade decision, due in FY2021 will focus primarily on upgrading rotor blades, transmissions, and rotor heads, as well as an assortment of airframe strengthening efforts.
A more powerful engine was originally considered as part of the Block II upgrade to the Chinook but wasn’t pursued because of lack of US Army funds. Nonetheless, GE Aviation invested its own money in the effort in order to show the feasibility of the GE T408 (also used in the US Navy’s forthcoming heavy lift CH-53K). Despite the GE T408 testing effort and Honeywell’s T55 upgrade pitch to the US Army, there is no programme of record for re-engining any of the US Army’s Chinook fleet.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
Yes, seems the rear/tail ramp being preference by TNI-AD compared to their counterparts in AF and Navy due to the nature of Indonesian Army logistics need relative to it's sisters branch.
The AF mostly used their Super Puma/Caracal for Combat Rescue and Logistics between base. Similar thing on the Navy (except more from Ship to Shore operation). While the Army mostly doing the logistics on more forward area, thus this seems they found rear ramp more useful.
Anyway if only transporting troops to forward combat area, they used Bell 412 as their most numerous helicopters assets.
The AF mostly used their Super Puma/Caracal for Combat Rescue and Logistics between base. Similar thing on the Navy (except more from Ship to Shore operation). While the Army mostly doing the logistics on more forward area, thus this seems they found rear ramp more useful.
Anyway if only transporting troops to forward combat area, they used Bell 412 as their most numerous helicopters assets.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Seems that recently a second batch of ASTROS II launchers has been delivered. People on the internet talk about around 27 units, can someone confirm this?
Attachments
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Indonesia increases defense budget to $10.6 billion despite coronavirus pandemic
Indonesia could be in line for a record-high expenditure of nearly $10.6 billion for fiscal year 2021 if recently submitted budgetary proposals are approved by Indonesian parliament later this year…
www.globaldefensecorp.com
Actually if talking on 'normalise' pattern, the increase is not that big as this article put. This year, the budget being cut close to IDR 10 Trillion (around USD 750+ Mio), as budget being cut for COVID 19 purpose. Even that, based on talking with some people in Finance Ministry, there's potential some cuts can be added later on in H2 this year in order to provide incentive policies for jump starting the Economy.
Thus this budget proposed for 2021, actually part of sett off on this year's cuts. The plan on defense development still the same.
ChestnutTree
Active Member
It seems that the Osprey might have overtaken the Chinook when it comes to the Heavy-Lift requirement. Although it would be amazing if they do go ahead and procure the Ospreys, I am quite troubled over the notion of whether the Army can effectively operate them with the relatively high Cost-per-Flight Hour compared to the Chooks.
Quite a surprise too for me, while I was still working in the industry (around late 2018 - early 2019) I vaguely recalled of rumors that Bell were in discussions with the Ministry of Defense as soon as the first hiccups with Boeing over the Chinook came about. Glad to see it came to fruition.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
This news is actually hard to believe, very hard to believe.
It seems that the Osprey might have overtaken the Chinook when it comes to the Heavy-Lift requirement. Although it would be amazing if they do go ahead and procure the Ospreys, I am quite troubled over the notion of whether the Army can effectively operate them with the relatively high Cost-per-Flight Hour compared to the Chooks.
Quite a surprise too for me, while I was still working in the industry (around late 2018 - early 2019) I vaguely recalled of rumors that Bell were in discussions with the Ministry of Defense as soon as the first hiccups with Boeing over the Chinook came about. Glad to see it came to fruition.
The V-22 has superior range and speed compared to the CH-47, but the load capacity is around 1000 kg less, and its incredible expensive.
Only rich countries with a huge defence budget can allow themselves to order the V-22, like the US and Japan. And even Japan has ordered just 5.
$ 2.000.000.000 for just 8 V-22s, really an astronomical amou t of money for a country like Indonesia. Oke, Indonesia is not an average piss-poor Third World Country, but this will be the largest defence acquisition in history of Indonesia, as far as i know. Does Indonesia really urgently need the V-22? And just only the V-22 and not the CH-47F?
$2.000.000.000 is in my opinion also too much for just 8 helicopters, even if its including training, spareparts, GSE, $250.000.000 for each is way too mucb.
For example the Netherlands signed a contract for 12 CH-47Fs which was worth USD308 million. With an approximate unit price of USD25,7 million this is of course excluding support and other ancillary items, and with a complete package it will be maybe twice the piece price, USD51,3 million?
And India, in 2015 India signed a nearly USD 3 billion (around Rs 198 crore) deal for the purchase of 22 Apaches and 15 Chinooks.
The last years many defence contracts are canceled or on hold because of budgetary reasons, after many years of negotiations and struggle, while all of them has a value below the $1,2 billion. And now suddenly our government want this?
For $1,2 billion you can get 16 F-16V Block 70. For $2 billion around 24 Su-35 or maybe even for $2,2 billion six Iver Huitfeldt class frigates, completely armed!
Im sorry, but in my opinion its a waste of our limited budget.
Well, like always, we just wait and enjoy the next defence acquisition saga.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
From what I gather, the deal for 8 Chinook will not be far from USD 2.0 bio of this 8 Osprey. This is life time sustainment deal, which if we go with Boeing for life time sustainment for 8 Chinook can also be in similar ballpark.
If we see the deal, it's not only talking on equipment and parts, but also service sustainment. That service sustainment actually can be more expensive compared to equipment and parts.
Comparison to the price of Su-35, it's USD 1.15 bio for 11 fighters, but without sustainment cost. That's mean we have to pay training and additional extra for every transport back and forth to Russia for maintenance and cost to service. That's problem with comparing the costs of one procurement with another, we have to see the whole packages.
Thus I don't think the Netherlands chinook costs you have mentioned above, including all related sustainment costs. Also do remember Netherlands is long term users of Chinook before, thus they already build support infrastructure locally. This includes trained personal for Chinook with Netherlands. This deal of USD 2.0 bio for Osprey include training and support infrastructure within TNI.
This's good part at least that MinDef begin to negotiate on whole sustainment packages.
Based on talk with some colleagues in Ministry of Finance, the previous MinDef being scrutinized on their Budget for maintenance. This's due, the budget is not deal from beginning, thus the cost can be arise any time they ask for maintenance schedule. Getting sustainment packages from beginning will also 'lock' the potential costs discrepancies in the future.
It's just like you buy a new cars right know, the come with guarantee and sustainment costs for 3-5 years (depends on the brand) plus insurance. Basically you only have to pay the Gasoline or Diesel for fuel, and that's all your additional operating costs. After that sustainment, you can trade in your cars.
This method already being done by commercial sectors for some time like the some Airlines. You deal for the lease of your Plane for 10 years, and the deal already included with MRO on your appointed MRO providers for 10 years. After 10 years, you can return your planes to the lessors and trade with new ones.
As why Osprey ? Well like I said previously in Indonesian AF thread, don't underestimate the power of DI partners (in here Airbus and Bell). Long term partnership between Bell with DI, I believe make quite influence on this also.
Now let's see who's going to win with Tankers and AEW, Airbus or Boeing..
If we see the deal, it's not only talking on equipment and parts, but also service sustainment. That service sustainment actually can be more expensive compared to equipment and parts.
Comparison to the price of Su-35, it's USD 1.15 bio for 11 fighters, but without sustainment cost. That's mean we have to pay training and additional extra for every transport back and forth to Russia for maintenance and cost to service. That's problem with comparing the costs of one procurement with another, we have to see the whole packages.
Thus I don't think the Netherlands chinook costs you have mentioned above, including all related sustainment costs. Also do remember Netherlands is long term users of Chinook before, thus they already build support infrastructure locally. This includes trained personal for Chinook with Netherlands. This deal of USD 2.0 bio for Osprey include training and support infrastructure within TNI.
This's good part at least that MinDef begin to negotiate on whole sustainment packages.
Based on talk with some colleagues in Ministry of Finance, the previous MinDef being scrutinized on their Budget for maintenance. This's due, the budget is not deal from beginning, thus the cost can be arise any time they ask for maintenance schedule. Getting sustainment packages from beginning will also 'lock' the potential costs discrepancies in the future.
It's just like you buy a new cars right know, the come with guarantee and sustainment costs for 3-5 years (depends on the brand) plus insurance. Basically you only have to pay the Gasoline or Diesel for fuel, and that's all your additional operating costs. After that sustainment, you can trade in your cars.
This method already being done by commercial sectors for some time like the some Airlines. You deal for the lease of your Plane for 10 years, and the deal already included with MRO on your appointed MRO providers for 10 years. After 10 years, you can return your planes to the lessors and trade with new ones.
As why Osprey ? Well like I said previously in Indonesian AF thread, don't underestimate the power of DI partners (in here Airbus and Bell). Long term partnership between Bell with DI, I believe make quite influence on this also.
Now let's see who's going to win with Tankers and AEW, Airbus or Boeing..
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
USD 2bio is big amount, but don't forgot the deal for 8 Apache before is around USD 1.68 bio. Thus the cost of deal of Apache and MV-22 is not much differ, as Apache deal also include life time sustainment.
This's why I say, 8 CH-47 will cost not much differ with 8 MV-22 if the deal also calculate life time sustainment.
This kind of procurement deal should be the standard from now on. It's multi years installment payment, thus it is not for single year deal. Some idiots in Local forum compared the cost of Mi-26, CH-47 and MV-22 to put how the cost of Russian assets is much more economical.
As usual those idiots Russophile in local forum and Media can't answer how life time sustainment costs from Russian build assets, due the Russian will not want a life time sustainment deal in front.
Inflated costs on maintaining Russian build assets is one of the aspects they're looking for. Looking down maintenance costs and support in the front will not be beneficial for them, as their Industry is not efficient enough to lock future costs for long time cost projections.
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ChestnutTree
Active Member
The UAE's initial 2009 order for 16 CH-47's with associated support and equipment was valued at $2.0 Billion. So it would likely be the case had we gone with LM. What I am most curious about is whether the or not this will affect the Air Force's interest in the Chinook. They also have a heavy lift/SAR requirement and it would make more sense for them to procure the Osprey and piggyback off the Army infrastructure should the deal come to fruition.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Well if this $2,0 billion package is really complete with life time sustainment support (besides initial training and GSE also spareparts and heavy scheduled maintenance for 25-30 years) than it is understandable.
The V-22 is an aircraft with an accident history that has generated some controversy over its safety.
The V-22 Osprey had 12 hull loss accidents that resulted in a total of 42 fatalities. During testing from 1991 to 2006 there were four crashed resulting in 30 fatalities. Since becoming operational in 2007, the V-22 has had seven crashes including two combat-zone crashes, and several other accidents that resulted in a total of 12 fatalities. But looking to the amount of produced aircrafts, 400+, i think thats acceptable. And i also expect that the design is now matured after all these years, and with that it is as safe and reliable as other heavy helicopters like the Boeing-Vertol CH-47, Mi-26 and Sikorsky CH-53.
But one thing really surprises me, this announcement is so suddenly. All other large defence acquisitions have a long history of mass-media exposure and "politicians-talking-proudly-about-plans-to-put-the-items-on-their-wishlist-moments" to the press, long before a DSCA-approval announcement.
One more thing, the US operates the V-22 often with the M240 7,62 machine gun and also with the M134 / GAU-17/A, but according the DSCA-approval announcement, including the package is the GAU-21 machine guns, ive never heard about this one before.
Edit: the GAU-21 seems to be a 12,7 mm machinegun.
Anyway, this is just a DSCA-approval announcement, no any contracts are signed yet, let alone money transfered.
The V-22 is an aircraft with an accident history that has generated some controversy over its safety.
The V-22 Osprey had 12 hull loss accidents that resulted in a total of 42 fatalities. During testing from 1991 to 2006 there were four crashed resulting in 30 fatalities. Since becoming operational in 2007, the V-22 has had seven crashes including two combat-zone crashes, and several other accidents that resulted in a total of 12 fatalities. But looking to the amount of produced aircrafts, 400+, i think thats acceptable. And i also expect that the design is now matured after all these years, and with that it is as safe and reliable as other heavy helicopters like the Boeing-Vertol CH-47, Mi-26 and Sikorsky CH-53.
But one thing really surprises me, this announcement is so suddenly. All other large defence acquisitions have a long history of mass-media exposure and "politicians-talking-proudly-about-plans-to-put-the-items-on-their-wishlist-moments" to the press, long before a DSCA-approval announcement.
One more thing, the US operates the V-22 often with the M240 7,62 machine gun and also with the M134 / GAU-17/A, but according the DSCA-approval announcement, including the package is the GAU-21 machine guns, ive never heard about this one before.
Edit: the GAU-21 seems to be a 12,7 mm machinegun.
Anyway, this is just a DSCA-approval announcement, no any contracts are signed yet, let alone money transfered.
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