The Indonesian Army

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Seriously? Boeing would make the mistake of interpreting which Aircraft Indonesia is after, and then the mistake is further increased by sending a request for a FMS sale on the wrong Aircraft? I would be pretty sure the Indonesian Government would be involved in the FMS process and surely someone, somewhere would pick a fairly significant mistake up.

To the best i can find out this is only the 3rd time a FMS has been approved on the CV-22, Japan and Israel* being the others, so pretty rare and a notable occurrence especially compared to the number of FMS sales done on the CH-47 over the years.

*Sale not followed through
Yes, its a funny case. All other acquisition programs are proudly announced to the press like its 100% for sure that it will be ordered, long before serious negotiations are started. (And after signing the contracts, it will be canceled.)

So to be honest, personally i think this MV-22B case will stay a wet dream for all fanboys and will not become reality.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Will see how this going to play. For me, the way I see it all this 'denial' in media from MinDef is part of their PR cooling down tactics. The DSCA announcement comes at the times of 'politically sensitive' of COVID 19.
Like I've posted before, there's lot of 'analyst' or political busy body that don't want to see huge defense spending during COVID times.

The MinDef response are ranging from denial from one official to another stating that the proses will take time.
I remember when DSCA put announcement for approval for Indonesia procurement of 8 AH-64E. There's also 'rebuttal' from MinDef at that time on the procurement prices.

Whether MV-22 or CH-47 that will come out as Heavyweight 'helicopter', will have to wait. Media and official talk for Heavyweight Helicopters for TNI is circle around CH-47 for some time.
However I'd once read the study on TNI for Heavyweight Helicopters, and MV-22 is already part of comparison in studies with MI-26 and CH-53. So actually MV-22 is not really coming from no where for TNI assessment.

I'm more interested in how MinDef try to educate the public on life time sustainment procurement costs. AH-64E actually already procured through that deal, which shown why Boeing team from to to time come to TNI-AD Semarang AB where AH-64E resides.
 

tonnyc

Active Member
Seriously? Boeing would make the mistake of interpreting which Aircraft Indonesia is after, and then the mistake is further increased by sending a request for a FMS sale on the wrong Aircraft? I would be pretty sure the Indonesian Government would be involved in the FMS process and surely someone, somewhere would pick a fairly significant mistake up.

To the best i can find out this is only the 3rd time a FMS has been approved on the CV-22, Japan and Israel* being the others, so pretty rare and a notable occurrence especially compared to the number of FMS sales done on the CH-47 over the years.

*Sale not followed through
I don't think it's a mistake as opposed to a deliberate attempt to upsell. If this sounds farfetched to you, it is, but if you want a sensible explanation for the Osprey DSCA thing I don't think there is. As several people here have remarked, this whole thing is weird.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

This's an example why I said MinDef need to educate public on difference between procurement cost with lifetime sustainment and without.
Well this particular media is always backing those faction that did not want to procure defense assets from US anyway. However that's not the point. This media quote a Parliament members that stating MinDef should rethink plan for MV-22 due the high cost of USD 250 mio per plane. Thus he just divide USD 2.0 bio with 8, and don't calculate the sustainment costs.

The Procurement costs that usually happen with Russian or Euro or even US supplier without FMS, are not with sustainment costs. Sometimes even without spare parts. This due to the fact, that maintenance usually different contracts, and we know some people in MinDef or even Parliament like different contracts in maintenance due it's usually can be done in more 'silence' mode.

The sustainment costs budgeting has to be make more common for the sake of transparency. This will not be liked by some factions in Parliament and even Administration. However if this administration want to be remembered as administration than try to put transparency, then they have to educate the public on this.
Previous administration already done few procurement with that sustainment costs include. That kind of deal already proved more transparent and can track any potential hanky panky.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

This's an example why I said MinDef need to educate public on difference between procurement cost with lifetime sustainment and without.
Well this particular media is always backing those faction that did not want to procure defense assets from US anyway. However that's not the point. This media quote a Parliament members that stating MinDef should rethink plan for MV-22 due the high cost of USD 250 mio per plane. Thus he just divide USD 2.0 bio with 8, and don't calculate the sustainment costs.

The Procurement costs that usually happen with Russian or Euro or even US supplier without FMS, are not with sustainment costs. Sometimes even without spare parts. This due to the fact, that maintenance usually different contracts, and we know some people in MinDef or even Parliament like different contracts in maintenance due it's usually can be done in more 'silence' mode.

The sustainment costs budgeting has to be make more common for the sake of transparency. This will not be liked by some factions in Parliament and even Administration. However if this administration want to be remembered as administration than try to put transparency, then they have to educate the public on this.
Previous administration already done few procurement with that sustainment costs include. That kind of deal already proved more transparent and can track any potential hanky panky.
Which programs/procurement programs are already included the sustainment package?
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
AH-64E I'm pretty sure already with sustainment package. Just as I posted before, that's why from time to time there's Boeing team that come to Semarang Army Aviation AB to conduct support and training people.

Sustainment package for one thing doesn't mean it's cost being paid up front altogether. But more on the availabilities of support being prepared from beginning.

Also from DI official in media, talk about their present contact practice with MinDef already included parts and support for assets procured through them. In Principe that's already part of sustainment contact. This's if done in discipline way are better that it used to be, where the sustainment being contracted separately and based on availability condition.

Question now is to make it more common or standardise for all MinDef procurement to do sustainment contract from beginning to include and shown to the public all the costs to support the assets.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group

From Pindad Official site, this light 4x4 seems design to replace current TNI Light 4x4 like Land Rover and Jeep. Local media put info from Pindad Official that it's using Engine and Transmission from Toyota Hilux. However the chassis seems developed by Pindad it self.

This's part to drive Pindad as main provider on 4x4 and 6x6 vehicle for TNI. The need for Light Trucks also seems aimed to standardise from Locally build Toyota, Hino and Mercedes. While Chechs TATRA from information from Media also in talk with local Partner (could be Pindad also) on potential building local facility for Heavy Trucks.
Indonesia did not have facility yet for Heavy Trucks, as locally produce Hino and Mercedes still can only be consider as Medium 6 wheel Trucks.

All are part of Government aim on maximizing Local Industry products for TNI and other Government Agency.
 

Ahmad

Active Member

From Pindad Official site, this light 4x4 seems design to replace current TNI Light 4x4 like Land Rover and Jeep. Local media put info from Pindad Official that it's using Engine and Transmission from Toyota Hilux. However the chassis seems developed by Pindad it self.

This's part to drive Pindad as main provider on 4x4 and 6x6 vehicle for TNI. The need for Light Trucks also seems aimed to standardise from Locally build Toyota, Hino and Mercedes. While Chechs TATRA from information from Media also in talk with local Partner (could be Pindad also) on potential building local facility for Heavy Trucks.
Indonesia did not have facility yet for Heavy Trucks, as locally produce Hino and Mercedes still can only be consider as Medium 6 wheel Trucks.

All are part of Government aim on maximizing Local Industry products for TNI and other Government Agency.
That engine look like the one who is produced in Indonesia by Toyota Indonesia Manufacturing. So the local content is quite high.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
engine look like the one who is produced in Indonesia by Toyota Indonesia Manufacturing.
No, Toyota doesn't produce Diesel Engine in Indonesia. Toyota only produce Gasoline engine in Indonesia. Diesel produce in Thailand. That's part of Toyota distribution manufacturing strategy.


Regardless, the engine has lot of population, thus being support easily in the market. This Maung has lot of local content mostly on the chassis and body which build by Pindad.
 

tonnyc

Active Member
The Maung is basically a Toyota Fortuner in a military style body. I'm not complaining. It works, it's reliable, and it's cheap. It's no Humvee, but for routine work they don't need anything fancy.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The Maung is basically a Toyota Fortuner in a military style body. I'm not complaining. It works, it's reliable, and it's cheap. It's no Humvee, but for routine work they don't need anything fancy.
Toyota vehicles are great because they just seem to go and keep on going. Spare parts are easy to get if you break something. Years ago my Australian brother in law told that they were the best vehicles for doing touring around Australia in, because of those reasons.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
They keep on going here as well. I believe Toyota’s Ontario factory is still the only one outside of Japan that builds a Lexus vehicle. Bought a 2019 RAV4 hybrid so hopefully it keeps on going.:)
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
That's one of example that also has merit. However that's not being followed by other larger Euro nation like Germany, UK and French.

With larger countries, it's inevitably their going to be larger need, thus larger organization and that usually follow by one side effects that's larger bureaucracy.
Germany stratified its helicopters a few years ago such that regiment-sized wings each preferably only operate one type of helicopter both to ease supply chains and to give responsibility for a helicopter type mostly to just one branch.

It basically comes down in planning to one regiment for Tiger (Army), one for CH-53 (Air Force), two for NH-90 TTH (Army) and one for NH-90 NFH (Navy); with two regiments having additional attached squadrons operating H145 (Army for SAR and Air Force for SOF support) and separate from that a training center (Army) with a squadron of H135.


If i understand it right in Indonesia the five squadrons of the Penerbad all seem to operate a rather eclectic mix of helicopters (and fixed-wing aircraft) that doesn't seem much tied to a specific mission - outside Skadron 31 for air assault ? - and mostly seems to center around providing a generic squadron-sized attack support package of varying standard for troops the squadron isn't tied into in any particular way.

What exactly does the Indonesian army see in the MV-22 that would warrant the extra cost of this platform compared to helicopters wrt to their CONOPS? Speed and range advantages are great but where will these advantages prove important from an Indonesian perspective? Just asking.:)
Indonesia is among the Top 10 contributors to UN missions and sees maintaining this position as a stated political goal.

As part of this, Indonesia in 2015 pledged continuous availability of a TNI helicopter unit to UN Peacekeeping operations, and outside Bo-105 in Lebanon (withdrawn in 2018 over concerns for endurance and capability...) this has mostly been Mi-17 transport helicopters, e.g. in Darfur and Mali. The stated number of 8 aircraft would be sufficient to provide sustained deployability of the numbers usually sent on these missions.

In addition there's a handful remaining Aviocars built in the 70s as light transport aircraft in Army Aviation that could probably use replacement.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

From Pindad Official site, this light 4x4 seems design to replace current TNI Light 4x4 like Land Rover and Jeep. Local media put info from Pindad Official that it's using Engine and Transmission from Toyota Hilux. However the chassis seems developed by Pindad it self.

This's part to drive Pindad as main provider on 4x4 and 6x6 vehicle for TNI. The need for Light Trucks also seems aimed to standardise from Locally build Toyota, Hino and Mercedes. While Chechs TATRA from information from Media also in talk with local Partner (could be Pindad also) on potential building local facility for Heavy Trucks.
Indonesia did not have facility yet for Heavy Trucks, as locally produce Hino and Mercedes still can only be consider as Medium 6 wheel Trucks.

All are part of Government aim on maximizing Local Industry products for TNI and other Government Agency.
For every rich Defencetalk-member who is interested in the civillian version of the Pindad Maung, if Pindad go to put it on the market, it will be between Rp400 and 500 million. (The normal military version of the Maung is around Rp600.000.000)
Pindad Maung 5f0c75f3f12fc-1.jpgw1920.jpeg.jpg
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
For every rich Defencetalk-member who is interested in the civillian version of the Pindad Maung, if Pindad go to put it on the market, it will be between Rp400 and 500 million. (The normal military version of the Maung is around Rp600.000.000)
View attachment 47498View attachment 47499
If I did the currency conversion correctly, that works out to ~USD$35k. Which is around the price tag of a number of regular vehicles available in the US auto market. I do wonder what the cost to import it to the US would be...
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
If I did the currency conversion correctly, that works out to ~USD$35k. Which is around the price tag of a number of regular vehicles available in the US auto market. I do wonder what the cost to import it to the US would be...
Aren't Customs and the IRS a bunch of vampires? You'll be sucked dry cobber.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
There would also be insurance, not to mention getting registered with the Dept. of Motor Vehicles, and then the property taxes...
Jeez, we just pay GST of 15%, annual registration, insurance, warrant / certificate of fitness and the engineering assessment for the first warrant / certificate of fitness. So annual ergo is dependent upon the vehicle year and safety features but averages out at around $100 per annum. The WOF is about $38.00 six monthly unless your vehicle is 3 years or less old. Not sure about the COF because I don't own a diesel vehicle or heavy vehicle.
 
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