The Indonesian Army

Ananda

Well-Known Member
understand it right in Indonesia the five squadrons of the Penerbad all seem to operate a rather eclectic mix of helicopters (and fixed-wing aircraft) that doesn't seem much tied to a specific mission - outside Skadron 31 for air assault ? - and mostly seems to center around providing a generic squadron-sized attack support
The way Penerbad rotary wings being construct actually still influence much with US Army Air Cavalry concept originated in Vietnam era.
They got Bell 412 as Combat Transport with some of them equip with Weapons pylons, Scouts/Light Attack with NBO-105 that now being replace by Fennec, and Heavy Attack with AH-64E. This seems what they are aiming as standard.

Along the way come Mi-17V and Mi-35, which now combine to one hybrid squadron. Those Russian made Helicopter being procured begin at first decade for TNI-AD to get heavier Combat Transport then Bell 212/412 at the same time they also want to have Heavy Attack capabilities with Mi-35.
From what I gather from Media or even talk with Army personal (during Military Expo), they like what they can get from Mi-17V but not so much on Mi-35... especially now they can get access to AH-64E.

Problem with Russian assets in TNI is the support and maintenance cost infrastructure that need to be build in order to make those assets operate more efficiently. Vietnam or India don't have that problem since their support infrastructure build around mostly Russian assets, however Indonesia build more for Western assets. Like I said in this thread or other Indonesian thread, that's the main problem for TNI (especially the Army)in operating Russian assets now.

Back to Rotary Wings on Penerbad, what they are looking now is Heavy Weight Combat Transport. Seems there's a study by TNI-AD (only got a glimpse of that on local media and forums) on Heavy Transport with Mi-26, CH-53, CH-47 and MV-22 being look at. Seems the study preference goes to CH-47, thus again why this US DSCA on MV-22 being taken quite a surprise with many local media even political circle.
Regardless, Penerbad do have legitimate need for heavy rotary wing capabilities that seems already got support even in Parliament. However the talk are more to CH-47 and not MV-22.

As other rotary wings, Navy Aviation (Penerbal) just like Penerbad also using Western style construct with Fleet Support Transport (in the form of BO-105, BELL 412, and Super Puma), and ASW Helicopter (used to be Westland WASP now Panther).
For me Air Force rotary wings that need to be decided on this question on Heavy Transport. They're now focusing their rotary wings on Transport and CSAR with Super Puma and Caracall. This already enough for AF. Heavy Transport in opinion should belong to Army Aviation (Penerbad).

Just like Fixed Wing Transport, Penerbad and Penerbal should stay with their own Transport paradigm now on Light Transport only. Heavier Transport should belong to AF.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
@Ananda, the TNI is it’s own worse enemy with their super complicated logistics chain due to helicopter fleet diversity.

The respective CH-47F fleets acquired by Singapore and Australia are not problematic, as the flight decks of the Endurance and Canberra class ships can support its weight — to serve as lily pads during a HADR crisis — but the Makassar class is not designed to take the fill laden weight of a CH-47F (and it’s sling full load at the same time).

Due to the Indonesian Navy’s inability to refuel CH-47Fs at sea, the superior range of the Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey becomes more important to the other services who operate rotary aircraft.
 
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Ananda

Well-Known Member
Agree @OPSSG and the fight for commonality on overall TNI assets is a long and uphill battle. The move from Multi Years budgeting from Ministry of Finance plus the MinDef now begin to talk on sustainment package during procurement process are positive development that need to be maintain as standard practice.

Once I talk with an AF officer that joke, the need to differentiate procurement package and maintenance/support infrastructure package were aimed for some Politicall needs in Parliament. That's why some of those guys in Parliament reacted negatively with AH-64E package and now MV-22 package, due it's reduce rooms for their 'incremental' projects.

Personally I see MV-22 as combination of C-295 capabilities with Helicopter flexibility. I tend to see after it's cooling down, the path can be more done more smoothly as long as Bell involved DI on support/maintenance work.
Jokowi already stated that all procurement must give involvement with local industry. This's in part I tend to see as move on standardisation.
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member

Video on Airless Tires prototype by Army R&D Department (got it from you tube). Aim for Light 4x4 like previous Maung prototype, as the specs according to local media for 2-4 tons vehicle.

Seems the aim for run flat tires that capable to handle spikes and small Calibre shoot.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Europe has not a real heavy helicopter to offer. Eurocopter's NH-90 is inferieur in almost everything compared to the EC725, and Agusta-Westland's EH-101 is not such a great improvement. Besides that, we all know how the EH-101 acquisition ended up with the air force. (Looks like the airforce want to keep the sole EH-101 hidden in the hangar and close silently this case.)

And about the Su-35 saga.
Well, the Russians need to buy a lot of palm oil, textile and other products to make a chance to sell the Su-35. They also can order some LPDs from PAL, after all they need a lot of new LPDs the coming years, and those Project 11711 ships are not enough. But i dont think this scenario will ever happen.
I just read this....
....but still i dont expect any developments with the Su-35 acquisition.
 

Ahmad

Active Member
I just read this....
....but still i dont expect any developments with the Su-35 acquisition.
So far PT Pindad has got many order from Defense Minister. Total new contract for Pindad almost reach 2 billion USD
 

tonnyc

Active Member
Besides the 500 Pindad Maungs, what else?
Technically there are a bunch of "civilian" orders such as the ventilator orders and excavators included in that $2 billion, but the bulk of the order is 4 billion ammunition of various caliber worth 19 trillion rupiah ($1.3 billion). It's a multi-year order going to 2024 (roughly a billion ammunition per year). This isn't as exciting as news of the Harimau or Anoa, and thus didn't get much news coverage, but it's just as important.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Agree @OPSSG and the fight for commonality on overall TNI assets is a long and uphill battle. The move from Multi Years budgeting from Ministry of Finance plus the MinDef now begin to talk on sustainment package during procurement process are positive development that need to be maintain as standard practice.

Once I talk with an AF officer that joke, the need to differentiate procurement package and maintenance/support infrastructure package were aimed for some Politicall needs in Parliament. That's why some of those guys in Parliament reacted negatively with AH-64E package and now MV-22 package, due it's reduce rooms for their 'incremental' projects.

Personally I see MV-22 as combination of C-295 capabilities with Helicopter flexibility. I tend to see after it's cooling down, the path can be more done more smoothly as long as Bell involved DI on support/maintenance work.
Jokowi already stated that all procurement must give involvement with local industry. This's in part I tend to see as move on standardisation.
One thing most people forget to compare its the cabin size.
The CH-47 and Mi-17 have a quite wide cabin of around 2,3 meter. (As we can see below thats around 90").
The cabin of a V-22 has only a width of 1,80 m, thats even less than the EH-101, which is 2,00 m.

So the big question is, how does Penerbad want to use the heavy helicopters? Just for personnel and boxes, or also for light vehicles?

Looking to the video of the V-22, i dont think a light vehicle like the Landrover Defender will fit into.fig6_9.jpgV-22_Osprey_Seat_arrangement.PNG.png

 

Toptob

Active Member
Agree @OPSSG and the fight for commonality on overall TNI assets is a long and uphill battle. The move from Multi Years budgeting from Ministry of Finance plus the MinDef now begin to talk on sustainment package during procurement process are positive development that need to be maintain as standard practice.


Jokowi already stated that all procurement must give involvement with local industry. This's in part I tend to see as move on standardisation.
@Ananda could you explain how industry involvement is a move towards standardization? Is it because it indicates an increase in the scale of the procurement ambitions? So far I haven't really seen anything that indicates that the preferences of different services align with regard to which platforms they favor.

So would you say that this government could link the choices they make in different programs for different services, and let the decision in one program push certain choices onto other services. To force the adoption common systems across services in order to benefit from economies of scale and create a solid market and userbase to support and sustain the establishment and growth of local industrial capabilities?
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
could you explain how industry involvement is a move towards standardization? Is it because it indicates an increase in the scale of the procurement ambitions? So far I haven't really seen anything that indicates that the preferences of different services align with regard to which platforms they favor.
Basically the Administration even from previous administration has ambition to create integrated defense industry. Naturally if this happen more procurement will be source locally or involved local defense industry. Thus it will then involved the number of order to support them which in turn goes to standardise on equipment.


This is Pindad new product. The involvement by Pindad with Toyota Indonesia also part of the move to improve supply chain locally. If you go their site @Pindad.com it can be seen that what Pindad produce especially in munition become the standard used in Indonesian military. Pindad basically using different partner like Renault for their Anoa and Komodo which based on FAB and Sherpa and Australian Bushmaster for their MRV Sanca. This Maung basically using Toyota Hi-Lux engine and transmission to build what TNI hope as standard light 4x4 replacing Land Rover Defender and Jeep CJ-7.

On land equipment with Indonesia more developed Automotive Industry, just like Thailand there're more involvement on local industry for Army products. Local media also talk on Tatra talking with local Partner for Investment producing locally Heavy Trucks.
In Naval equipment, basically all patrol boats up to 60+m already build by local shipyards, as thus LST and LPD. The aim now for Corvettes and Frigates.

This can happen because civilian Automotive Industry and Shipyards availability in Indonesia already there. They just need to get guarantee for sustain order for them to build military grade products.

Problem more on Aero Industry, as eventough DI/IAe already exists, but there're no other local industry supporting DI as local supply chain. Thus it will be much harder despite Government political stands on local defense Industry to support Aerospace ambition. Indonesia must attract foreign Investment on aerospace as in Land and Sea already done.

Still the standing support for DI involvement is there, that's why DI partners like Airbus or Bell have better possitioning on Indonesian Aerospace Defense procurement.
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
Who is this Alman Helvas guy and what is his credibility level?
One of the guys that like to spread rumours in Indonesian Forums ;)

Seems some of Indonesian forumers especially in local forums like to quote that guy, since if not mistaken he used to work or contribute to Jane's.
I don't know, at least that what I read, when occasionally I stumbled into local forums.

I once posted in one of Indonesian threads in here, sometimes I stumbled to local Indonesian forums or social media that talk defense, just to see the rumours that circulate.
For me it's just rumours that should be taken as grain of salt as no official confirmation yet.

Considering how Indonesian MinDef and some Military brass it self like to spread 'rumours', then just take it as it is. Perhaps it's part of their actions to spread rumours for misdirection.
We've got several surprises like MV-22 or Austrian Eurofighters that come out not being expected by those rumours.

For me I'm not even put 60% as @Ahmad put, rumours is just less then 50%, considering the nature of Indonesian MinDef and TNI brass that also like to let some 'rumours' developed.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
From our defense journalist who has many insider from TNI or industry. PTDI looks like to get the contract if the plan is materialized.

For more than a decade it was the plan to order 5 EC725 in CSAR-configuration. I dont know how many TNI-AU already got, but if im not wrong they got at least 3 of them in 2017.

I dont know why he thinks that there is a chance that the CSAR-helicopters will be second hand foreign made ones, but it is almost guarenteed that it will be new ones made under licence by IPTN. The ones IPTN made do not have a inflight refueling boom, but are equipped with FADEC, a full glass cockpit, FLIR-sensor at the front, resque-hoist, mirrors and searchlight on the right side, 7,62 mm machine in a window on the left side and on one EC725 two rocketpods (probably with 2,75" rockets) were installed.
 

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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Today some remarkable photos appear on the internet.
A UH-60 with "BNPB" on it was spotted in Pekanbaru. It seems to be for the forest fires. And now pictures appear with an CH-47 being loaded into a An-124.

Remarkable that they did not use the helicopters from Penerbad or TNI-AU like the NBO-105, NAS-332 and Mi-17.
Probably it is also to evaluate the capabilities of the CH-47.
 

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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Ive found some more info about the BNPB rented helicopters.
 
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