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The Indonesian Army

Discussion in 'Army & Security Forces' started by DavidDCM, Mar 31, 2010.

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  1. OPSSG

    OPSSG Super Moderator Staff Member

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    I struggled to reply and waited a long time before going ahead, as earlier, I did not know how to explain it, without talking about TTPs in a long winded manner.
    A big 90mm gun does intimidate rebels and can be employed in a direct support role, if desperate. If the fight is urban, you need MBTS (otherwise it is misuse of armour assets) and supporting arms — especially mortars in an urban fight. As MBTS can’t be everywhere — takes up to a week to ship to remote locations — they are a stop gap.

    More importantly, a 90mm gun is easy to maintain for 365 deployment. As a plus, the rebels can’t steal a 90mm gun. ATGMs can be bought and sold. BTW, ATGMs especially the early generation ones were fragile. 10 to 30% would stop working after 1 year or less. Even modern ATGMs need good storage due to the optics and electronics — if you keep them in the field, you may need to check them throughout the life cycle.
    Same concept of operations — so no retraining to new doctrine is needed.
    Armoured recce role, with a 90mm gun. Its more French in origin as a doctrine but still valid — if it suits the TNI context and terrain. The SAF has had to evolve our methods of war due to changes in our threat matrix, terrain and possible IO by enemy.
    Ideally a battle group should have a good mix of weapons to deliver different effects. The 90mm gun can assist to break through strong points of rebel groups or act as a mobile armoured reserve to respond to counter attacks (i.e. reduce tactical options of rebel groups and reduce the chance of TNI units being over-run after a well planned rebel attack).
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
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  2. Ananda

    Ananda Well-Known Member

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  3. Ananda

    Ananda Well-Known Member

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    Pindad Tampilkan 3 Ranpur Terbaru di Defile HUT TNI, Apa Saja? - Tekno Tempo.co

    From Tempo Online:

    Pindad will shown 3 new Armoured Vehicle in TNI Anniversary day at 5th October. Putting vehicles in anniversary parade usually shown that vehicles already ready for operational.

    No new surprise on the vehicles, since it's already in development with Pindad:
    1. Pindad own development of 90mm gun Armoured Vehicle Badak,
    2. Medium Tank Pindad developed with FNSS,
    3. 8x8 IFV Developed from Czech Pandur.
     
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  4. Sandhi Yudha

    Sandhi Yudha Active Member

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    A nice overview video from the latest Hari ABRI.

    Dirgahayu TNI!

    Ive to watch the video to check if the vehicles you mentioned above were in the parade.
     
  5. Stampede

    Stampede Active Member

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    May not be a MBT, but I think I spotted a few bushmaster's in the Parade.

    To think back in the day only about 300 were to be produced for the ADF only.
    A quiet success story that have now served a number of defence forces

    Regards S
     
  6. Ananda

    Ananda Well-Known Member

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    Found this on Pikiran Rakyat online, Local media from Bandung. Seems this is new iteration on Pindad Komodo. Pindad seems manage to convince TNI and Mindef to use them as standard 4x4.
     

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  7. Sandhi Yudha

    Sandhi Yudha Active Member

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    Dynamic Test V R HAN 122B. Its a program which already start in 2005, to develop and produce area-saturation artillery rockets to be used for the RM-70 and Type-90B multiple rocket launchers. Its actually a quite simple weapon, an unguided rocket, but the development takes so much time, undoubtly because of lack of budget.
     
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  8. Ananda

    Ananda Well-Known Member

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    D&S 2019: PT Pindad partners Paramount on defence production | Jane's 360

    An article from Jane's on Pindad cooperation with South Africa Paramount Group. Eventough the article indicating the cooperation will focus on Pindad's FNSS Medium Tank (I suspect on add on Armoured protection modules), but from previous information Pindad also already in talk with Paramount on 20mm-30mm gun turret for their IFV.
     
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  9. Sandhi Yudha

    Sandhi Yudha Active Member

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  10. Ananda

    Ananda Well-Known Member

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    Avibras Indústria Aeroespacial S/A - Missiles and Rockets

    That's from Avibras sites, which shown several potential missile that can be incorporated to their Astros II MLRS. From what I gather on several sources, one of reason TNI choose Astros II is willingness from Avibras to support TNI and Indonesian Defense Industry on developing Astros multiple rockets and missile integration.
    Whether using Avibras originated rockets and missile or using others including domestic developed ones.

    In such using MLRS as coastal defense is not a new concept. What need to be seen is how far TNI will developed Natuna's integrated defense network.
     
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  11. OPSSG

    OPSSG Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Brazil has developed a range of rocket motors of different sizes (for 127mm, to 180mm, to 300mm rockets) with different ranges and payload capacity, giving them technical know how that Indonesia can learn from (instead of reinventing the wheel).

    If the TNI has dual-purpose submunitions in its inventory (these would look like small cylindrical bells with a ribbon at one end, contain an armor-piercing shaped charge and a large number of 3.5mm steel spheres). Depending on type of submunitions, they can explode in mid-air, or on impact (blast effect) and to spray the steel spheres over a wide area (fragmentation effect). Submunitions are very effective against armour columns and a battery of Astros II firing an barrage directed by a forward observer can kill an entire battalion of tanks and armoured personnel carriers.

    The ASTROS II ARS will be issued to two battalions of the Indonesian Army each with 18 launchers, which will be split into three batteries, each with six launchers and be deployed in West Java and East Java as part of the Strategic Reserve Command. These will complement the towed artillery systems currently deployed by the Indonesian Army and provide a suppressive firepower capability at long range, which it currently lacks. The ASTROS II ARS will fire the SS-60 300mm rocket, which has a minimum range of 20km and a maximum range of 60km, and the SS-80 300mm rocket, which has a range of 20-80km. In the longer term, the system would be capable of firing rockets with guidance system to provide a more precision effect.
    It’s a factor to complicate the plans of any potential invader. But it’s effectiveness depends on the TNI’s ISR and counter radar artillery capability to detect such enemy mobile armoured columns or destroy enemy forces on beachheads. Rocket artillery systems are shoot and scoot — so well suited for high intensity warfare — a modernisation yardstick to aim for in doctrine development.

    The Malaysians have paired their Astros II with their Arthur counter artillery radar as a system to kill any enemy artillery system within range of any of their Astros II battery. Their system is designed kill Singapore troops within 20 mins of detection, so Malaysian artillery are quick in their response time due to tight radar shooter integration at their division artillery support system — certainly faster than Saddam‘s Iraqi Army’s artillery formations in 1991. Likewise, Singapore uses a similar combination of PRIMUS (155 mm/39 calibre — 30km range), HIMARS (227mm M270 rockets — 72km range), the SAFARI Weapon Locating Radar (WLR) and UAVs to support the army division — which is by design, long ranged (over 72km) with a slightly faster response time as part of the divisional artillery brigade. By way of background, Singapore’s latest SAFARI WLR (Elta Systems ELM-2311 C-RAM) has replaced our outdated Arthur radar (which was deployed to Afghanistan) and the new system was commissioned on 28 September 2016.


    The TNI and the SAF train together and have a record of working together. From 17 to 26 Sep 2019, the two neighbours successfully conducted the 31st edition of Exercise Safkar Indopura, that involved 470 personnel, comprising troops from Headquarters 3rd SIB and 5th Battalion, SIR from the Singapore Army, as well as troops from the 16th Mechanised Infantry Brigade and the 512th, 516th and 521st Mechanised Infantry Battalions from the TNI-AD. Motorisation with armour protection, supported by Leopard 2s and self propelled artillery is a huge doctrinal advance in the combined arms capabilities for both the TNI and SAF. Near the end of this Indonesian video, they show a map of the area being defended — it is a huge manoeuvre area, with troops moving long distances to get to the fight.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019 at 6:41 AM
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  12. OPSSG

    OPSSG Super Moderator Staff Member

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    The Indonesian Army (TNI) has upgraded and created 60 new territorial and combat units since 2002, including territorial and KOSTRAD units and infantry battalions in Kalimantan, Papua and Sulawesi. Since 2003, the TNI has formed new and upgraded existing infantry battalions into 42 raider battalions. Each Raider battalion has 810 and larger than the normal battalions of around 570 infantrymen. Raider infantrymen are trained to perform ambushes, air assault operations, while Raider infantrymen in the mechanized battalions are also trained in mechanized and urban warfare operations. For the army leadership at least, the expansion plans partly reflect the competitive relationship between the police and the military at the local level. Following the separation of the police from the military in 1999, the two security institutions have struggled to coexist given the overlap in authority in local jurisdictions (see: Journey to the east? The rebalancing of Indonesia’s force structure | The Strategist).

    The Natuna Integrated TNI Unit at Natuna Besar Island would eventually be a sprawling facility hosting composite Indonesian battalions from the Army and Marines. The TNI launched the unit’s composite battalion in August 2018 initially with only two raider companies drawn from the existing local command. IMO, a mobile defence plan by the Natuna Integrated TNI Unit will force the enemy to fight at a place and time that the TNI chooses.
    • The TNI’s 1st line of defence should be Harpoon armed F-16s to target enemy ships before they get start launching landing craft.
    • The 2nd line of defence should be the Apaches and conventional wheeled artillery to support outnumbered TNI defenders against enemy landing forces, at the beachhead and at the landing zones, further in-land — and for the TNI to set traps for the attackers and keep them isolated (instead of allowing them to link up).
    • As a 3rd line of defence, MLRS is steel rain and use of submunitions would make them very effective against even enemy landing craft and AAVs (or its Chinese equivalent) in the water in the simplest invasion scenario. It is not so simple to fire the MLRS, as the TNI will need to deconflict the air space for its own helicopters and other air assets (before it can positively ID the enemy and fire on them).
    The Indonesian Navy completed parts of its Natuna base and other facilities, but its Marines composite battalion is under development. The Indonesian Air Force hangars and facilities also remain works in progress. The TNI plans to establish tri-service ‘integrated TNI units’ across Indonesia’s key strategic outer islands. The first of these units was launched in Natuna. There are also plans to establish other tri-service integrated units in Saumlaki, Morotai, Biak, and Merauke.

    By hiding the MLRS in the earlier phases of TNI’s defence of any of the 17,000 islands, the enemy will be forced to launch numerous fighter sorties to hunt and kill the MLRS with cluster munitions (in the same class as the CBU-105 Sensor Fuzed Weapon). Amphibious operations to invade any Indonesian Island are complex, requiring close co-ordination from the air, from the sea and on land — often simultaneously. The lodgement of the first battalion of enemy troops in the 1st phase will be in logical in the face of expected resistance — the TNI will have to dislodge these initial forces and follow on enemy brigade within the same day, by spoiling counter attack. The invading enemy may use decoys and have a detailed plan to make life difficult for the TNI as defenders (so it is important not to follow the script set by the attackers).


    Against a capable amphibious Marine landing force (eg PLA(N) marines or other enemy) trying to land a brigade plus sized force in the first week, I would prefer that the TNI use the MLRS system to support a motorised counter attacking force (as a 4th and final line of defence), rather than use it so early at the beach (3rd line of defence), as Natuna Besar Island really needs a brigade to defend effectively. The Battalion Composite 1 / Gardapati and stationed at Natuna Besar Island is an unique battle group with additional resources for HADR missions that includes an Astros II battery. Any early use of the MLRS by the TNI, as defenders, only serve to help the enemy detect the system (which has a huge launch radar signature that WLR systems can easily detect).
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
  13. Feanor

    Feanor Super Moderator Staff Member

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    With Indonesia operating a hodge-podge of mismatched Flanker variants, I wonder if they have any plans to incorporate the X-35U into their coastal defense arsenal. They only have a small F-16 fleet, so increasing available carriers for AShMs seems like a good idea.

    They could also look at including an AShM option on their MLRS, by switching out the packet from unguided indirect-fire rockets to maybe a packet of 2 AShMs.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 25, 2019
  14. OPSSG

    OPSSG Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Glad to see the TNI take a crawl, walk, run philosophy to building capability. I congratulate TNI for their smooth execution, enhanced training and doctrinal change to raise, train and sustain the elite soldiers of the 42 Raider battalions, which serve as special operations capable, first responders to local crisis and deployable to provide support to police, should the need arise.

    The increased focus on intelligence collection along with local knowledge will increase the effectiveness of these Raider battalions — on the Global Terrorism Index 2019, Indonesia is stable and now ranked 35 (a score of 5.070 out of 10) in sharp contrast with the insecurity of the Philipines, ranked 9 (a score of 7.137 out of 10) and Thailand at number 18 (a score of 6.029 out of 10).
    I suspect acquiring land based AShMS is not a priority, especially if you look at the limited troops numbers allocated to this particular geography — it is not a divisional command nor is it a brigade command. The Indonesians are unable to allocate enough troops (with only a composite battalion in Natuna Besar Island plus 2 raider companies in Batam and Bintan) to guard the 272 islands of the Natuna Regency, much less the 1,796 islands of the Riau province.

    Realistically, the TNI’s priority should be investing in increasing the mobility of the composite battalion (to deploy for HADR or other internal security missions) and they are not building capability entirely around China’s rise. In this regard, the four existing Indonesian ships of the Teluk Bintuni-class (120 x 18 metres) and the five Makassar-class (125 x 22 metres) ships would improve inter-Island mobility. A look at the broad picture shows that internal security, counter terrorism (with the return of ISIS fighters), cross border piracy and little regional tensions are also areas of concern for Indonesia.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
  15. Ananda

    Ananda Well-Known Member

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    So far from what TNI-AU info to public, only two Air Surface missiles capable of anti shipping that they have in inventory. AGM 65 for F-16 and Hawk 200, and KS 29 for Flankers. Those two eventough consider effective ASM, but relative shorter range.

    For coastal defense SSM, the ones being touted for that was Chinese 705. With then plan to build it locally, TNI and MinDef initially will used them for Fast Missile Boats and Coastal defense.
    However seems the talk with China breakdown, eventough small number of that missile already come as trials. Also couple of them already being tested in front of President and did not perform well.
    Anyway I already posted before (forgot in which thread), that there's program by MinDef to used that missile as based on Indigenous SSM. Also in local forum and Twitter there's once photos in Indonesia wind tunnel facility of mock up missile which showing much resemblance to Chinese C-705 being tested.

    There's also talk with Avibras for inquiry on their SSM still under development. In short there are clear interest by MinDef for coastal defense SSM, potentially using Astros II as launcher. However what kind of missile going to be used, that's still rumours.
    Also being rumours that Avibras is willing to help installment of SSM even if Indonesia choose using indigenous design (instead what Avibras developing).
     
  16. Sandhi Yudha

    Sandhi Yudha Active Member

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    T
    The Kh-31s used by TNI-AU are from the SEAD version, Kh-31P, isn't it?

    Its indeed remarkable that Indonesia does not have decent aircraft launched anti-ship missiles.

    What about land based systems like the K-300P Bastion P? Its is based on the P800 Oniks and the navy has experience with the surface vessel launched export version of it, the Yakhont 3M55.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
  17. Ananda

    Ananda Well-Known Member

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    There's no shore based SSM system that even in planning, besides some talks on C 705 few years ago to be used as Ships based SSM on Fast Missile Boats and potential shore based units.
    The talk on land based SSM so far only potential, and I don't see any serious development on that. There's rumours that French also offered for developing shorw based Exocet mm40 blk 3, but so far in my opinion it is just rumours.

    Yes, local forum used to have some talks on building shore based on Russian Bastiop P system after Navy trial launch Yakhont. However Yakhont is never been installed outside one Van Speijk, same as Chinese C-802 that being installed on the other Van Speijk frigates.
    Seems to me, Navy only trial Yakhont and C-802 on two Van Speijk, as potential replacement for Harpoon that already past expiration date. However there are no plan to used them extensive, thus the talk of Bastion shore based SSM just become some talk/wish lists from local defense enthusiats in local forum.

    I was once have bit interest on potential shore based Exocet mm40 blk 3, considering despite talk on Russian Yakhont, or Chinese C-802 and C-705, the only SSM that so far seems getting tractions is Exocet MM40 blk3. However, again all so far just rumours and I don't see anything substantial being developed to that direction.

    That's why I said in my previous post, the Astros II being put in Natuna potentially can be developed to be used as shore based SSM launchers. However that's still a potential, based on what Avibras developing and not on what TNI will do.
     
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  18. Ananda

    Ananda Well-Known Member

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    This is video from CNN Indonesia on recent exhibition in MinDef on Local Defense Industry. Specifically Private Owned Defense Industry.

    Since previous administration, Politically Indonesian MinDef has to prioritize local defense industry on procurement projects. This mostly related to area where local industry already able to supplied, or in projects with foreign supplier that need to bring local partner for domestic customisation.

    Now, Jokowi bring his Presidential Rival Prabowo as Defense Minister to be task on further revitalize Local Defense Industry whether it's State Owned or Private Owned. This to answer critics that current administration only prioritize State Owned Enterprise (SOE) in it's project, but also due to the fact many SOE especially in Defense Industry are still not efficient enough. In fact recently Finance Ministry as the main shareholder of SOE, still consider most of SOE in defense are still in weak financial conditions despite repeated Government capital injection.

    In shipbuilding, some private companies shipyards already prove they are more efficient and reliable than some SOE shipyards. However, I still see in land armament they are still not shown abilities to compete in similar level with SOE. In short we will see if Prabowo capable to bring more effective procurement process, and in same time revatilize Defense Industry.
     
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