So that's about US$9.6 billion if I've got my decimal point in the right place. Not bad.
The Indonesian Army
- Thread starter DavidDCM
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
Ngati, the most important thing is not just the size of budget, but the treatment of procurement from annual budget consideration toward multi years Investment concept.
The concept of multi years procurement projects instead usual annual budget thinking already being prepared by previous administration toward their last year in the office. However previous Defence Minister and his MinDef and some of Jokowi's cabinet still stuck in annual budget thinking which make them only think in how much we can afford this year with our budget, instead multi years procurement projects which then divided on annual installment of Investment costs.
Now Jokowi and Prabowo already talk with MinDef to change procurement thinking paradigm toward Multi Years Investment projects. This is being done by many countries in region like Singapore and Australia, which treat any defense procurement as multi years project, and not just what project that fit this year budget. Will this be done in disciplined manners..will see on that.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
So, the first of 22 Pandurs (which got for some reason the local name of Kobra) are being delivered now.
Panser Kobra pesanan Kemhan RI dari Ceko mulai berdatangan
Im curious about the ToT...is it just maintenance, or installing of some components? It looks like these things are delivered completely, including the equipment from 'Elbit Systems Brazil' and Rafael....and we all know what kind of companies these are.
Panser Kobra pesanan Kemhan RI dari Ceko mulai berdatangan
Im curious about the ToT...is it just maintenance, or installing of some components? It looks like these things are delivered completely, including the equipment from 'Elbit Systems Brazil' and Rafael....and we all know what kind of companies these are.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
The Pindad official statement on this project stated the agreement is for them to get ToT/Tech Transfer for manufacturing.
However seems at this first batch they got basic vehicle from Czech and they are doing customisation and system integration job.
Got no other confirmation yet on how the manufacturing stages will be.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
New facility on PT. Pindad from the company's web site. This facility seems more for mechanical gun support such as Turret and RCWS. However the site also told that the facility will also build UAV. Unlike UAV build by DI and LAPAN, it's more to support Army units. This seems it's more to short range Small UAV supporting company deployment or for Artillery battery.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
From Turkish Aksam online. Photos of FNSS-PINDAD Harimau/Tiger Medium Tank on trial. Pindad already got what it seems as First Batch of production order for 18 Tanks. Related to previous post, Pindad new facility will produce turret for 105mm gun on this Tank and also 90mm gun for Badak Armoured Vehicle.
I am a big fan of the Harimau Medium Tank design. The 105mm maim gun can kill any PT-91 Twardy and STANAG 4569 level 4 protection means this medium tank can withstand 14.5×114mm AP rounds at 200 meters. More than enough protection in many cases (except urban warfare).
From Turkish Aksam online. Photos of FNSS-PINDAD Harimau/Tiger Medium Tank on trial. Pindad already got what it seems as First Batch of production order for 18 Tanks. Related to previous post, Pindad new facility will produce turret for 105mm gun on this Tank and also 90mm gun for Badak Armoured Vehicle.
I am however not a fan of the 90mm gun on a wheeled fire support platform. It is tactically useable but difficult to employ in our terrain correctly, due to limited firing arcs.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
PT. Pindad (Persero) - Badak 6x6
pindad.com
Badak is still result of counter insurgencies mind set of TNI-AD leadership. The description that Pindad put shown that..high speed and relative long range put this asset more to Scouts duty and hit and run tactics. It's shown usage that reflects anti guerilla operation.
I believe tonnyc once put in his posts how the Army leadership still reflect on old school thinking. Only now TNI leadership begin to embrace more cyber and network thinking and begin more training on that. Something that many Armed Forces already done it two decades ago. Some more mechanical thinking begin to change in TNI, they're begin to try attract more tech mind set recruits. Still they have to change more. The way the district command structure, still reflects on how the Dutch East Indies army (KNIL) did their operation close to 100 years ago.
Only several elite commands like Kopasus or Kostrad that more in tune on modern warfare. Thus this combination reflects on what assets they are procured. Harimau Medium Tank shown more modern peer to peer mind set, while Badak still more on traditional anti guerilla mind set.
This is also reflected in other branches like AF, while younger generation officers that prepared planning hope for AEW and ISTAR and area support assets (like MRTT), some of the older brass still want to have MORE high profile Fighters first.
Thus I still see the procurement seems shown some compromise on old traditional anti guerilla area denials thinking, and more mobile network oriented and precision thinking.
@Ananda, being prepared to conduct counter-insurgency operations is must for a modern army and the Badak is a good protected platform for the TNI (much better than Singapore’s retired V-200 fleet). I attended V-200 familiarisation training in the past. Therefore, I understand the role of the Badak.
I have a slightly different view from you — at tactics level, the TNI is sound. The big advance for both the TNI and the SAF is motorisation of our infantry units (beyond just having armoured brigades equipped with Leopard 2s and tracked armoured infantry fighting vehicles)!
Training with Indonesian troops at Exercise Safkar Indopura, the SAF’s response for motorisation (and to adapt to counter-insurgency and urban operations), is the twin introduction of the amphibious 8x8 Terrex (with its automatic gunfire locator to triangulate gunfire location) and the Belrex logistics support vehicles (which are Marauder MRAPs used to replace the SAF’s existing fleet of 5 tonner trucks) in our infantry brigades to meet the threat of IEDs and RPGs. See: Singapore and Indonesian Armies Conduct 2019 series of its annual Bilateral Exercise. For Exercise Safkar Indopura 2018, we conducted a full-troop exercise with a battalion-level combined arms live-firing component in Indonesia using both Leopard 2 MBTs and wheeled armour. The 2018 joint exercise involved 460 personnel, comprising troops from the 3rd Singapore Infantry Brigade (that included troops from 2 SIR, and 48 SAR), from Singapore, as well as troops from the 16th Mechanised Brigade, the 512th and 516th Mechanised Battalions, and the 8th Cavalry Battalion from Indonesia.
I am really sad at the downward trajectory for Malaysia-Singapore relations that has occurred since Dec 2018 and hope that Singapore will never have to use the Terrex and Belrex for forward defence (directed northwards) in my lifetime.
I have a slightly different view from you — at tactics level, the TNI is sound. The big advance for both the TNI and the SAF is motorisation of our infantry units (beyond just having armoured brigades equipped with Leopard 2s and tracked armoured infantry fighting vehicles)!
Training with Indonesian troops at Exercise Safkar Indopura, the SAF’s response for motorisation (and to adapt to counter-insurgency and urban operations), is the twin introduction of the amphibious 8x8 Terrex (with its automatic gunfire locator to triangulate gunfire location) and the Belrex logistics support vehicles (which are Marauder MRAPs used to replace the SAF’s existing fleet of 5 tonner trucks) in our infantry brigades to meet the threat of IEDs and RPGs. See: Singapore and Indonesian Armies Conduct 2019 series of its annual Bilateral Exercise. For Exercise Safkar Indopura 2018, we conducted a full-troop exercise with a battalion-level combined arms live-firing component in Indonesia using both Leopard 2 MBTs and wheeled armour. The 2018 joint exercise involved 460 personnel, comprising troops from the 3rd Singapore Infantry Brigade (that included troops from 2 SIR, and 48 SAR), from Singapore, as well as troops from the 16th Mechanised Brigade, the 512th and 516th Mechanised Battalions, and the 8th Cavalry Battalion from Indonesia.
I am really sad at the downward trajectory for Malaysia-Singapore relations that has occurred since Dec 2018 and hope that Singapore will never have to use the Terrex and Belrex for forward defence (directed northwards) in my lifetime.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
Agree on that @OPSSG , perhaps I need to clarify what I mean is more on the traditional anti guerilla counter-insurgency approach versus more progressive counter-insurgency approach.
The example on the choice of 90mm low pressure gun compare to 30mm chain gun. Nothing wrong with 90mm aside if I read on how this thinking more on getting 90mm for gun support of Infantry and scouts thus rather old school approach.
At the same time TNI AD also ask Pindad to prepared 30mm chain gun turret (on different armoured vehicle), thus shown more progressive thinking. This what I meant with compromise on traditional and progressive thinking on procurement, which reflects the difference on TNI commands between Old School and More Progressive mind set.
1. If I may, I would like to clarify that Indonesia needs both a counter-insurgency strategy (hearts & minds campaign) and a counter-terrorism strategy. The return of ISIS fighters to South East Asia increases the threat level. Increasingly, it will be more common to see fidayeen attacks like:
(i) the 26 Nov 2008 terrorist attack in Mumbai; and
(ii) the 21 Sep 2013 attack Westgate Mall in Nairobi, Kenya.
These attacks demonstrate the use of bold, complex, terror tactics to target civilians in mass casualty events (see this 2016 RSIS article: Cities under siege). In both cases, the response was slow, piecemeal, and confused. The various agencies involved in responding to the terrorist assault were unable to coordinate with one another. Moreover, the police units that initially responded were simply outgunned due to inadequate training and lack of requisite firearms. The Badak is a good protected platform for the TNI to augment any police response during a fidayeen attack (or urban suicide attack).
2. Further, on 13 Nov 2015, eight IS operatives divided into three teams attacked seven different locations in Paris, murdering at least 130 and wounding at least 352 in less than 60 minutes. The attacks targeting a stadium, multiple restaurants, and a concert hall in Paris demonstrated a great degree of coordination and use of multiple tactics, resulting in higher casualties. The attackers were equipped with assault rifles and explosive-laden suicide belts, and operated in a manner reflecting prior training. They maintained a high degree of operational security. The attack was planned in Belgium, giving the terrorists opportunities to discuss operational details free of surveillance by French intelligence, which despite its failures in thwarting the terrorist operation is large, more proactive. During a terrorist commando assault of the 3 incidents mentioned, there is no intent by the attackers to take hostages or negotiate with law enforcement. The longer the attackers remain operational, the more victims will be killed or injured in the attack. Rapid response by available law enforcement and security forces, even if disorganised as seen in the initial response in both Nairobi and Mumbai, saves lives during the early phase of an active shooter attack.
3. What the TNI lacks is a command and control system that is tightly integrated with the police (and other civil defence related agencies), so that the army can act in concert with the rest of the government when called upon.
(i) the 26 Nov 2008 terrorist attack in Mumbai; and
(ii) the 21 Sep 2013 attack Westgate Mall in Nairobi, Kenya.
These attacks demonstrate the use of bold, complex, terror tactics to target civilians in mass casualty events (see this 2016 RSIS article: Cities under siege). In both cases, the response was slow, piecemeal, and confused. The various agencies involved in responding to the terrorist assault were unable to coordinate with one another. Moreover, the police units that initially responded were simply outgunned due to inadequate training and lack of requisite firearms. The Badak is a good protected platform for the TNI to augment any police response during a fidayeen attack (or urban suicide attack).
2. Further, on 13 Nov 2015, eight IS operatives divided into three teams attacked seven different locations in Paris, murdering at least 130 and wounding at least 352 in less than 60 minutes. The attacks targeting a stadium, multiple restaurants, and a concert hall in Paris demonstrated a great degree of coordination and use of multiple tactics, resulting in higher casualties. The attackers were equipped with assault rifles and explosive-laden suicide belts, and operated in a manner reflecting prior training. They maintained a high degree of operational security. The attack was planned in Belgium, giving the terrorists opportunities to discuss operational details free of surveillance by French intelligence, which despite its failures in thwarting the terrorist operation is large, more proactive. During a terrorist commando assault of the 3 incidents mentioned, there is no intent by the attackers to take hostages or negotiate with law enforcement. The longer the attackers remain operational, the more victims will be killed or injured in the attack. Rapid response by available law enforcement and security forces, even if disorganised as seen in the initial response in both Nairobi and Mumbai, saves lives during the early phase of an active shooter attack.
3. What the TNI lacks is a command and control system that is tightly integrated with the police (and other civil defence related agencies), so that the army can act in concert with the rest of the government when called upon.
- For contrast, the SAF’s Special Operations Command Centre (SOCC) is able to process information from multiple sources including Whole-of-Government sensors, the SAF's internal sources and last-mile surveillance assets such as drones to collate a synchronised situation picture. The integrated structure allows seamless access and sharing of information between the counter-terrorism shooters and other government agencies, strengthening cooperation during joint operations.
- Unlike the TNI, Singapore’s SOCC is also linked with homeland security, the Police and other civil defence related agencies, so that the country can act in concert with the rest of the government when called upon. The networked centre leverages technology to support operational planning and coordination, that includes the cyber domain for improving sense-making for better situational awareness.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
Yes, I do agree with the need of TNI for Counter Insurgencies and Anti Terrorism need. In fact those thinking still dominate many TNI leadership. However I just want to see their doctrine are more balanced with the need against potential external threat, and multi dimensions warfare. The younger officers seems more inclined on multi dimensions warfare. Hope they can influence more balance posture and development of necessary mind set.
Just add thread on JGSDF, and I see how JGSDF Type 16 being used as what you suggest on Badak roles on Urban anti terrorist and guerilla warfare. For me I just want to see they (TNI) are developing more network centric and multi dimensions assessment on their operation.
@Ananda, I think there is some news on tentative plans by PT. Pindad to upgrade suspension and other systems for future versions of the Badak (or some other new vehicle) by working with Timoney Holdings Limited — specify and use better parts, like the improved driveline system, the transfer case, the control system and steering, to improve reliability and survivability.
If that is done (and money is really spent to improve the suspension system), then the Badak can be stable enough to take a 90mm gun.
The suspension system of the Japanese Type 16 is pretty capable — which makes it a really expensive vehicle. Likewise, the Taiwanese 8x8 CM-32 Yunpao ("Clouded Leopard") fire support vehicle can mount a 105mm gun. That is also stable and expensive.
If that is done (and money is really spent to improve the suspension system), then the Badak can be stable enough to take a 90mm gun.
The suspension system of the Japanese Type 16 is pretty capable — which makes it a really expensive vehicle. Likewise, the Taiwanese 8x8 CM-32 Yunpao ("Clouded Leopard") fire support vehicle can mount a 105mm gun. That is also stable and expensive.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
Yes, PINDAD also have design with FNSS to develop Harimau Hull for APC/IFV version. They also in talk with FNSS to join development of Amphibious Tanks. Perhaps based on what FNSS already have.
IDEF 2019: FNSS Launches ZAHA Marine Assault Vehicle
FNSS launched its ambitious, much anticipated and full-featured Zırhlı Amfibi Hücum Araçları (ZAHA) or Marine Assault Vehicle (MAV) at IDEF on 1 May.The vehicle has been eagerly awaited by industry and observers alike, since it occupies a space in the military inventory that very few oth...
www.monch.com
Indonesia and Turkey looking to strengthen defense ties
Turkey and Indonesia are working on several defense projects, including an armored personnel carrier and remotely steered weapons systems learned GDC quoting defense officials of PT Pindad. PT Pind…
www.globaldefensecorp.com
Point is, PINDAD continue to put money for more advance design based on partnership or further improve development on their own design.
Good news so far seems Jokowi's second term administration has more definite plan on developing domestic defense Industry. Hopefully the implementation will not be bogged down like in the first term.
Yes, and this is still the area that TNI need to put their effort and mind set more, as what I put in my earlier post. This where training and recruits need more changes. More technical talent need to be recruits by TNI, to make them able to work on that.
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Remember this? Pindad signed another development contract with the ministry of defense (article is in Indonesian). This time though the gun is a 30 mm autocannon RCWS instead of that ridiculous 105 mm cannon. I am still skeptical on the need for such a boat, but a 30 mm autocannon makes this merely an oversized gun for an 18 m boat but one I can still kinda see.
Edit: gawd, that 105 mm gun concept was from 2016. Four years wasted on that ridiculous overcompensation.
Sadly the Tank Boat madness continues — this time with a 30mm remote weapon system. It is a poor concept looking for an imagined tactical problem to solve. The need to make the 18 metre Tank Boat float means it is very lightly armored. In that respect, the Tank Boat is indeed much more like a boat than a tank. At the same time, it is expected to engage targets that require a 105-mm gun to destroy in a direct fire support role. And it can sink. You can see the potential problem here.
PT Pindad (Persero) signed a Tank Boat development project contract on 11 March 2020. The contract was signed by the Director General of Defense Potential (Dirjen Pothan), represented by the Secretary General of Pothan, Brigadier General Aribowo Teguh Santoso and Pindad Managing Director, Abraham Mose. PT Pindad (Persero) acts as a Lead Integrator consortium and weapons system provider that is responsible for ensuring specifications and designs that are appropriate for the user. Pindad is also responsible for the Tank Boat management program and integrates its weapons system.
PT Lundin Industry Invest is responsible for the platform (machinery, systems and electrical), PT Len Industri (Persero) is responsible for making Communication Devices (Alkom), while PT Hariff Daya Tunggal Engineering is responsible for the Battlefield Management System (BMS). See: PT. Pindad (Persero) - Pindad Tandatangani Kontrak Pengembangan Tank Boat
PT Lundin is the company that built a 63m fast missile trimaran worth US$12 million (that was lost to a fire in Sept 2012). The fire on KRI Klewang reportedly happened during maintenance and resulted in the loss of the brand new fast missile trimaran.
I have seen naval application of 120mm mortars, in an indirect fire support role (for targets 6 to 8km away) but not on this proposed Indonesian Tank Boat (in a direct fire support role) that is just a little strange from a tactical perspective. Finland's Patria NEMO 120mm mortar installed on a boat (or installed as a container on a boat), is a case in point.
PT Pindad (Persero) signed a Tank Boat development project contract on 11 March 2020. The contract was signed by the Director General of Defense Potential (Dirjen Pothan), represented by the Secretary General of Pothan, Brigadier General Aribowo Teguh Santoso and Pindad Managing Director, Abraham Mose. PT Pindad (Persero) acts as a Lead Integrator consortium and weapons system provider that is responsible for ensuring specifications and designs that are appropriate for the user. Pindad is also responsible for the Tank Boat management program and integrates its weapons system.
PT Lundin Industry Invest is responsible for the platform (machinery, systems and electrical), PT Len Industri (Persero) is responsible for making Communication Devices (Alkom), while PT Hariff Daya Tunggal Engineering is responsible for the Battlefield Management System (BMS). See: PT. Pindad (Persero) - Pindad Tandatangani Kontrak Pengembangan Tank Boat
PT Lundin is the company that built a 63m fast missile trimaran worth US$12 million (that was lost to a fire in Sept 2012). The fire on KRI Klewang reportedly happened during maintenance and resulted in the loss of the brand new fast missile trimaran.
The Lundin fast boat design, if it is sufficiently armoured, is top heavy and in choppy waters can more easily capsize with a 105mm gun on top (than having a smaller 30mm gun).tonnyc said:
I have seen naval application of 120mm mortars, in an indirect fire support role (for targets 6 to 8km away) but not on this proposed Indonesian Tank Boat (in a direct fire support role) that is just a little strange from a tactical perspective. Finland's Patria NEMO 120mm mortar installed on a boat (or installed as a container on a boat), is a case in point.
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John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Have to admit that containerized 120 mm mortar on that small ship is neat. Maybe the RCN should try one out on their AOPS. so it can get a little respect.
In other news, 3 Indonesian Military (TNI) personnel were dishonorably discharged and sentenced to prison after a military tribunal found them guilty of supplying thousands rounds of ammunition to an armed rebel group in Papua. The 3 TNI personnel, who had been previously stationed in Timika, appeared before a military tribunal led by Lt. Col. M. Idris in Jayapura on Tuesday afternoon, as reported by Antara news agency.
The military court found them guilty of selling thousands of rounds of ammunition to an armed rebel group.
The Patria NEMO system is high end and unique but really not very useful tactically except in specific littoral or riverine applications. Countries like Finland, Sweden and Singapore have navies that are designed to fight in the littorals by geographical necessity (that includes coastal forces and coastal artillery) — unlike Canada, as a centric frigate navy designed to operate in coalition with other NATO members.
South Korea’s PKX-B are fitted with the LIG Nex1/Hanwha 130mm guided rocket launcher at the stern (suited for their unique requirements at the Northern Limit Line) — these are more slightly more suited for future Canadian frigates. IMHO, the Canadian Navy, whose naval patrols more conventional in nature, does not need the LIG Nex1/Hanwha 130mm guided rocket launcher.
The military court found them guilty of selling thousands of rounds of ammunition to an armed rebel group.
Please nooooo.... to further off-topic discussions or I may have to ban myself.Have to admit that containerized 120 mm mortar on that small ship is neat. Maybe the RCN should try one out on their AOPS. so it can get a little respect.
The Patria NEMO system is high end and unique but really not very useful tactically except in specific littoral or riverine applications. Countries like Finland, Sweden and Singapore have navies that are designed to fight in the littorals by geographical necessity (that includes coastal forces and coastal artillery) — unlike Canada, as a centric frigate navy designed to operate in coalition with other NATO members.
South Korea’s PKX-B are fitted with the LIG Nex1/Hanwha 130mm guided rocket launcher at the stern (suited for their unique requirements at the Northern Limit Line) — these are more slightly more suited for future Canadian frigates. IMHO, the Canadian Navy, whose naval patrols more conventional in nature, does not need the LIG Nex1/Hanwha 130mm guided rocket launcher.
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Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
I hope they have to stay for many years in prison, after all they are also responsable for the death op TNI- and POLRI-personnel and civillians.
Ammunition supplies by domestic or foreign weaponmanufacturers to criminal gangs and terrorists is already totally wrong, but what these 3 soldiers did is even wronger, it betraying your own country. In Dutch we call it hoogverraad.
Edit: in English its high treason.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
The way I see the design and some talk that I got during last Indodefence, this design aim for:
1. Special Ops infiltration,
2. Riverine and Coastal interdiction,
Perhaps the design can still be loaded by two into Makasar class LHD and send from 10-15 km off shore for infiltration operation before amphibious landing. It can be loaded for a squad of 12-18 person team, thus on Riverine and Coastal interdiction against smuggling or terrorist possition on remote islands, river banks etc.
This is small craft, can not have large radius of operations. Also it's clearly design only on coastal capabilities. Thus some talk in local forum and media on using this for Fishery Protection clearly doesn't make any sense.
Still there are other vessels that can be used for the two operation mention above.
The product of this local shipyard for example can also being used for those two operation for example. Thus this Tank Boat design in my opinion simply too much for coastal operation but not enough for medium and long range naval operation.
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