T-90 in Comparison to Western Armour

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eckherl

The Bunker Group
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Of course the sabot muzzle velocity must have relation with wear-and -tear. For M829A3 I remember, it's slightely below, may be to prevent excessive wear. It is like 1665-1670 m/s, but I have'nt got now exact number.

About future caliber for T's, many think over here that the full capability of 125mm is far from to be completely utilized. Its accuratness was rised significantly from 2A46M-1 to 2A46M-4. The known problem of 125mm always was its autoloader limitations , the T-72/T-90 type autoloader is limiting the APFSDS projectile lenght by 740 mm. Hovewer such limitation gives the option for some improvement/ Now with the last upgrading program for T-72BM ('Rogatka') they're starting to put there a modernized autoloader with oblique position of rounds. It gives the possibility of using more potent projectiles. The serial T-90S still comes with regular autoloader apropos, but I hope it will be rectified in near future. Thus the rumors about 135mm or even 152mm MG on T-80UM-2 (Black Eagleo and T-95 were remained rumors...

More important thing for T's is 30mm autumatic gun adoption IMHO:
What in the world would you need a contraption like that for, don`t you guy`s have enough defensive counter measures on your tanks. Couldn`t you design a heat round to take out helicopters, we did. I will get one of my Master Gunner associates at the Armor branch at Fort Knox to get me the numbers for the 829A3, my FT 120 - D - 1 Firing Tables data book only goes up to 829A2. I will also confirm the barrel replacement for firing KE rounds, for some reason the number 450 keeps coming up, I could be wrong. Is the Russian primary KE round still made out of DU, and if they go to a bigger gun will they downgrade to Tungsten.:)
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
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i believe that the 30mm guns are getting outdated ,it is the age of 40mm cannons,they have superior armour penetration,a decent fire rate and for anti helicopter roles a longer range.
It all depends on the ammunition that is used, we use the 25mm bushmaster with du shells and it works just fine in taking out IFV`s and the rear ends and flanks of tanks.
 

aaaditya

New Member
It all depends on the ammunition that is used, we use the 25mm bushmaster with du shells and it works just fine in taking out IFV`s and the rear ends and flanks of tanks.
i believe that the depleted uranium shells cause sickness ,i wonder if it is realy worth using these shells which have the potential for harming one's own troops as much as the enemy,i believe it would be better to use a heavier caliber shell having a tungsten carbide penetrator.
 

extern

New Member
What in the world would you need a contraption like that for, don`t you guy`s have enough defensive counter measures on your tanks. Couldn`t you design a heat round to take out helicopters, we did. //... Is the Russian primary KE round still made out of DU, and if they go to a bigger gun will they downgrade to Tungsten.:)
- Option for 30mm on T's is also about the situation when a tank meets with multiple threats from the ground and air. Yeah, the contemporal MG munition (125mm as well as 120) can give the answer to both armored, infantry and helo threat, but it 's only one channel of fire. In such situation the 'hunter-killer' mode of work may be too late. 30mm gives a shining opportunity for gunner to be concentrated on ground treatment (of armored&infantry threats with MG and the coaxial machine-gun), while the commander takes the helos out. Of course, the 30mm must be independent from MG for such capability.

As a rule, there is no DU munition in the Russian units. It is keep in special storage for war-time only. Hovewer, when/if the Russian forces will conduct oversea ops so many as US, it may be changed for convenience purpose.
 

Waylander

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Concentration on the ground engagement is another aspect.
No way a tank crew even notices an attacking plane before it fires while being stucked up in ground combat.
It is a full time job to communicate, fire and find your way and maybe command your platoon/company.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
- Option for 30mm on T's is also about the situation when a tank meets with multiple threats from the ground and air. Yeah, the contemporal MG munition (125mm as well as 120) can give the answer to both armored, infantry and helo threat, but it 's only one channel of fire. In such situation the 'hunter-killer' mode of work may be too late. 30mm gives a shining opportunity for gunner to be concentrated on ground treatment (of armored&infantry threats with MG and the coaxial machine-gun), while the commander takes the helos out. Of course, the 30mm must be independent from MG for such capability.

As a rule, there is no DU munition in the Russian units. It is keep in special storage for war-time only. Hovewer, when/if the Russian forces will conduct oversea ops so many as US, it may be changed for convenience purpose.
Hiow many generations are the Russians at with their DU 125mm rounds.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
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SOme news: I see he Americans try to outrun Russians in tank guided munition.

Quote: 'TUCSON, Ariz., Sept. 25, 2006 /PRNewswire/ -- Raytheon Company
successfully conducted the first beyond line of sight mission with a test
firing of its Mid Range Munition Chemical Energy (MRM-CE) guided projectile' http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/m...tory/09-25-2006/0004439021&EDATE=Sep+25,+2006
We have been working on this for a while now, it`s primary purpose will be for helicopter threats and secondary purpose will be for armor.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
i believe that the depleted uranium shells cause sickness ,i wonder if it is realy worth using these shells which have the potential for harming one's own troops as much as the enemy,i believe it would be better to use a heavier caliber shell having a tungsten carbide penetrator.
They only become a issue after they hit a target, there is no exposer to the tank crews while they are handling them.
 

LancerMc

New Member
There is no danger for the crew of the tank firing the DU round. The damage comes for the KE round producing very fine DU particles after striking the target. The particles go everywhere inside the damaged or destroyed vehicle. The biggest problem for American forces in its use was the unfortunate cases of friendly fire. In these instance soldiers coming to assistance of injured crew, or mechanics recovering vehicles were exposed to DU. The DU is inhaled and lodged in lung tissue forever. Many soldiers recovering friendly MBT's and APC's in the Gulf War were exposed to DU because they were apparently not told they needed to wear respirators during the recovery operations. It takes a full year to decontaminate a MBT or APC from DU.

Russia has had several generation of DU rounds, but their versions are not prolific in their military from my understanding.

The US has DU rounds in 7.62, .50 cal, 20mm, 25mm, 30mm, 40mm, 105mm, and 120mm.
 

LancerMc

New Member
That's what I thought, but the U.S. Army has the rounds to attack light armored vehicles. Thats the idea they state anyways.

The even make SABOT rounds for .50 cal, 20 and 30mm weapons.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
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APFSDS for 20-40mm are ok. You need something to attack enemy IFVs/APCs.
I also know that AP rounds for smaller calibres are needed to attack light armored vehicles.
But using DU in a round which is normally used against infantry seems a bit too much for me.
It is for sure not good for you to have a deformed DU round in your body.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There is no danger for the crew of the tank firing the DU round. The damage comes for the KE round producing very fine DU particles after striking the target. The particles go everywhere inside the damaged or destroyed vehicle. The biggest problem for American forces in its use was the unfortunate cases of friendly fire. In these instance soldiers coming to assistance of injured crew, or mechanics recovering vehicles were exposed to DU. The DU is inhaled and lodged in lung tissue forever. Many soldiers recovering friendly MBT's and APC's in the Gulf War were exposed to DU because they were apparently not told they needed to wear respirators during the recovery operations. It takes a full year to decontaminate a MBT or APC from DU.

Russia has had several generation of DU rounds, but their versions are not prolific in their military from my understanding.

The US has DU rounds in 7.62, .50 cal, 20mm, 25mm, 30mm, 40mm, 105mm, and 120mm.
I agree with your statment but would also like to add that during the first Persian Gulf war we had alot of soldiers posing next to knocked out enemy vehicles thus receiving contamination. The so called safety distance that you need to stay away from knocked out vehicles penetrated with DU ammo is 300 meters. Yes we have tested with 7.62 and 50 cal Du rounds but we do not use them, two reasons 1 - Accountibility issues 2. what is a machine guns purpose on the battlefield, (area suppression).
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
You can decide from the chart. As a rule, each Tungsten alloy variant has its DU confrere with some 10% additionally penetration:
Thank you for the info, do you have the armor thickness levels for the T-90 and T-80UM, sixty degree frontal. Also with Russia going to a bigger gun
(If they decide to) haven`t they reached the crossroads to where they really do not have a choice but to go with a bustle type auto loader, increasing the size of the turret, both in heighth and length.
 

extern

New Member
Thank you for the info, do you have the armor thickness levels for the T-90 and T-80UM, sixty degree frontal. Also with Russia going to a bigger gun
(If they decide to) haven`t they reached the crossroads to where they really do not have a choice but to go with a bustle type auto loader, increasing the size of the turret, both in heighth and length.
Bcz exessive vulnarability of an external bustle type structure, the russian choose another way: on T-95 the autoloader is remain internal, but completely isolated with crew comparement. It's certanly not Leclerc-BlackEagle-like. Howevere, I donno much about its carachteristics.

About the armor you can read on the charts. An expected conclusion: the last APFSDS (both russkiy and western) can penetrate the last modification of contemporal tanks only in weak zone of projection.
 

aaaditya

New Member
well despite its problems the indian army seems to be keen on acquiring more t-90's .they have recently placed an order for 330 additional t-90's.
i believe the indian army force structure will comprise the t-90's as a replacement for the t-72's ,the tank-x as a replacement for the t-55 nad the arjun as a replacement for the vaijayanta's .

here check out this link:

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/india-to-buy-330-tanks-from-russia/24747-3-1.html

Delivery of T-90S kits from Russia, Jane's adds, would "speed up" the fielding of new MBTs as assembly using Indian-made components is more time consuming.

But army officers complained that the existing T-90S tanks faced "recurring" technical problems which were adversely impinging on the force's operational preparedness.

Senior armoured corps officers said the Catherine thermal imaging (TI) camera supplied by Thales of France that is the "heart" of the T-90S' fire control system (FCS) had "repeatedly malfunctioned" in the excessive summer heat of the western Rajasthan desert where the MBTs frequently exercise and will eventually be deployed.

Officers operating the tanks said temperatures in excess of 60 degrees Celsius inside the tank had rendered between 80-90 FCS "unserviceable" over the past four years. Attempts to rectify them had so far largely proven unsuccessful.

In one armoured regiment in Punjab, an alarming 30 of 40 tanks were "off-road", lamented an officer, declining to be named.

In keeping with the army's qualitative staff requirement for the T-90S MBT that stipulated a "longer range, shimmerless" sight, Peling of Belarus with its IG 46 sight entered into partnership with Thales to integrate its Catherine TI camera thereby giving the FCS a range of around three kilometres. The FCS components were "mated" by the manufacturers at the T-90S Nizhny Tagil factory in the Urals in Russia.

When problems first began to emerge in 2003 with the TI camera - priced at around Rs.20 million ($444,444) per unit, a fifth of each tanks cost of Rs.117.5 million - they were replaced as the T-90S were under warranty till March 2004.

Thereafter, with the warranty having ended, the army has grudgingly conceded that it is looking to "rectify" the FCS problem, but has not yet come up with a viable solution.

Army chief Gen J.J. Singh recently declared that the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) was considering proposals to "partially" air-condition the T-90S to overcome the overheating problem. But he did not elaborate as to how a cooling plant could be successfully engineered into the tank without undertaking major structural changes.

The T-90S licensed production that was to commence at HVF in 2006 has also been "considerably" deferred, armament industry officials said.

This was due partly to engineering problems encountered in locally assembling the MBTs, but principally because of integrating the Catherine TI camera with the 1G 46 sight.

The first locally assembled T-90S tanks began rolling out of the HVF in January 2004, but within a short period they too faced FCS problems in hot temperatures.

Ammunition for the T-90S is also posing a major problem.

Initially, the T-90S fired Russian-made AMK-338 and AMK-339 rounds, but these were soon exhausted in training and presently the tanks are without any ammunition as their 125 mm smoothbore guns have not yet been configured to fire the locally manufactured AMK-340 rounds.

Production of the MBT's 9M119 Refleks (NATO designation AT-11 Sniper) missiles by the state-owned Bharat Dynamics at Hyderabad in southern India that was scheduled to begin earlier this year is also behind schedule as several test firings have been unsuccessful. Russian technicians have been called in to assist.

Alongside, armoured corps officers said the T-90S had been "overexposed" in exercises "to suit the individual whims of senior commanders" anxious to show off the new tank and were already in need of major overhauls.

Each tank has a maximum life of 650 cycles on the onboard rev-counter with static running equalling one rev per hour while travelling 17.5 km equalled one rev. But, in less than four years, most of the T-90S tanks had completed 600 revs.

Army officers also bemoaned the shortage of T 90 simulators of which there were only five at present, in order to extend the MBT's operational longevity.

"Given the army's over emphasis on low intensity conflict the long term armour induction policy and related modernisation programmes have slipped badly," said Brig Arun Sahgal, a former armoured corps officer now with the United Services Institute. This bodes ill for its overall fighting capability, he added.

The army aims on eventually equipping its 58 armoured regiments with T-90S tanks and upgraded Ajeya T 72Mis fitted with full and partial solution FCS, explosive reactive armour, land navigation systems, frequency hopping radio sets and advanced nuclear, biological and chemical equipment to keep them in service till 2015 -20.
 
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