T-90 in Comparison to Western Armour

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TacticalSniper

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Hey, all.

On russian website I've seen too many sayings like "Abrams' piece of crap - T-90 the best". So I was just wondering, is T-90 that great? Because I have a hard time believing it. I'm not saying it's not a good tank - it is. But is it, like the russkies say, best of all?

TIA.
 

Fireglow

New Member
Of course any country would say same about their tanks.
Please no more this kind of topics like east vs. west, USA best? or something like that...No political discussion.

I think that T-90 IS one of the best.
And it is true that abrams is a little "crap" but there is coming lot's of upragades* that make it better.

(*=bad english :D )
 

fylr71

New Member
One major issue with the T-90 is that it has not been upgraded and has not seen combat whereas the M1 has been upgraded to M1A1, then to M1A2, the TUSK enhancement, and the SEP upgrade. Also, the M1 has seen combat and has performed brilliantly.:)
 

contedicavour

New Member
fylr71 said:
One major issue with the T-90 is that it has not been upgraded and has not seen combat whereas the M1 has been upgraded to M1A1, then to M1A2, the TUSK enhancement, and the SEP upgrade. Also, the M1 has seen combat and has performed brilliantly.:)
Agree that a MBT needs to see some serious service before one can judge it. The most recent Russian-built MBTs used in conflicts were T-72s... and we all remember the colulmns of burnt out T-72s of the Iraqi elite Republican Guard after fights with M1A2s (though USAF and Apaches helped a lot).
You'll tell me : the T-90 is generations ahead of T-72s... well yes, but at least the main gun is still the same ;)

cheers
 

TacticalSniper

New Member
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Well, don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to start any political discussion. I am actually trying to understand if the T-90 is AS good as they say it is. I know it's a good tank, but I hardly believe it doesn't have any cons. And being an Israeli, I'm especially interested to know if T-90 is better than the Merkava Mark 4 (at least on the datasheet, as we can make only assumptions about T-90 in an actual war), as IMO there's a good chance the IDF might meet the T-90 one day on the ground.
 

Pursuit Curve

New Member
The only test of a weapon systems effectiveness is combat. I am sure that everyonw here is aware of all the positive press the T72 got when it first appeared, in fact that tank caused a lot of worry in NATO until..you guessed it, The Bekaa Valley in 1982, and the Gulf War part I. So, lets keep this all in perspective shall we, every Russian MBT that has made an appearance on the battlefield has been defeated by western MBT's for the last 50 plus years.

Where is the Battlefield evidence? Where are the facts, not Hyperbole?
 

brian00

New Member
My opinion is that T-90 is a product of soviet tank docterine, which differs from that of the west,

The difference is somewhat similiar to that of the german and russian tanks of ww2

challenger2 and upgraded abrams are expensive, heavily armoured (weighs almost 70 tons) and have advanced systems

Russian tanks like the t-90 are cheaper and more of a medium tank (50 tons) so not so much armour, but designed to be easily built in large numbers

On a one to one basis the western tanks seem to have a better chance of surviving a hit, but who gets more for their money I can only guess...
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
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T-72 caused much trouble because during this time M60s, Leopard 1s, Centurions and even M-48s were the backbone of the NATO-forces in Europe. And for them a T-72 (Especially when it is not an Export T-72M) would have been something to really worry about.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Waylander said:
T-72 caused much trouble because during this time M60s, Leopard 1s, Centurions and even M-48s were the backbone of the NATO-forces in Europe. And for them a T-72 (Especially when it is not an Export T-72M) would have been something to really worry about.
You bet, in the '70s and early '80s the T72's 125mm main gun would have wrecked our Leo1 and M60 MBTs ! The Russians have lost the advantage on this escalation of firepower :D

cheers
 

powerslavenegi

New Member
While people have been talking of this v/s that for a long time let me ask you if a Round from 125mm gun from T-72 or T-90 hits M1A2 from a distance of say 2-3Km wont the Target be damaged ?(If NO then I rest my argument else all this talk is useless) same holds true if an Abrams or Leo fires on to a T-90.Only and the most decisive factor that favours the latest Leo's is the L55 main gun for it outranges the other tanks by a margin.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
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How should we know? There have been not many occassions were Abrams, Leos, Challis, etc. have been fired upon by the latest russian gun/ammo combination.

There is always the possibility of partial failures or a mobility kill but if the armor is not penetrated you have a good chance of getting away unharmed because of the shock hardened electronic in modern tanks and the spall liners.

BTW, while increasing the effective range the L/55 also increase the penetration capability in general. Round about 30% more than a british L30 with DU ammo.
 

.pt

New Member
Do you think there will be more increases in caliber of main gun?or will they upgrade to other types of weapon, such as EM, etc? that would save some $$$$ in ammo. and it won´t get outdated.
.pt
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Why would it not get outdatet? Everything gets outdatet sometime.

Germany and Switzerland both had test runs with 140mm main guns for the Leo II during the early '90s. The result in both countrys was that the benefits a higher calibre gives to you were not worth the problems it makes. More time needed for loading, less ammo in the tank, higher weight.
So they decided to gor for a longer barrel.
But sometime in the future a bigger calibre might be needed if there is no new invention like a usefull railgun.
For now the L/55 is the most powerfull gun in the world with the L/44 rated second place.
So there is no need for a new gun now.
But you never know what the future is going to bring to you.
 

Viktor

New Member
contedicavour said:
Agree that a MBT needs to see some serious service before one can judge it. The most recent Russian-built MBTs used in conflicts were T-72s... and we all remember the colulmns of burnt out T-72s of the Iraqi elite Republican Guard after fights with M1A2s (though USAF and Apaches helped a lot).
You'll tell me : the T-90 is generations ahead of T-72s... well yes, but at least the main gun is still the same ;)

cheers
I wouldn use that as an argument because during clashes with US army Iraq T-72 where downgraded version of T-72 (soviets sold only downgraded versions of weapons to arab nations) with less and downgraded armor, besides Iraq army had a pour training and often used steel penetrators with often half charge and without night vision, digital computer etc whitch combined with full air supremacy and one generation ahead of tanks M1A1 can not represent its true capabilities.
 

eckherl

Defense Professional
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T - 90 vs Western Tanks

There is no way that a Russian T - 90 or a T - 80 can compare to a MIA1 or a M1A2, export or not. The only thing out there that can compare would be a German Leopard 2 A 5 or A 6. This is coming from someone who has alot of experience in this field. What happened to all those wonderful T - 80`s when the Russians decided to go in to their own backyard. (Chechney). I keep bringing up the T - 80 because it has alway`s been a far more advanced tank. All the Russians are trying to do is perform a T - 72 upgrade so that their Middle Eastern friends will buy them.
 

nz enthusiast

New Member
I always seen the T-90 as more of a replacement for the PT-76 then the T-64s and T-72s. The thing is its better than the T-72 by that much that it has become their MBT until the black widow or T-95 programs get going again.
 

Viktor

New Member
eckherl said:
There is no way that a Russian T - 90 or a T - 80 can compare to a MIA1 or a M1A2, export or not. The only thing out there that can compare would be a German Leopard 2 A 5 or A 6. This is coming from someone who has alot of experience in this field. What happened to all those wonderful T - 80`s when the Russians decided to go in to their own backyard. (Chechney). I keep bringing up the T - 80 because it has alway`s been a far more advanced tank. All the Russians are trying to do is perform a T - 72 upgrade so that their Middle Eastern friends will buy them.
During Checheny times T-80 where used incorectly - even the best tank in the world could not perform batter when send in the city in whitch tanks where shoot at with RPGs, ATGM and antitank guns from often three different sides and from above - do you consider M1A2 strong enough to survive such enviroment??
I dont think so.
During first Russian-Chechen war constripct with only 1 year of military training where sent in the combat - total inexpirience unlike Chechen fighters who where led by former Soviet general whitch had expirienced and motivated fighters.
I would not say Merkava 4 or 3 is a bad tank just because some of them where eliminated by Hez fighters. Hez intercepted comunications, tanks moved in small pairs, did not have any APS protection itd.
Each tank performs well in a role for whitch is constructed for - any other limits its efficiency.
 

eckherl

Defense Professional
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T-90 vs. Western tanks

Point well taken, you are right in the fact that tanks do not do fairly well in a urbanized war setting, I should also added that some of the Russian armored units did not have the explosive inserts for their reactive armor and this could of contributed to some of the losses. I would like to ask you this, which tank does the Russian army prefer, the T-90 or the T-80. This is a little off track but does the Russian army plan on adding more BMP 3`s to their inventory, The South Korean amry has a sizable batch of them and are quite satisfied with it`s performance.
 

extern

New Member
eckherl said:
I would like to ask you this, which tank does the Russian army prefer, the T-90 or the T-80. This is a little off track but does the Russian army plan on adding more BMP 3`s to their inventory, The South Korean amry has a sizable batch of them and are quite satisfied with it`s performance.
- The BMP-3 program is going further as well, each year some tens of this vehicles are entering service.

T-90 - is a single model of tank, that is in production untill T-95 will come. So no new T-80 will be built, but an active modernisation of the big storage (~4000) of T-80 models with the new secret FCS and ERA Relikt is under way in Omsk (Sibiria). This is a pic of a modernised T-80B:
 
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eckherl

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
T-90 vs. Western tanks

Great picture, it looks like that it has the same type of reactive armor package that is on the T-90.
 
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