S.Korea, Indonesia to develop 4.5 gen fighter aircraft KFX

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
i can understand that PT DI and other supporting BUMN can't achieve it right away, they will need more time and more research to reach that level.

But is it worthed to make those learning process faster by asking more ToT or more right of this KFX by contribute more??
previously it's 20%, then went down to 18% for the same mount of ToT...
let's just say 22-25% for more ToT n right....

even though i believe the next question would be, do we have that much money..??
or how much difference that 5% would make..??
During SBY-period, the agreement was that Indonesia would pay 20% of the budget for participation in the design and a certain amount of ToT. In the last years the IPTN-engineers do not participate anymore because of the unwillingness of the Jokowi-administration to pay. With other words, Indonesia missed many chances to gather enough expertise, knowledge and experience in developing (stealth) jetfighters. And even if the whole 20% was paid, i can't believe that Indonesia will be ready to develop an own stealthfighter, even an aircraft in the class of Hawk Mk.200 or TA-50 will be a miracle. I mean do we have companies in the same calibre as Hanwha Systems, LG and Samsung?

Besides that, do you think that the Indonesian government, and specially the Jokowi-administration is willing to spend billions of $ in developing an own variant of the KF-X or a new fighter?
I believe that the whole negotiating process by the Jokowi-administration is a theatrical act to let the Indonesian participation stuck and to force an Indonesian withdrawal. And it is up to them who to blame, the SBY-administration, the Koreans, Covid-19.....

So, answering on your question
"do we have that much money?"...
Yes, undoubtly.

But it is all about the political willingness on how much there will be spend on defence and the aerospace industry.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
As a Banker I have watch many Industries learning curve. Whatever your Industry is, the basic learning curve is more or less similar. It begin with you learning from other people design (as sub contractor or license holder), then you move toward collaboration with other parties to build and design together (as equal partnership, or you lead with other parties as consultant), later on you begin to move to work on your own design.

All of that depends on how much you are willing to invest on developing your own RnD. The more advanced your learning curve stages, the more Investment that you need to put.

Thus on this Fighters Jet program, DI basically still in first stage. Again as Junior Partner, DI basically only learning and follow the lead from KAI. DI engineer only work with KAI lead design project, no more no less. KAI before achieving this stage, already moving to second stage when they're developing T-50 with LM help.

do we have companies in the same calibre as Hanwha Systems, LG and Samsung?
Adding to what Sandhi comments, it doesn't matter whether Indonesia got 20%, 18%, or 23% or even 40%. Cause at this stage we do not have aerospace Industry and supporting industry that have enough Tech Know How to develop their own tech or even integrated necessary off the shelf tech to support Fighter program. It's simply because no Indonesian Industry already received opportunity to involved on Fighters program. So whatever the license program that will be decided, whether continue with KAI, Dasault or even LM, it's "still" part of early stage of learning curve.

The way I see it on many Industries, there's no 'jump' on learning curve. You have to follow each stage, cause that's how you build your know how. You can "speed it up" by Investing more, but you still need to follow stages of learning curve.
 

chiphocks

New Member
All of that depends on how much you are willing to invest on developing your own RnD. The more advanced your learning curve stages, the more Investment that you need to put.

Thus on this Fighters Jet program, DI basically still in first stage. Again as Junior Partner, DI basically only learning and follow the lead from KAI. DI engineer only work with KAI lead design project, no more no less. KAI before achieving this stage, already moving to second stage when they're developing T-50 with LM help.



Adding to what Sandhi comments, it doesn't matter whether Indonesia got 20%, 18%, or 23% or even 40%. Cause at this stage we do not have aerospace Industry and supporting industry that have enough Tech Know How to develop their own tech or even integrated necessary off the shelf tech to support Fighter program. It's simply because no Indonesian Industry already received opportunity to involved on Fighters program. So whatever the license program that will be decided, whether continue with KAI, Dasault or even LM, it's "still" part of early stage of learning curve.

The way I see it on many Industries, there's no 'jump' on learning curve. You have to follow each stage, cause that's how you build your know how. You can "speed it up" by Investing more, but you still need to follow stages of learning curve.
that's exactly why i think that this is a good opportunity to start those process.
we have a demand, partner, budget even though right now it's not that much.
at least this will increase the capability of our industries to a certain point.
and if they don't push it, those stages of learning curve will consume more time and more effort with no guarantee that this kind project will happen again.

maybe after this project end, we still won't able to make high tech stuff like the AESA radar, missiles, jet engine or simply a fighter plane in the same or less capability to KFX.
but at least we will make more progress to design and build a better, more complicated air plane than what we've build now.
either using that knowledge for a fighter plane, or others
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
that's exactly why i think that this is a good opportunity to start those process.
we have a demand, partner, budget even though right now it's not that much.
at least this will increase the capability of our industries to a certain point.
and if they don't push it, those stages of learning curve will consume more time and more effort with no guarantee that this kind project will happen again.

maybe after this project end, we still won't able to make high tech stuff like the AESA radar, missiles, jet engine or simply a fighter plane in the same or less capability to KFX.
but at least we will make more progress to design and build a better, more complicated air plane than what we've build now.
either using that knowledge for a fighter plane, or others
Sounds like a good plan, but sadly your government isn't agree with you.
We should actually thank God that the N219 and Elang Hitam UAV projects are not cancelled by this current administration.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Indonesia need to build it's own production line. That's mean put more money to build IFX assembly toolings and jigs, which's not cheap.
Below the article on how ROK/KAI going to Invest on state of the art production facilities for KF-21. Just as reminder, that asside has to begin paid up of its commitment arrears payment that dues. Indonesia if wants to recommitted to the project has to prepare Investment on IFX (or they can call it IF-21) production facilities that will not be cheap.


Perhaps the facilities will not be as sophisticated that KAI build. However will also be at least close to KAI facilities standard. If KAI already prepared the KF-21/KFX facilities on certain standard, then the IFX/IF-21 need to be close to it. It will create difficulty for standardize the work, if the facilities not close to par.

This will add the bills on top what Indonesia payment dues and commitment. Will they (current administration) willing to Invest additional costs ? As now they only build empty facilities building in DI (and call it IFX facilities).
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Bemil Chosun shown further ground test being done by KAI for KFX/KF-21. You can see the level of Investment that KAI prepared especially on supporting infrastructure.

Now there's still Indonesian enthusiasts even Politicians that very sure Indonesia will still continue on the IFX version. Again talk is cheap. Aside from unpaid development costs that still due, there's also no additional Investment that being poured to DI for supporting infrastructure to manufacture IFX prototype and test them.
 
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