Russian Army/Ground Forces Discussion and Updates

[Feanor]

There are some photos from demonstrative photos of the Ratnik gear in the 27th MRB.

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Some fun facts, the AK-103 turned out to be roughly twice as accurate as the AK-74. The flak jacket stopped an SVD round from fairly close range. According to a Russian Army colonel, the impact would not even break the wearers' ribs...

The AK-103 with it was tested using some sort of combat optic, and a reflex sight. If you look at the photos carefully you see both of them. Also demonstrated was the PKP Pecheneg, which isn't terribly new, and has been in service with front line units for a few years now.

There are some photos from demonstrative photos of the Ratnik gear in the 27th MRB.

-

Some fun facts, the AK-103 turned out to be roughly twice as accurate as the AK-74. The flak jacket stopped an SVD round from fairly close range. According to a Russian Army colonel, the impact would not even break the wearers' ribs...

The AK-103 with it was tested using some sort of combat optic, and a reflex sight. If you look at the photos carefully you see both of them. Also demonstrated was the PKP Pecheneg, which isn't terribly new, and has been in service with front line units for a few years now.

There is also a new UAV complex called Navodchik (Forward Observer) which uses a new Russian UAV called Granat-2. It has an operating radius of 15kms and is intended to replace (or rather augment given the situation) the more primitive Grusha UAVs.

http://www.redstar.ru/index.php/component/k2/item/1061-ot-grushi-k-granatu

They are currently being tested in a SpN Bde, and in the 106th VDV Div. with the Polyot-K automated C4I, and the Adromeda-D C4I.

http://ria.ru/interview/20111219/518516996.html

Some photos here: http://army-reporter.livejournal.com/71143.html?view=255719#t255719

The Granat-2 is the one with the much larger wingspan. 2nd and 3rd photos.

As it stands the 7th VDV, 106th VDV, and 76th VDV have all been equipped with the Polyot-K system, and some of them have taken delivery of the Andromeda-D.

EDIT: Shoyga gave Shamanov the go ahead for the procurement of 10 BMD-4M and 10 BTR-MD Rakushka in the first half of 2013.

There are also plans for turning recon companies in VDV Divisions into btlns. And to include 60 helos organically in the 31st VDV Bde (40 Mi-8s and 20 Mi-24s).

http://twower.livejournal.com/942320.html

UVZ Press Service also gave a report on deliveries for this year. They delivered a number of TZM-T loaders for the TOS-1A, a number of BREM-1M ARVs for the upgraded T-72Bs. They also delivered a small number of T-72B3 early, out of those planned for next year.

They also produced (apparently from scratch not upgrades) 2S19M2 Msta-S arty units. Finally a number of T-80BV tanks were overhauled.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/409739.html

EDIT: The EW unit on the Tigr chassis that was demonstrated last year, has been approved for serial production, after passing experimental exploitation in the VDV, on the Tigr-M chassis. In other words the Tigr-M will continue to be the sole carrier for a number of current and future support systems. 10 of them were delivered this year as part of experimental exploitation, and 10 more are planned next year.

http://www.arms-expo.ru/049057054048124051048048048053.html
http://www.lenta.ru/news/2012/12/25/leer/

 

[alexkvaskov]

The MoD has announced plans to procure 16 Armata MBTs in 2014 for trials (with serial production to begin in 2015).

Regarding the Armata, there's been a lot of talk that it would have an unmanned turret - is this true?

Lenta.ru:

 

[Feanor]

The MoD has announced plans to procure 16 Armata MBTs in 2014 for trials (with serial production to begin in 2015).

Regarding the Armata, there's been a lot of talk that it would have an unmanned turret - is this true?

Lenta.ru:

Theoretically yes. The Armata is a reworked Object 195. Though we can probably expect to see a smaller 125mm gun (Object 195 supposedly has a 152mm gun).

EDIT: Apparently this year (2013) the MoD will scrap the last 900 T-62s still left in service. There is no more ammo left for any of them, and they're not in active use. According to the MoD the storage space they take up is needed for other tanks.

This is interesting news. The ammo probably was utilized as part of the recent arsenal reductions, so it's not a matter of not having any ammo to begin with but rather part of the overall size reductions. Still I should think it would be possible to sell those tanks on the third world market, given that they're in working condition, and many other tanks of this type are in service elsewhere. And certainly selling them should be more profitable then scrapping (which actually costs money to do).

http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/

It also can't be that hard to restart ammo production, especially given the numbers in service across the third world.

 

[Feanor]

Testing of the Italian Centaur and Freccia vehicles in winter conditions (-10 C) ended in complete disaster. The vehicles couldn't start without being preheated in garages, after firing the 120mm main gun the snow dust quickly plugged up the optics, and the windshield wipers couldn't clean it off. The cleaning liquid turned into sludge. Even the heater couldn't keep the insides of the vehicles warm enough for the vehicle operators.

Gur Khan attacks!:

This comes on top of earlier mobility problems of the Iveco Lynx when driving cross country in the winter. Comparative mobility trials between the Tiger, Humvee, and Iveco, showed that the Tiger had excellent mobility, the Iveco couldn't barely move through the snow (falling far behind the Tiger) and the Humvee couldn't move at all.

We can also expect experimental exploitation of the Armata, Kurganets, and Bumerang, to begin this year.

 

[Waylander]

Well, it's not as if the Italians design their design with very harsh winter conditions in mind apart from the occassional trip to the alps.

Maybe Finnish Patrias and Swiss Eagles would have been a better choice for the trials. At least these companies have extensive experience with designing vehicles for very cold and snowy environments.

 

[Feanor]

Well, it's not as if the Italians design their design with very harsh winter conditions in mind apart from the occassional trip to the alps.

Maybe Finnish Patrias and Swiss Eagles would have been a better choice for the trials. At least these companies have extensive experience with designing vehicles for very cold and snowy environments.

Heh. Well the Boxer had a lot less problems. There was a photo on CAST's blog of a Boxer moving briskly through snow.

They tried to get some Patria's for trials, but Finland essentially refused to sell only a couple of vehicles, and instead implied that there needs to be a substantial contract involved.

What they're doing is buying examples of Western light armored vehicles to test, play around with, and compare to domestic alternatives. For example, in the case of the 120mm Centauro variant, they were very impressed with how little the recoil affected the vehicle, and how accurate the gun was. They were not impressed with Italian claims that the Centauro is essentially a wheeled tank, and instead considered it to be more similar to a self-propelled AT gun (not unlike the Sprut-SD).

So far they've gotten the Centauro and Freccia, and the Boxer. When they tried to get the Patria they were shot down. My guess is that Iveco was a lot more willing to provide these vehicles, given the gigantic contract for Lynx MRAPs. Truth is, I don't think they intend to buy any of them unless they can get 100% ToT with integration of Russian subsystems (weapons, comms, possibly engine) and that would amount to joint development of a whole new vehicle variant, if not a whole new vehicle. And given Russian positions in weapon export markets (and the noteworthy sales of BTR-80 derivatives over the last few years) I doubt they would want to undermine their position by choosing a foreign vehicle.

The images and models of the Bumerang they published lately actually looked very similar to the V-hull Stryker, as well as to a MOWAG Piranha variant.

 

[Waylander]

I understand that selling such small numbers is always a risk for the companies involved as they may be providing a future competitor with additional ideas and technological solutions.

The idea of the Centauro being a wheeled tank is marketing talk at it's best. Tank hunter and direct fire support are it's usefull usages.

I also expect a vehicle like the Boxer as being too expensive for Russia even if full ToT is granted (which I doubt). Russia needs to equip lots of units and doing it with the Boxer would be expensive like hell.

 

[Feanor]

I understand that selling such small numbers is always a risk for the companies involved as they may be providing a future competitor with additional ideas and technological solutions.

Which seems to be their primary goal when purchasing these vehicles.

The idea of the Centauro being a wheeled tank is marketing talk at it's best. Tank hunter and direct fire support are it's usefull usages.

The question is what would they replace in current Russian motor-rifle brigade orbats. The AT batallions use ATGM carrier vehicles, or in some instances towed AT guns, which are to be replaced with ATGM carriers in the future. The main direct fire support role is handled by MBTs, there's a btln of them in each MRBde. They could potentially be replaced by wheeled and tracked medium vehicles with 125mm guns. Models of a tracked vehicle with what appears to be a 125mm gun were shown, presumably on the Kurganets platform.

So if they're considering what to use in those roles (and it's possible given that next-gen MBTs will be very very expensive) then considering them as medium/light tanks is not entirely out of place.

I also expect a vehicle like the Boxer as being too expensive for Russia even if full ToT is granted (which I doubt). Russia needs to equip lots of units and doing it with the Boxer would be expensive like hell.

I seriously doubt there is any real intent to procure these vehicles. These buys seem primarily oriented at comparing leading western tech to what Russia currently has, drawing conclusions, and setting appropriate standards for domestic industry variants.

 

[Waylander]

I expect a Centauro like platform being used in exactly the roles I mentioned, being direct fire support and tank hunter.

The Russian army may very well play with the idea of forming medium infantry units similar to the Stryker Brigades where the same role is filled by the Stryker MGS.

Deployability on the vast borders of mother Russia with shrinking numbers of units calls for new solutions and creating medium infantry units to complement the heavy army MRBs/TBs and light VDV units may be part of the answer.

 

[Feanor]

The Russian army may very well play with the idea of forming medium infantry units similar to the Stryker Brigades where the same role is filled by the Stryker MGS.

Well yes, that's exactly what's happening. They have never used wheeled fire support vehicles of this type before, and that role is currently filled by MBTs.

Deployability on the vast borders of mother Russia with shrinking numbers of units calls for new solutions and creating medium infantry units to complement the heavy army MRBs/TBs and light VDV units may be part of the answer.

Well currently the number of units is actually increasing. The T.O. strength of the armed forces is supposed to be 1 mln men, but currently total numbers are ~700 000. They are actively recruiting contract soldiers to fill the gap. The problem is the costs of equipping this very very large force with new vehicles, and practically the entire force needs them.

 

[alexkvaskov]

Well currently the number of units is actually increasing. The T.O. strength of the armed forces is supposed to be 1 mln men, but currently total numbers are ~700 000. They are actively recruiting contract soldiers to fill the gap. The problem is the costs of equipping this very very large force with new vehicles, and practically the entire force needs them.

There's been talk of recruiting more women into the military, potentially into front-line combat units, could this possibly help cover the manpower shortages?

 

[Feanor]

There's been talk of recruiting more women into the military, potentially into front-line combat units, could this possibly help cover the manpower shortages?

Given the recent salary hike, and major improvements in living conditions over the last 2-3 years, there is no shortage of people who want to serve as contract soldiers. The problem is 1) quality of applicants, and 2) funding. The current plans called for 50 000 new contract soldiers every year, but funding was only found for 30 000. Serdyukov was about to go to war with the finance ministry over the budget, when the corruption scandal with Oboronservis came up. Serdyukov had strong positions, and was likely to get his additional funding. Shoyga, I don't know.

Also, the manpower shortage doesn't seem to be having any effect on actual units, in as much as we can even call this a shortage (it really seems to be more of a planned reduction). In other words existing units are staffed to full strength. As new contract soldier become available, new units are formed to accommodate them. Officers are taken out of those that were not fired during the reforms, but also didn't have a billet under the new force orgs, and out of new graduates. Already this year several units were created from scratch, due to increasing numbers of enlisted personnel.

In other words, the plan to expand female service has more to do with the lack of quality personnel, then lack of personnel in general.

 

[alexkvaskov]

Given the recent salary hike, and major improvements in living conditions over the last 2-3 years, there is no shortage of people who want to serve as contract soldiers. The problem is 1) quality of applicants, and 2) funding. The current plans called for 50 000 new contract soldiers every year, but funding was only found for 30 000. Serdyukov was about to go to war with the finance ministry over the budget, when the corruption scandal with Oboronservis came up. Serdyukov had strong positions, and was likely to get his additional funding. Shoyga, I don't know.

Also, the manpower shortage doesn't seem to be having any effect on actual units, in as much as we can even call this a shortage (it really seems to be more of a planned reduction). In other words existing units are staffed to full strength. As new contract soldier become available, new units are formed to accommodate them. Officers are taken out of those that were not fired during the reforms, but also didn't have a billet under the new force orgs, and out of new graduates. Already this year several units were created from scratch, due to increasing numbers of enlisted personnel.

In other words, the plan to expand female service has more to do with the lack of quality personnel, then lack of personnel in general.

So did they actually manage to recruit 30,000 new kontratniks last year?

 

[Feanor]

I have no idea how many they actually managed to get. They have started up pretty massive training programs for new contract soldiers, so I'd imagine that they got well over 10 000 new ones.

Meanwhile here's a photo of the Kurganets-25 medium tracked platform being assembled, the picture is from a MoD video conference (link #1). This is the first time we've seen a real photo, rather then a model, of the vehicle. It seems like the models and 3-D renderings that showed up earlier were pretty accurate (link #2).

bmpd -
bmpd -

EDIT: Apparently the MoD will be buying 10 BMD-4Ms, 10 BTR-MDM, and 30 Tayfun-U armored trucks. There will also be overhauls with modernization of 30 BMP-2s, 105 MT-LBs, 30 BREM-1s, 15 BMP-3s, 15 T-90s, 58 IMR-2s, and a number of other vehicles.

105 BMD-1s will be converted into BMD-2s. 101 T-72B1s will be upgraded with thermals, K-5 ERA, new FCS, new comms, and possibly new engines.

I really wonder if the T-90s in question are the baseline T-90s from the early 1990s, that are currently sitting at a storage base. Same for the BMP-3s.

http://twower.livejournal.com/960935.html

EDIT2: Update on the Iveco MRAPs, the MoD will honor the existing contract but not buy any additional ones. In other words they will still take delivery of 1775 vehicles, some of which have already been delivered. The reason seems to be mobility problems with the Lynx, as compared to the Tigr.

http://www.arms-expo.ru/049051124051048051053052.html

 

[Feanor]

Well AMZ failed their production plan for the BTR-82 for last year by 200 vehicles. The reason is that they got an export contract, and opportunistically tried to exceed their own max production capacity.

Also two different sources are claiming that there is a total of 1000-1500 BTR-82 vehicles in the MoD inventory. While this is in principle possible, I find it unlikely. AMZ BTR-82 output is 2/3rds reworked BTR-80 hulls, and ~1/3rd new vehicles. The first BTR-82s started arriving in 2011, which means a total of two years worth of production. AMZ does have capacity to put out 600-700 vehicles a year, but they have export contract obligations, and orders from other agencies. BTR-82s were delivered to the FSB, and the MVD regularly buys BTR-80s (not sure about 82s). Also Venezuela and Kazakhstan have bought BTR-82 in recent years.

Supposedly we can expect to see Marine units in the Caspian and Black Sea Fleets getting them soon.

Lenta.ru:
Gur Khan attacks!:

 

[alexkvaskov]

Is this ERA or applique armor down the side of this T-90MS?
http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/7330/img7178f.jpg

 

[Feanor]

Is this ERA or applique armor down the side of this T-90MS?
http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/7330/img7178f.jpg

Supposedly ERA. If you look at a T-90A you can see three K-5 tiles at the front part of the hull. This is the same sort of thing, but instead of awkwardly sticking them on the sides of a modified T-72 hull, they integrated it into the basic design.

 

[Feanor]

Here's some shots of OKR Arktika that's being put together right now. UVZ is in charge of the project, and they originally tried to sell the combat module from the BMPT as part of the program, but it looks like it didn't work (thank god).

Gur Khan attacks!: Faberlic "

 

[Feanor]

A few updates, it looks like Tayfun deliveries are about to start to the VDV. The 30 Tayfun-U vehicles due this year could be meant for them. If they end up in para-assault units, they'll be a big improvement over the UAZ Gusar they use now. Also Tigr-M deliveries are expected to begin to the VDV, to the SpetzNaz. They also want Kamaz to make changes to their Mustang family of trucks, to fit VDV requirements. The info comes from an interview with Shamanov.

Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - Ðовое от Шаманова

Also production of the BTR-80/82 is expected to increase by about 200 vehicles. 770 vehicles total, 290 for the MoD, 400 for Rosoboroneksport, and 80 are being overhauled and repaired. Also 146 Tigr armored cars, 65 for the internal market (MoD/MVD) 81 for export. These numbers, for the BTR-80, combine overhauls and modernizations with regular production (a large chunk of the MoD order is upgrading BTR-80 hulls into BTR-82s).

Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - ПроизводÑтво на ÐМЗ. Уточненный раÑклад

Also, a picture of the future Bumerang based APC leaked out during a presentation at AMZ. The combat module looks like something based on the Berezhok upgrade for the BMP-2. There will probably also be a heavier combat module for the wheeled BMP on the Bumerang chassis.

Gur Khan attacks!: "

 

[alexkvaskov]

Is it known what kind of IED protection the BTR-80/82 and BMP-3 provide? Judging by the fact that there are pictures of troops in the South MD riding around on top the BTR, it's no better than the much maligned BMP-2