Russia to get SU-35 by 2011

[Haavarla]

Sorry but things look otherwise. Alexander Zelin said Russia plans to form 2-3 regiments of Su-35's. I would imagine upgrading existing Flankers would be a more viable option, but it looks like they're getting the new ones after all.

http://arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=56924&cid=25

EDIT: Zelin is head of the VVS.

EDIT2: Apparently the 117C engines on the new Su-35 are capable of supercruise.

http://arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=56936&cid=25

What kind of configuration on the new Su-35BM are we talking about here..
Fully tanked with 8-12 missle/hardpoints innstalled?
It would generate a awfull lot of drag..

Maybe supercriuse in a clean or light configuration..

I know the new 117c engine has more power, but the Su-35BM is somewhat heavier due to more internal fuel and aviaonics..

 

[Feanor]

Dude, the Su-30 variants have been manufactured at the Irkut plant for years.. they are upgraded, but nothing compared to the new Su-35BM!

Do you know what's on the Su-35BM? Has any RCS reduction techniques been used? What's the radar in the final configuration? What will be the engine used for serial production? Because I don't. Until we do, we can't really judge. In any event your point was that the Su-27SK is the main export Flanker. It's not.

What is the designations of the export version of the KNAAPO?
And how many Sukhoi's have the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production actully exportet recent years?

KnAAPO? Su-27SK, Su-30MK, Su-27SKM, and Su-30MK2.

http://www.knaapo.com/eng/products/military/index.wbp

How much has it exported in recent years? The Venezuelan contract, plus Chinese deliveries(both aircraft and kits). I think Indonesia is also using MK2's as well as Su-27SK.

EDIT: Don't forget they're the ones with overhaul contracts from the VVS, which has seen 36 planes so far, with 24 more due this fall. And they're the production base for the Su-35BM. They're going to get lots of business the next little while.

 

[Chrom]

Chrom I don’t know the variations of the Russian Flankers well like the different radar’s and weapons system over the years and so forth. Would the non SM Flanker be like an F-15A and the Chinese MKK a early model F-15C? Would that be a good comparison?

Yes, relative something like it. Just keep in mind, non-SM Flanker is already more or less F-15C level.

 

[f-22fan12]

If I'm not mistaken, the Russians are already upgrading many standard Su-27s to SM standard.

 

[Haavarla]

Do you know what's on the Su-35BM? Has any RCS reduction techniques been used? What's the radar in the final configuration? What will be the engine used for serial production? Because I don't. Until we do, we can't really judge. In any event your point was that the Su-27SK is the main export Flanker. It's not.



KnAAPO? Su-27SK, Su-30MK, Su-27SKM, and Su-30MK2.

http://www.knaapo.com/eng/products/military/index.wbp

How much has it exported in recent years? The Venezuelan contract, plus Chinese deliveries(both aircraft and kits). I think Indonesia is also using MK2's as well as Su-27SK.

EDIT: Don't forget they're the ones with overhaul contracts from the VVS, which has seen 36 planes so far, with 24 more due this fall. And they're the production base for the Su-35BM. They're going to get lots of business the next little while.

The new Su-35BM has no carnards wing, airbrake on top removed, new cocpit glass and more carbon and titanium inside the cockpit aswell as on the airframe itself. RAM coating and smaller tailfins.
This is someting that will reduce the RCS of the plane.

Larger intakes for the Engines and larger nose for bigger radar. New engine, Reinforced landingear, due to more weight.

Better avionics, e.t.c. and many other stuff i can't remember..
Yes most of it still on the test program and they might change some stuff underways.

KNAAPO is busy with other program as you stated so,
by 2010 they MIGHT have 6-10 Su-35BM produced. They have not signed any contract for the new Su-35BM, no foreign contry or the Russian air force as we speak..

I can't wait to se what radar they will use in the final version, but nothing is decided yet.

 

[tphuang]

The new Su-35BM has no carnards wing, airbrake on top removed, new cocpit glass and more carbon and titanium inside the cockpit aswell as on the airframe itself. RAM coating and smaller tailfins.
This is someting that will reduce the RCS of the plane.

so basically, su-35 will still be a behemoth in terms of RCS. With the way flanker is designed, you can only reduce its signature by so much. To say anything else would be buying into Sukhoi's marketing ploy.

 

[Viktor]

so basically, su-35 will still be a behemoth in terms of RCS. With the way flanker is designed, you can only reduce its signature by so much. To say anything else would be buying into Sukhoi's marketing ploy.

No its not ....




---------------------------------
A problem of huge size" is how the researchers describe the Su-35 inlet, with a straight duct that provides direct visibility to the entire face of the engine compressor. The basic solution has been to apply ferro-magnetic radar absorbent material (RAM) to the compressor face and to the inlet duct walls, but this involves challenges. The researchers note: the material cannot be allowed to constrict airflow or impede the operation of anti-icing systems and must withstand high-speed airflows and temperatures up to 200ºC. The ITAE team has developed and tested coating materials that meet these standards. A layer of RAM between 0.7mm and 1.4mm thick is applied to the ducts and a 0.5mm coating is applied to the front stages of the low-pressure compressor, using a robotic spray system. The result is a 10-15dB reduction in the RCS contribution from the inlets.
---------------------------------




---------------------------------
The modified Su-35 also has a treated cockpit canopy which reflects radar waves, concealing the high RCS contribution from metal components in the cockpit. ITAE has developed a plasma-deposition process to deposit alternating layers of metallic and polymer materials, creating a coating that blocks radio-frequency waves, is resistant to cracking and crazing and does not trap solar heat in the cockpit. The plasma-coating process is then carried out robotically in a 22 m3 vacuum chamber.
----------------------------------


-----------------------------------
ITAE and its partners have also developed plasma-type technology for applying ceramic coatings to the exhaust and afterburner. The conference video also showed the use of hand-held sprays to apply RAM to R-27 air-to-air missiles.
------------------------------------


-------------------------------------
ITAE has studied at least three techniques for reducing the RCS contribution of the radar antenna, in addition to the simplest method of deflecting the antenna upwards and treating or shrouding other components. One of these is to design a radome that can be switched from RF-transparent to RF-reflective. The interior of the radome would be coated with a cadmium sulphide or cadmium selenide thin-film semiconductor material which changes conductivity when illuminated with visible or ultra-violet light.
----------------------------------------



------------------------------------
A second technique that is also described in Western literature is to place a frequency selective surface screen in front of the antenna. This is a foil-like metal screen etched with small apertures which allow RF energy to pass within a narrow waveband, corresponding to the radar's own operating frequency. This reduces RCS, according to ITAE, but at the expense of radar performance.
------------------------------------

 

[guppy]

I must say that Russian engineers are really good. I mean really, by sheer engineering ingenuity, they have managed to camouflage a whale as a little fish. I should send them my 10 year old Volkswagen and perhaps they could make everyone think that it is a Lamborghini. From what I know, they work at half the cost of western garages too! Doesn't get any better than that, does it?

cheers

guppy

 

[Feanor]

Yes, relative something like it. Just keep in mind, non-SM Flanker is already more or less F-15C level.

Are you sure? An Su-27SK is equivalent of an F-15C? iirc it's the F-15C's that recently got AESA radars.

If I'm not mistaken, the Russians are already upgrading many standard Su-27s to SM standard.

36 delivered, 24 more due this fall.

The new Su-35BM has no carnards wing, airbrake on top removed, new cocpit glass and more carbon and titanium inside the cockpit aswell as on the airframe itself. RAM coating and smaller tailfins.
This is someting that will reduce the RCS of the plane.

Larger intakes for the Engines and larger nose for bigger radar. New engine, Reinforced landingear, due to more weight.

Better avionics, e.t.c. and many other stuff i can't remember..
Yes most of it still on the test program and they might change some stuff underways.

Source please?

KNAAPO is busy with other program as you stated so,
by 2010 they MIGHT have 6-10 Su-35BM produced. They have not signed any contract for the new Su-35BM, no foreign contry or the Russian air force as we speak..

Rumors have it that it's on the Libyan contract.

@ guppy I fully share your skepticism. There is definetly some RCS reduction. How much remains to be seen.

 

[tphuang]

No its not ....




---------------------------------
A problem of huge size" is how the researchers describe the Su-35 inlet, with a straight duct that provides direct visibility to the entire face of the engine compressor. The basic solution has been to apply ferro-magnetic radar absorbent material (RAM) to the compressor face and to the inlet duct walls, but this involves challenges. The researchers note: the material cannot be allowed to constrict airflow or impede the operation of anti-icing systems and must withstand high-speed airflows and temperatures up to 200ºC. The ITAE team has developed and tested coating materials that meet these standards. A layer of RAM between 0.7mm and 1.4mm thick is applied to the ducts and a 0.5mm coating is applied to the front stages of the low-pressure compressor, using a robotic spray system. The result is a 10-15dB reduction in the RCS contribution from the inlets.
---------------------------------

you do know most modern fighters hide the blade completely right? And the intake isn't two big rectangles.

---------------------------------
The modified Su-35 also has a treated cockpit canopy which reflects radar waves, concealing the high RCS contribution from metal components in the cockpit. ITAE has developed a plasma-deposition process to deposit alternating layers of metallic and polymer materials, creating a coating that blocks radio-frequency waves, is resistant to cracking and crazing and does not trap solar heat in the cockpit. The plasma-coating process is then carried out robotically in a 22 m3 vacuum chamber.
----------------------------------

yes, most modern fighters have this too.

-----------------------------------
ITAE and its partners have also developed plasma-type technology for applying ceramic coatings to the exhaust and afterburner. The conference video also showed the use of hand-held sprays to apply RAM to R-27 air-to-air missiles.
------------------------------------

no evidence this is on su-35, this is aimed for PAK-FA

-------------------------------------
ITAE has studied at least three techniques for reducing the RCS contribution of the radar antenna, in addition to the simplest method of deflecting the antenna upwards and treating or shrouding other components. One of these is to design a radome that can be switched from RF-transparent to RF-reflective. The interior of the radome would be coated with a cadmium sulphide or cadmium selenide thin-film semiconductor material which changes conductivity when illuminated with visible or ultra-violet light.
----------------------------------------

same as above

------------------------------------
A second technique that is also described in Western literature is to place a frequency selective surface screen in front of the antenna. This is a foil-like metal screen etched with small apertures which allow RF energy to pass within a narrow waveband, corresponding to the radar's own operating frequency. This reduces RCS, according to ITAE, but at the expense of radar performance.
------------------------------------

the most important part to note is that flankers as it is has a very non-stealth shape. Unless they put dramatic changes which will affect aerodynamics of the plane, it's not going to help.

The best they can do is probably get it down to the realm of latest F-15s with all the RAM and canopy coating.

 

[Feanor]

Getting it down to an F-15 in terms of RCS would be very impressive. After all the F-15 is a late 4th gen. air superiority fighter (I'm assuming you mean the current ones). So is the Su-35BM. Also DID did an excellent article on it. On RCS they say:

The SU-30 family has never been an especially stealthy aircraft, and its overall airframe design limits what one can accomplish in this area. Nevertheless, Sukhoi cites an unspecified amount of “reduced reflectance” for the SU-35 in the X-band, which is a popular choice for modern radars, and in the angle range of plus or minus 60 degrees.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Russias-SU-35-Mystery-Fighter-No-More-04969/

Also Sukhoi in an official release mentions deliveries of the Su-35 around the 2011 timeframe, so there must be buyers or at least very likely potential buyers (in the last stages of signing a contract).

Начало серийных поставок Су-35 планируется на 2011 г.г.

http://www.sukhoi.org/news/company/?id=1732

 

[Haavarla]

so basically, su-35 will still be a behemoth in terms of RCS. With the way flanker is designed, you can only reduce its signature by so much. To say anything else would be buying into Sukhoi's marketing ploy.

Well.. The size really matters
I read some place that the RCS of the new Su-35 will be approx. the same as the F-16..
But this is hear say..
We will have to wait and see, wont we..

The straight intake of the Su-35BM generate more power to the Engine, than let's say the hidden compressor fans like F-35 and F-22.

And the Su-35 need more power, because it's size and more weight.

 

[Haavarla]

Getting it down to an F-15 in terms of RCS would be very impressive. After all the F-15 is a late 4th gen. air superiority fighter (I'm assuming you mean the current ones). So is the Su-35BM. Also DID did an excellent article on it. On RCS they say:



http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Russias-SU-35-Mystery-Fighter-No-More-04969/

Also Sukhoi in an official release mentions deliveries of the Su-35 around the 2011 timeframe, so there must be buyers or at least very likely potential buyers (in the last stages of signing a contract).


Thrust me there is no byers for the Su-35BM as we speak.
But nevertheless the Sukhoi will go forward with the new Su-35BM regardless..
It's importent for the develoment of the PAK-FA.
They will test out a hole bunch of new tec. on those Su-35BM.
It could wery well be some byers in the future.

Normally they build some 8-12 aircraft on the prototype/test stadium, after the KNAAPO is satisfied with their test program they hand them over to Sukhoi. The Sukhoi own test division will do the final tests and seterfication on the airplains. After that they usually turn some of those aircraft into demonstrator for sales and promoting, hopefully by then they will have som buyers

 

[Feanor]

Again there are currently negotiations with Venezuela, or at least there were earlier, about the Su-35, and the Libyan deal (exact contents were not disclosed possible that it hasn't been decided yet) supposedly included Su-35's. I've posted this before in this thread, more then once iirc. Please read through my previous posts before replying and of course the official line seems to be that the VVS is buying them, which means that it already has at least one buyer.

 

[Haavarla]

Again there are currently negotiations with Venezuela, or at least there were earlier, about the Su-35, and the Libyan deal (exact contents were not disclosed possible that it hasn't been decided yet) supposedly included Su-35's. I've posted this before in this thread, more then once iirc. Please read through my previous posts before replying and of course the official line seems to be that the VVS is buying them, which means that it already has at least one buyer.

I wouldn't put too much money into those reports about VVS ordering New Su-35BM at this stage.
Even if the VSS has a lot more money to spend these days, their funding isn't endless.
They have ordered upgrades on the exsisting Su-27 fleet.
Havent the VVS also ordered 8-12 new Tu-160 and are currently upgrading those 12 Tu-160 that are operative right now?
Or is this order cannceled?
That was the major problem of the Tu-160.. they was too expencive?

 

[Salty Dog]

AFAIK Sukhoi with the Su-35 has received a RFP from Brazil for the FX-2 fighter competition.

Discussion in progress. . . .

 

[Feanor]

I wouldn't put too much money into those reports about VVS ordering New Su-35BM at this stage.
Even if the VSS has a lot more money to spend these days, their funding isn't endless.
They have ordered upgrades on the exsisting Su-27 fleet.

This is ongoing currently at about 24 airframes a year (1 regiment). Out of 7 regiments, 2.5 will be overhauled by this fall. That means that at current rates, the entire fleet will be overhauled by middle of 2013. Su-35BM purchases are slated around 2011 and onward. If we consider that the first few purchases will be evaluatory and small in size, no major purchases are likely until around 2013-2015. Thus it would not interfere with the SM program at all. And if we consider that 2-3 regiments may not be overhauled at all, because they would be slated for receiving new Su-35BM's in a few years, then the two programs fit together neatly like puzzle pieces.

Havent the VVS also ordered 8-12 new Tu-160 and are currently upgrading those 12 Tu-160 that are operative right now?
Or is this order cannceled?
That was the major problem of the Tu-160.. they was too expencive?

The Tu-160 is being built at a rate of 2 every 3 years, with the current fleet of 15 being upgraded (at least one has already completed upgrade and two new ones have been received). As far as I know there is no actual contract for a certain number, rather just money given from each annual budget to the purchase and upgrade.

 

[Haavarla]

This is ongoing currently at about 24 airframes a year (1 regiment). Out of 7 regiments, 2.5 will be overhauled by this fall. That means that at current rates, the entire fleet will be overhauled by middle of 2013. Su-35BM purchases are slated around 2011 and onward. If we consider that the first few purchases will be evaluatory and small in size, no major purchases are likely until around 2013-2015. Thus it would not interfere with the SM program at all. And if we consider that 2-3 regiments may not be overhauled at all, because they would be slated for receiving new Su-35BM's in a few years, then the two programs fit together neatly like puzzle pieces.



The Tu-160 is being built at a rate of 2 every 3 years, with the current fleet of 15 being upgraded (at least one has already completed upgrade and two new ones have been received). As far as I know there is no actual contract for a certain number, rather just money given from each annual budget to the purchase and upgrade.

Many thx for the update, i didn't know the Su-27 upgrade program was that big..:unknown

What is the content of the Su-27SM update?

 

[swerve]

182 is unlikely. Highly unlikely. Currently MDB listed 7 regiments of Su-27's in the VVS, out of which 36 are upgraded to the SM standard. Each regiment is roughly 2 squardons of 12 planes. 12 times 2 times 7 = ~168 planes. Maybe a little more (spare airframes, some regiments having an extra squadrons). 182 would replace practically the entire existing Flanker fleet.

EDIT: I can certainly see ~36 of the Su-35BM, with about another 120 of the SM2 standard Su-27's, and a handful of PAK-FA around the 2020 timeframe.

Feanor,

can I ask a favour? Would it be possible for you to give me a similar breakdown of other major types in the VVS, & their approximate numbers?

 

[Haavarla]

This is ongoing currently at about 24 airframes a year (1 regiment). Out of 7 regiments, 2.5 will be overhauled by this fall. That means that at current rates, the entire fleet will be overhauled by middle of 2013. Su-35BM purchases are slated around 2011 and onward. If we consider that the first few purchases will be evaluatory and small in size, no major purchases are likely until around 2013-2015. Thus it would not interfere with the SM program at all. And if we consider that 2-3 regiments may not be overhauled at all, because they would be slated for receiving new Su-35BM's in a few years, then the two programs fit together neatly like puzzle pieces.



The Tu-160 is being built at a rate of 2 every 3 years, with the current fleet of 15 being upgraded (at least one has already completed upgrade and two new ones have been received). As far as I know there is no actual contract for a certain number, rather just money given from each annual budget to the purchase and upgrade.

Does anyone know how much upgraded the Su-33(carrier) regiment is today?

Which type of engine and radar and so on..?