kiwipatriot69
Active Member
A fire sale by the looks of it. Hope there's not too much of a gap between offloading the ipv and their replacement then.
Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter Padman
- Start date
I see we have the normal standard of journalism in the link, reporting that the boats are british built. only half a world away from were they were built. I suppose we can credit them with getting the right planet in the solar system.So it's seems official, Ireland is reportedly set to procure the two ex RNZN Lake Class Inshore patrol vessels from New Zealand.
Ireland to procure two patrol vessels from New Zealand
Ireland is reportedly set to procure two patrol vessels from New Zealand in a bid to bolster maritime security.www.naval-technology.com
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CJohn
Active Member
The replacement for the two ex navy IPV's is the third OPV, or more precisely the Southern Ocean Patrol Vessel.
This will be a large vessel reading from the RFI.
The RFI states a vessel 90-115m long, 60 crew plus 40 extra personnel, range of 12000nm and min. 50 days endurance, Polar class 5 and ice breaking ability of 1.0m first year sea ice.
The RFI closed in June '21, Detailed Business Case to Cabinet first quarter 2022, into service 2027.
This is considered to be in the mix.
VARD 9 203 - Vard Marine
The VARD 9 203 is an Antarctic vessel designed for the Chilean Navy to perform multiple missions operating in the Antarctic Polar Circle. The missions include logistics support, search and rescue, and scientific research vessel.
vardmarine.com
kiwipatriot69
Active Member
So, if the ipv sale happens within the next year or so, we'll be at a minimum 5 years without a replacement, which would still leave us a ship short on current numbers?The replacement for the two ex navy IPV's is the third OPV, or more precisely the Southern Ocean Patrol Vessel.
This will be a large vessel reading from the RFI.
The RFI states a vessel 90-115m long, 60 crew plus 40 extra personnel, range of 12000nm and min. 50 days endurance, Polar class 5 and ice breaking ability of 1.0m first year sea ice.
The RFI closed in June '21, Detailed Business Case to Cabinet first quarter 2022, into service 2027.
This is considered to be in the mix.
VARD 9 203 - Vard Marine
The VARD 9 203 is an Antarctic vessel designed for the Chilean Navy to perform multiple missions operating in the Antarctic Polar Circle. The missions include logistics support, search and rescue, and scientific research vessel.
I would have thought the current climate over the last few years we'd at least look at more than just a extra Opv.
Stuart M
Well-Known Member
Are those Ipc's laid up for want of crew and mission though? Not sure RNZN will miss them tbh, they are not super capable vessels.
Re "more than just an extra OPV", that's a concept of operations type question, and I think NZDF is alive to the issues, but I don't think the government or treasury are.
Yes, Vard design some good ships. Personally I was thinking we'd tag onto the end of the Jan Mayen build for the Norwegian navy.The replacement for the two ex navy IPV's is the third OPV, or more precisely the Southern Ocean Patrol Vessel.
This will be a large vessel reading from the RFI.
The RFI states a vessel 90-115m long, 60 crew plus 40 extra personnel, range of 12000nm and min. 50 days endurance, Polar class 5 and ice breaking ability of 1.0m first year sea ice.
The RFI closed in June '21, Detailed Business Case to Cabinet first quarter 2022, into service 2027.
This is considered to be in the mix.
VARD 9 203 - Vard Marine
The VARD 9 203 is an Antarctic vessel designed for the Chilean Navy to perform multiple missions operating in the Antarctic Polar Circle. The missions include logistics support, search and rescue, and scientific research vessel.
Jan Mayen-Class Vessels
The Jan Mayen-class (P6615 Project) vessels are being built by VARD Langsten shipyard in Norway for the Norwegian Coast Guard (Kystvakten).
At 136m it's larger than specified in the RFI but the extra size would come in useful in the Southern Ocean and in any South China Sea type confrontation.
Norway are reportedly getting a class of three built for 617m USD. While acknowledging the difference between governments accounting methods, a NZG purchase probably wouldn't break the bank.
RNZN, IMHO at least, need to look to commonality with the eventual OPV and LOSV replacement hulls as well. A navy full of single and two vessel classes is not very efficient from a maintenance and training perspective.
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Yes, and by navys own admission, could not maintain seagoing days through lack of specialists. Fisheries (arguably their largest customer) also noted the lack of available days, which obviously impacts their targets as well.
The fact they were laid up all this time (hardly a secret) and the fact their replacement is still merely a concept and nowhere even near completion only adds to the fact considering there has even been at least a frigates worth of crew floating around for at least 1 of those years. The whole MIQ debacle has not helped, merely provided something for the other trades to do in the interim.
At least someone will use them for their intended purpose, ironically Ireland is going through similar if not worse manning issues atm. I don't think govt is in too much of a hurry so obviously shows either A. It's actual importance or B. They don't have the pers to operate anyway....not looking very good for another frigate or mooted troop transport either way you splice it.
There is an official announcement of the IPV sale here:
www.nzdf.mil.nz
Two former RNZN Inshore Patrol Vessels sold to The Republic of Ireland
The New Zealand Defence Force will sell two decommissioned Royal New Zealand Navy (RNZN) Inshore Patrol Vessels ex HMNZS Rotoiti and HMNZS Pukaki to the Republic of Ireland Department of Defence.
www.nzdf.mil.nz
Yes good news, at least the Irish will get them back in use. I think manning issues has always largely been the issue with the IPVs... ultimately that is mainly budget driven too!
A 3rd Frigate was never on the agenda and as for the SOPV & eventual complement to Canterbury (LHD?) I suspect they will either be down-scaled significantly, or the can just kicked way further down the road. Basically the Govt & (current) opposition are going to be looking soon for easy-meat in spending cuts and guess what will be top of the list in the cross-hairs....Defence? Say what you like about the obviously fraught security security challenges we face... it'll all be about the dollar and our 'independent foreign policy' which is really just a bucket of sand.
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
To replace two Peacock-class patrol vessels that were launched in the 1980's (and at twice the displacement)!There is an official announcement of the IPV sale here:
Two former RNZN Inshore Patrol Vessels sold to The Republic of Ireland
The New Zealand Defence Force will sell two decommissioned Royal New Zealand Navy (RNZN) Inshore Patrol Vessels ex HMNZS Rotoiti and HMNZS Pukaki to the Republic of Ireland Department of Defence.
Ireland Confirms Purchase of Inshore Patrol Naval Vessels from New Zealand
“The investment of some €26 million in these two inshore patrol vessels will provide replacements for LÉ Orla and LÉ Ciara”
Ireland buys two retired inshore patrol vessels from New Zealand
Ireland and New Zealand have reached an agreement on the sale of two decommissioned Royal New Zealand Navy (RNZN) inshore patrol vessels to the Irish Naval Service. Both countries' defense ministries announced the deal on Sunday, revealing a price tag of €26 million for the two vessels. Former
defbrief.com
The most intriguing aspect is that there has been no official announcement from the Govt (the DefMin hasn't issued any media releases for almost two months), seems poor form for the NZG to leave it to the NZDF to make the announcement.
Putting aside DCP19 (which formalised the two IPV's decommissioning), the Minister of Finance will be most pleased with the NZDF making a timely sacrifice and all will be well .... until the Govt wakes up and is forced to make real changes to Defence to reflect the worsening strategic environment!
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
HMNZS Matataua, the RNZN's Littoral Warfare Unit, is expected to acquire the AeroVironment Puma UAS as part of its Littoral Warfare Uncrewed Aerial System (LW UAS) project. This Shephard news article quotes the NZDF saying the project has been delayed though, due to the "organisational impact of COVID-19" (presumably because personnel have been redirected to support MIQ ... good thing MIQ duties are or have ended just recently, so perhaps the project will get back on track sooner than expected when the article was written last month).
For more info on the Puma in RN service to gain some insights on their use at sea:
www.naval-technology.com
www.maritime-executive.com
The NZ Army has been evaluating a RQ-20 Puma, but looks like the RNZN acquisition will be for operational use.
Short video of the USMC training at Waiouru Military Camp using the RQ-20 Puma and its operation.
For more info on the Puma in RN service to gain some insights on their use at sea:
Royal Navy squadron trains on Puma and Wasp UAS systems
A team from the UK Royal Navy’s 700X Naval Air Squadron (NAS) has received training on the Puma and Wasp unmanned aircraft system in the US.
Drones Boost Capability of Royal Navy's Patrol Vessels
Drones could play a key role in tracking drug runners and smugglers after successful trials with the...
www.maritime-executive.com
The NZ Army has been evaluating a RQ-20 Puma, but looks like the RNZN acquisition will be for operational use.
Short video of the USMC training at Waiouru Military Camp using the RQ-20 Puma and its operation.
The SOPV project has been cancelled.
"Southern Ocean Patrol Vessel Project (SOPV) - Request for Information Update
The Southern Ocean Patrol Vessel project was initiated to examine and assess the value of an ice-capable vessel that would provide dedicated patrol and support capabilities in Aotearoa New Zealand’s Exclusive Economic Zone, the Southern Ocean, and the Ross Sea.
In 2021, the Ministry of Defence undertook a formal Request for Information (RFI) with industry to support the development of a business case for a new Southern Ocean Patrol Vessel. In light of the ongoing impact resulting from COVID 19 further work is not being undertaken at this stage as Defence seeks to confirm investment priorities and to reprioritise resources.
Date RFx was completed/updated: Tuesday, 15 March 2022 11:29 AM (Pacific/Auckland UTC+13:00)"
GETS | Ministry of Defence - Request for Information - Design and Build of a Southern Ocean Patrol Vessel (SOPV)
This phrase "... Defence seeks to confirm investment priorities and to reprioritise resources. ..." interests me and I have a sense of foreboding about it.
"Southern Ocean Patrol Vessel Project (SOPV) - Request for Information Update
The Southern Ocean Patrol Vessel project was initiated to examine and assess the value of an ice-capable vessel that would provide dedicated patrol and support capabilities in Aotearoa New Zealand’s Exclusive Economic Zone, the Southern Ocean, and the Ross Sea.
In 2021, the Ministry of Defence undertook a formal Request for Information (RFI) with industry to support the development of a business case for a new Southern Ocean Patrol Vessel. In light of the ongoing impact resulting from COVID 19 further work is not being undertaken at this stage as Defence seeks to confirm investment priorities and to reprioritise resources.
Date RFx was completed/updated: Tuesday, 15 March 2022 11:29 AM (Pacific/Auckland UTC+13:00)"
GETS | Ministry of Defence - Request for Information - Design and Build of a Southern Ocean Patrol Vessel (SOPV)
This phrase "... Defence seeks to confirm investment priorities and to reprioritise resources. ..." interests me and I have a sense of foreboding about it.
kiwipatriot69
Active Member
They why sell off the IPV? For a fraction of what was paid for them, leaving us now with a capability gap, when that goes ahead?
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
Are you sure it has been cancelled? From reading the GETS info it looks like Labour (the Minister of Finance to be exact) are simply doing what they said they would a year or so ago, which is to review the DCP plan (in other words stall and extend things out a few years so they don't have to do much i.e. spend much during this parliamentary term (which is until late 2023), recall the DefMin has prioritised expenditure on "people" and infrastructure.
BTW I'm not at all agreeing with the NZG stance, it's incredibly absurd (when they are on a massive multi (tens of) billion spending spree elsewhere) and tone death to the current geo-political situation (I suspect these guys will be forced to do their defence reset only when either internal polling or international criticism gets to them ... which could be "tomorrow" if that were to happen, not that it will though unfortunately).
I expect then that the maritime helicopter replacement project is also "stalled".
To be perfectly honest, as disappointing and absurd as this all is, I would rather these projects be "delayed" as the last thing we need is for Labour to do a "Project Protector" and compromise the projects with unrealistic budgets and interference with requirements (or kill them off completely). On current polling the govt will be voted out in 18 months time, if so, I'd rather see minimal damage done now so the "grown ups" can pick things up again then!
Yes true recce.k1... as of last year they were talking delays, mind you that's a long time in politic, so anybody's guess at the mo:
Stuff
www.stuff.co.nz
DefMin...what's his name...oh wait, we don't have one do we? Hang on, yes we do, or is he the shadow minister...he seems to linger in them, maybe I'm imagining him...maybe COVID got him, or aliens..dunno! Anyway in that Stuff article I got the impression he might've been cornered by the question and I'm hoping his response subtly shows a Govt secretly acknowledging a groundswell that NZ isn't doing enough heavy lifting... baby steps maybe!?! Or maybe I'm just in fantasy land... whoa is that Jacinda over there?
@recce.k1 & @Gibbo The way I see it is that for all intents and purposes the project is cancelled. "Defence seeks to confirm investment priorities and to reprioritise resources" is pretty clear. It may be resurrected later in a different form, but not under this government and finance minister. Yep, the Seasprite replacement project will most likely have been knocked back a few years as well. The stupid thing is that the country can afford it, plus a lot more, so it's a purely politically and ideologically driven decision.
The Professional Journal of the RNZN was published last July. This is the link to the pdf copy. I haven't read it yet so can't comment on the contents.
Boardgamer88
Member
Here an article about the deferral
Covid costs force 'deferral' of Navy ship project
Despite concerns about the capability of our naval fleet, plans for a new ship are going on ice.
www.google.com