Good order five then. They are a hindrance.
Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter Padman
- Start date
As others have said, especially some the RAN Thread contributors, the analysis by ASPI are a bit light on facts.
Despite the talk of magazine volume and Ozi industry, it is my understanding that the program is advancing ok and that the Hunter Class will be a first class GP warship that would give RNZN a huge boost in capability.
Perhaps we should look at an immediate Sth Korean 2 FFG buy to rapidly increase our numbers, in parallel with 4 Hunter's over the longer term IOT increase our war fighting frigates to 6?
Despite the talk of magazine volume and Ozi industry, it is my understanding that the program is advancing ok and that the Hunter Class will be a first class GP warship that would give RNZN a huge boost in capability.
Perhaps we should look at an immediate Sth Korean 2 FFG buy to rapidly increase our numbers, in parallel with 4 Hunter's over the longer term IOT increase our war fighting frigates to 6?
IMO there's two main areas with potential for joint procurement between AU and NZ:
1) The NZ Southern Patrol Vessel / AU Ocean Protector replacement. A common type (e.g. Harry DeWolf-class) allowing for a highly integrated approach to patrol and presence in the Southern Ocean and Antartica.
2) A mid-sized multipurpose/GP frigate - which for NZ would replace both the OPVs and FFHs with one, flexible type. For AU it would act to fill the gap between Arafura and Hobart/Hunter.
@ddxx
A gentle warning.
The subject of a tier 2 frigate for Australian use has been done to death. There is neither budget or DoD support for such an option. The Hunter will be in build well before any Australian production facility can produce such a vessel (and this would likely displace current projects) and building offshore compromises Australia's desire for domestic build supported by a domestic logistics train.
Until such stage as this situation changes this subject should be dropped. Folk need to understand that setting up to build a new class of vessel is not a simply process and takes time both to set to work and to arrange the supply of equipment and systems. A vessel expected to go in harms way would need to have capability the same as, or better than, the ASMD Anzac. This would be a complex vessel.
alexsa
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A VARD-7-100-AOPV-ICE which is the Harry DeWolff Class would be an ideal platform for the SOPV, with some modifications of course. It would have to conform with the Antarctic Treaty, so weapons wise it wouldn't be able to carry much, but FFBNW can be utilised. That applies both to NZ & Australia.
I have been thinking that if we got FFGs the size of the Arrowhead 140 or greater, we would require something around the 3,500 tonne size that was a corvette able to undertake the current OPV roles and also be able to escort convoys if necessary, but have a crew about half a FFG size. So you'd be looking at 40 - 50 bods and with automation and what not you can do that, as well as accommodation for mission specialists and sea riders. Such a ship wouldn't require MH-60R helos but the AW139M would be an ideal helo for it. It's marinised, armed and can do some ASW as well as ASuW if required.
Shanesworld
Well-Known Member
You mean the freedom class? ....... (walks away briskly)
protoplasm
Active Member
Just keep walking…
That's not very nice
I would've said start running.They probably would at that. Replace the GT's combining gear and all the complicated stuff that's causing the propulsion problems with a couple of goodly sized MTU diesels with appropriate gearboxes and Bob's your aunty. There's nothing wrong with the hull and they don't need to be all sexied up. A 57mm gun on the foc'sle and a 30mm atop the hangar would do the job. VLS & FFBNW AShM & decoys etc.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
I would disagree with the above assessment. The hulls themselves were specifically designed to enable both high speed and blue water transits, with a variety of compromises required in order to meet those twin requirements. Now changing out the engines/machinery and gearboxes might solve certain problems the designs have had, as well as reduce the notional top speed, but it will not change some of the other effects of the compromises.
IIRC the LCS designs have some fairly limited DWT available, which would put limitations on just how much 'extra' stuff, munitions, weapon systems, etc. could be loaded onto one of the vessels. One needs to remember that the LCS designs are roughly the same size and displacement as the ANZAC-class frigates, but have a significantly shorter range and smaller/less capable weapons fitout, particularly if measured against the RAN's upgraded ANZAC-class frigates. Changing the propulsion systems might enable an increase in DWT which could be used to increase range and/or weapons fitout, but one would still be talking about an essentially frigate-sized vessel with an armament of a corvette and limited displacement to make upgrades.
Add in the minimalist crew philosophy of the design, which in USN service turned to be insufficient for the vessel crew to keep up with the maintenance and upkeep of the vessels and required more to be done in port when access to additional personnel was available...
The idea is for a corvette to replace the OPVs and that's what the Freedom Class hull would be looked at for IF it was considered. Also don't forget that the RNZN and the Commonwealth navies have a different crewing philosophy to the USN which is less manpower intensive than the USN. We don't have the hyper specialisation that the US military favours.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
The USN crews the LCS classes with a core crew of only ~50, which the USN has found to be insufficient to keep up with maintenance while at sea. Max embarked personnel tops out around ~80 personnel, which means that there would be limited opportunity to get enough bodies aboard to keep up with what is needed while at sea.
Personally I do not this that the RNZN should go down the corvette path, for much the same reasons that the RAN should not either. However, if at some point a decision is made to do so, then IMO it would be better if the RNZN selected a proper corvette, rather than a frigate-sized corvette. Using the German K130 corvette as a reference, a significantly smaller vessel (dimensions and displacement) can be had with a slightly greater range as well as armament fitout. In some respects this is sort of like how comparisons can be made between fast-cat/tri ferries and conventional monohulled cargo vessels. Under the right set of circumstances, a fast ferry can deliver a load much more rapidly than a conventional mono-hull vessel, but in general a conventional hull can deliver vastly more vehicles or cargo in a single transit than a fast ferry might deliver over the course of several transits.
We would be looking at a 3,000 - 3,500 tonne corvette because of the extra weight the ship would be required to carry. Realistically we would only get three frigates; four would be a real stretch and the OPVs we do have are not capable of anything beyond a constabulary role. Unfortunately we aren't in a benign strategic environment and corvettes would give us a bit more teeth at sea. We really don't have any choice.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Once you get into the 3k+ tonne range, then one is realistically looking at a frigate and not a corvette. It would become a question of vessel fitout and well as planned endurance and range.
Also OPV's are designed for constab roles, often having ranges comparable to that of frigates despite usually being smaller (dimensions and displacement). One of the key differences between OPV's and proper warships has to do with their armament, sensor and CMS fitouts, with OPV's normally having much less capability, and a resulting lower cost. The German K130 Batch 1 corvettes ordered back in 2001 were about €240 mil. whilst the RNZN's OPV's were ~NZD$110 mil. in ~2010. While attempting to account for both inflation as well as currency valuations is rather difficult it does appear that the cost of one of the corvettes is several times what one of the OPV's were. I suspect that if the funding used for the whole of the Project Protector was instead used to purchase comparable corvettes, it would only have been sufficient for two corvettes at most.
It then becomes a matter of defining what capabilities the RNZN really needs from various vessels, and attempting to match that with what funding can be gotten.
Don't forget Project Protector was a political sap by an anti defence govt. They apparently wanted to get rid of the frigates as well.
Stuart M
Well-Known Member
If the CCPs navy does in the South Pacific as many here anticipate, perhaps the question is what is a constabulary situation in such rapidly changing circumstances, and perhaps a corvette level of armament and sensor fit should be the basis for future consideration?
Shanesworld
Well-Known Member
I seem to recall the freedom class has 660 tons spare of mission payload. Not 100 % but thats with 2 of the three top side slots filled.
One thing in the positive for freedom is the availability. I. E we could have up to 7/9 in service as soon as we could crew them.
Downside is wiring, welding, gearbox, crew overload......
But for a ship load of sav and a couple of queenstown apartments i reckon we could get them cheap. And 12 months time will tell if availability overides the classes technical flaws.
One thing in the positive for freedom is the availability. I. E we could have up to 7/9 in service as soon as we could crew them.
Downside is wiring, welding, gearbox, crew overload......
But for a ship load of sav and a couple of queenstown apartments i reckon we could get them cheap. And 12 months time will tell if availability overides the classes technical flaws.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Availability and price would be attractive but the technical issues are very real which will likely scare off pollies. If this acquisition were to happen and become a C-F it would doom the political party/parties involved for a generation or more IMO.
You need to add some value to this post as to why should it be considered. You appear to be impressed by the 'look' without really looking at required capability. You note the range but 4000 to 45000 nm (fitted for but not with) is nothing exceptional compared to the 6000nm for the current Protector OPV's.Asfat of Turkey are selling six 86m OPVs to the Philippines. I like the layout of these vessels and the range. The budget for the six OPVs is 30 billion PHP or about US$570m. The only thing missing is a helo hanger, but Asfat has a larger 100m version with a full size hanger. Something like that might be a useful replacement for NZs OPVs.
Turkish ASFAT set to export OPV to the Philippines - Naval News
Turkish state-owned ASFAT Inc. announced the signing of a memorandum of understanding with the PADC during ADAS 2022 in Manila, Philippines.www.navalnews.com
Is it suitable for the sea conditions that the RNZN will operate in? I do not that ice class appears to be a requirement along with sea keeping in high sea states. I doubt that is the case noting there is no indication that either the 86m or 100m option have that capability.
Radio NZ are reporting that the frigate Te Mana may be on her way home soon (where that information comes from I don't know, there has been no official Defence release as far as I know, other than the "mid-2022" on the MoD project page). Link. Usual standards of NZ mainstream journalist sensationalism apply; be warned. NZ Herald's headline on it's version of the same article is even more amusing.
Meanwhile, this project just keeps getting more & more absurd: Reports from Canada say the court case between Sea Span & Lockheed Martin Canada (they are now countersuing each other) has hit a snag. Every page of the court documents (some 200,000) is being assessed by the Canadian govt over national security concerns - at one page an hour! A quick calculation suggests that, even working around the clock, that could take nearly 23 years! Maybe that's a hint the two parties should find a better way. Link
Meanwhile, this project just keeps getting more & more absurd: Reports from Canada say the court case between Sea Span & Lockheed Martin Canada (they are now countersuing each other) has hit a snag. Every page of the court documents (some 200,000) is being assessed by the Canadian govt over national security concerns - at one page an hour! A quick calculation suggests that, even working around the clock, that could take nearly 23 years! Maybe that's a hint the two parties should find a better way. Link