Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[ngatimozart]

Here an article about the deferral

Covid costs force 'deferral' of Navy ship project

Despite concerns about the capability of our naval fleet, plans for a new ship are going on ice.

www.google.com

Of course all the reasons cited by the government are absolute rubbish. They can certainly afford the vessel but it's the Minister of Finance who's not wanting to fund it for political reasons. The latest Treasury figures out give lie to his affordability reasons when he's splashing cash out left, right, and centre. Currently the government debt as % GDP (Jan 22) is 39.7% and is forecast to be 35.1% for the 2021 / 22 Financial Year which ends 30/7/22.

 

[Samson]

For those who like to read the second volume of the Professional Journal of Royal New Zealand Navy is now available:

https://www.nzdf.mil.nz/assets/Uploads/DocumentLibrary/RNZN-Journal_Vol-2_No.-One_online.pdf

Unfortunately, after the journal was submitted to be published the editor and great friend of the NZDF, Dr Lance Beath passed away.

I have only had time to briefly read over the document although one section did stand out:

On page 25 under future projects by Jon Finderup – Director Maritime Domain – Ministry of Defence.

Preliminary studies have begun to define what the composition of the future fleet may be. This work will look at fleet numbers and the possibility of combining multiple roles into similar or identical hull types. The outcome of this fleet composition study will inform future capability replacement projects, including the future surface combatant requirement and the enhanced sealift vessels needed to support deploying land forces, and other NZDF and All of Government roles.
With regard to the other three maritime projects described in the Defence Capability Plan 2019,1(the Maritime Helicopter Replacement Project, Enhanced Sealift Vessels and the Offshore Patrol Vessels Replacement Project), full definition studies of these are not yet underway, except in so far as these projects are relevant to the future fleet composition study. Some pre- definition work is being done on maritime helicopters before this is formally established as a project.

The rest of it I’m still reading

 

[ngatimozart]

For those who like to read the second volume of the Professional Journal of Royal New Zealand Navy is now available:

https://www.nzdf.mil.nz/assets/Uploads/DocumentLibrary/RNZN-Journal_Vol-2_No.-One_online.pdf

Unfortunately, after the journal was submitted to be published the editor and great friend of the NZDF, Dr Lance Beath passed away.

I have only had time to briefly read over the document although one section did stand out:

On page 25 under future projects by Jon Finderup – Director Maritime Domain – Ministry of Defence.

Preliminary studies have begun to define what the composition of the future fleet may be. This work will look at fleet numbers and the possibility of combining multiple roles into similar or identical hull types. The outcome of this fleet composition study will inform future capability replacement projects, including the future surface combatant requirement and the enhanced sealift vessels needed to support deploying land forces, and other NZDF and All of Government roles.
With regard to the other three maritime projects described in the Defence Capability Plan 2019,1(the Maritime Helicopter Replacement Project, Enhanced Sealift Vessels and the Offshore Patrol Vessels Replacement Project), full definition studies of these are not yet underway, except in so far as these projects are relevant to the future fleet composition study. Some pre- definition work is being done on maritime helicopters before this is formally established as a project.

The rest of it I’m still reading

Yep I posted the link here a couple of weeks back and I only found it because of the ANI newsletter. I too am working my way through it. Don't know why it was advertised as being published. RNZN a bit slack there.

 

[Boardgamer88]

Hyundai Heavy Industries who are knocking up the Aotearoa as we speak have a "Helicopter Dock Landing" design the HDL-18000 which is 18000t, 199m length, 31m beam and 6.6m draft. I believe it was offered as part of the LPX project and is accordingly similar in dimensions to the Hanjin Heavy Industries Dokdo Class.

So basically it's an LHD then? I think maybe a tad large for our requirements, but if it could be scaled down to say 13,000 or 14,000 tonnes then it would be ideal. However steel is cheap and air is free and it might be easier to leave it at 18,000 tonnes.

Funnily enough, Hyundai Heavy Industries (HHI) have just unveiled the new HDL-13000 MRSS at the Defence Service Asia Exhibition and Conference (DSA) 2022 held in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

HDL-13000, unveiled by HHI at DSA 2022, is a multi-role support ship which has 160 meters of length overall, 25 meters of beam, and a displacement of 13,000 tons. This vessel will serve as a main platform for the force’s logistics support and also Humanitarian and Disaster Relief (HADR) operation.

Can't tell you if it suitable for the RNZN, but I thought you guys might like the update.

 

[ngatimozart]

Yes I saw that and have filed it away on my list of possibilities. It has possibilities and is about the right size. I think that it would meet most of our requirements and there would be room to move with the design. I like the idea of the gun and the 16 cell VLS. I don't think that we would need to go 5in but a fully auto 57mm gun with FUZE 3P ammo or similar would be good. I am of the school of thought that believes all phat ships should be well armed to provide for their own defence. So with 16 VLS that's 48 Sea Ceptor SAM. I would also fit some NSM in box launchers and some Spike LR plus two LIG-N1 30mm CIWS II. That would give it a good self defence capability.

 

[spoz]

The Kiwi government would never buy that, it's got a gun (shock, horror)

 

[ngatimozart]

The Kiwi government would never buy that, it's got a gun (shock, horror)

We have a cunning plan for that. We will tell them that it's a possum, rat, and stoat removal implement for the use of removing said pests from National Parks and Island Reserves.

 

[Rob c]

Yes I saw that and have filed it away on my list of possibilities. It has possibilities and is about the right size. I think that it would meet most of our requirements and there would be room to move with the design. I like the idea of the gun and the 16 cell VLS. I don't think that we would need to go 5in but a fully auto 57mm gun with FUZE 3P ammo or similar would be good. I am of the school of thought that believes all phat ships should be well armed to provide for their own defence. So with 16 VLS that's 48 Sea Ceptor SAM. I would also fit some NSM in box launchers and some Spike LR plus two LIG-N1 30mm CIWS II. That would give it a good self defence capability.

Might need the 5in for fire support as we have little else to do the job

 

[ngatimozart]

Might need the 5in for fire support as we have little else to do the job

It's not really it's tasking. It is to land forces and their equipment. The armament that I have proposed is purely for its self defence. If NGS is required then that's a FFG / DDG tasking. They are free to manoeuvre at will whereas a LPD disembarking forces isn't.

 

[Rob c]

It's not really it's tasking. It is to land forces and their equipment. The armament that I have proposed is purely for its self defence. If NGS is required then that's a FFG / DDG tasking. They are free to manoeuvre at will whereas a LPD disembarking forces isn't.

Yep but when we don't have bugger all of any other supporting ships anything is better than nothing. We cannot guarantee that other militaries are not going to be tied up else were with their pressing problems when we might need to use the capability. The idea that we will always be operating with other better equipped friends is a little optimistic and we need the ability to operate on our own if the situation demands it. This may, hopefully a requirement seldom used, but necessary when the extreme could occur. Fire support for landing troops does not require a great deal of maneuver and I would think that the less maneuver the better would improve acracy or at least make it easer.
I would agree that fitting a 127mm to a LPD would be highly unlikely, consequently the emoji I placed after the original post .

 

[At lakes]

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/superyacht-seized-with-cocaine-worth-160m-to-be-sold-at-auction/ar-AAWxive?ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=34ec940a04104f04af155af9aa6e7964

Ngatimozart has previously advised that the Kahu is to go to auction after being detained for drug smuggling. An article in the digital media this morning give details. I particularly like the comment its a super yacht and it was previously owned by the RNZN. The article gives rise to the idea that RNZN sailors sailed around NZ in the lap of luxury on board a super yacht. The vessel is expected to fetch a couple of million, the cargo was worth 160 milliont.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/superyacht-seized-with-cocaine-worth-160m-to-be-sold-at-auction/ar-AAWxive?ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=34ec940a04104f04af155af9aa6e7964

Ngatimozart has previously advised that the Kahu is to go to auction after being detained for drug smuggling. An article in the digital media this morning give details. I particularly like the comment its a super yacht and it was previously owned by the RNZN. The article gives rise to the idea that RNZN sailors sailed around NZ in the lap of luxury on board a super yacht. The vessel is expected to fetch a couple of million, the cargo was worth 160 milliont.

Well it's certainly gone through a lot of upgrades since navy service! I'd say it's worth it going by the auction links.

 

[kiwi in exile]

Attached file courtesy of the RAN 2.0 thread and ASPI.
This is the short version:
Australia’s Hunter-class frigate program must be stopped and redirected | The Strategist
See also: Hunter-class frigates won’t meet the RAN’s needs | The Strategist

Some have suggested the Type 26/Hunter class as a potential replacement for our ANZACs- way out beyond 2030.
There are good point raised in these articles.
Magazine depth being one.
I know we are a different DF to the ADF, and there are always benefits in commonality with our closest ally, but theses arguments have value for future fleet planning.

I'm pessimistic that out future frigates/naval combat force will be optimised for HADR.

 

[ngatimozart]

Attached file courtesy of the RAN 2.0 thread and ASPI.
This is the short version:
Australia’s Hunter-class frigate program must be stopped and redirected | The Strategist
See also: Hunter-class frigates won’t meet the RAN’s needs | The Strategist

Some have suggested the Type 26/Hunter class as a potential replacement for our ANZACs- way out beyond 2030.
There are good point raised in these articles.
Magazine depth being one.
I know we are a different DF to the ADF, and there are always benefits in commonality with our closest ally, but theses arguments have value for future fleet planning.

I'm pessimistic that out future frigates/naval combat force will be optimised for HADR.

I wouldn't be too concerned with the ASPI analysis because their analytical abilities has gone downhill in recent years. They don't like the SSN idea either. Also the Hunter class isn't the best fit for NZ because it's an Australian make work program, it's quite expensive and it's to risky for us. The UK City Class is also to expensive, doesn't have a fitout that's suitable for us, and at present is risky. The RCN CSC has a good fitout that would be great for us but is expensive, probably more than the other because of Canadian defence procurement practices, Canadian domestic politics, and Canadian ship building practices. We found with the recent Anzac FFH upgrade that they are basically behind the times somewhat and still very much paper based. A NZ company had to send the Canadian contracting wiring diagrams for the frigates so asked them what CAD software format they wanted them in. The Canadians were perplexed because they don't use CAD in their ship building. Everything is based on paper and blueprints they said, so could you please supply the wiring diagrams on paper, thankyou.

 

[Stuart M]

Attached file courtesy of the RAN 2.0 thread and ASPI.
This is the short version:
Australia’s Hunter-class frigate program must be stopped and redirected | The Strategist
See also: Hunter-class frigates won’t meet the RAN’s needs | The Strategist

Some have suggested the Type 26/Hunter class as a potential replacement for our ANZACs- way out beyond 2030.
There are good point raised in these articles.
Magazine depth being one.
I know we are a different DF to the ADF, and there are always benefits in commonality with our closest ally, but theses arguments have value for future fleet planning.

I'm pessimistic that out future frigates/naval combat force will be optimised for HADR.

The issue with the Hunter class is that the Aussies have taken a good ASW platform and tried to turn it into a general purpose destroyer. So to my mind the issue is not the base design so much as Australia not being honest with themselves about what they need.
In this respect I would ignore entirely what Australia is doing and look at what NZ needs (reference point, imo, dubious CCP naval activity in the South Pacific from greyfare political pressure through to combat)

 

[Volkodav]

We have a cunning plan for that. We will tell them that it's a possum, rat, and stoat removal implement for the use of removing said pests from National Parks and Island Reserves.

A Prime ministerial saluting device? i.e. not a gun but something to puff a polly's ego

 

[Volkodav]

The issue with the Hunter class is that the Aussies have taken a good ASW platform and tried to turn it into a general purpose destroyer. So to my mind the issue is not the base design so much as Australia not being honest with themselves about what they need.
In this respect I would ignore entirely what Australia is doing and look at what NZ needs (reference point, imo, dubious CCP naval activity in the South Pacific from greyfare political pressure through to combat)

That comes back to the former secretary of defence categorically stating that the RAN was not getting a 10000 ton DDG, no matter how good a fit it was with the actual strategic outlook. This was the same Sec Def that tried to kill submarine building in Australia by selling the build in Japan plan to the new PM. End result an Australian design, or at worst and evolved Collins, with Kockums input (that would have been only a couple of years off delivering the first boat) was canned on favor of the French option and the rest is history.

 

[Stuart M]

That comes back to the former secretary of defence categorically stating that the RAN was not getting a 10000 ton DDG, no matter how good a fit it was with the actual strategic outlook. This was the same Sec Def that tried to kill submarine building in Australia by selling the build in Japan plan to the new PM. End result an Australian design, or at worst and evolved Collins, with Kockums input (that would have been only a couple of years off delivering the first boat) was canned on favor of the French option and the rest is history.

Hmmm, the secretary of defence was watching the box set of Yes Minister/Prime Minister wasn't he?

I reckon the Koreans would be more than happy to licence the Sejong the Great design to Aus, let the Hunters do ASW and an air warfare DDG do air warfare, this whole jack of all trades master of none philosophy is not doing AU any favours.

 

[Volkodav]

Hmmm, the secretary of defence was watching the box set of Yes Minister/Prime Minister wasn't he?

I reckon the Koreans would be more than happy to licence the Sejong the Great design to Aus, let the Hunters do ASW and an air warfare DDG do air warfare, this whole jack of all trades master of none philosophy is not doing AU any favours.

He was the ex Sec of Dept of Foreign Affairs and Trade (DFAT) and put greater stead in building alliances with Japan that maintaining our sovereign defence industrial capability. The end result was the current mess we are in, including damaged relations with Japan, Germany and France over successive submarine convulsions. So he not only screwed defence, he screwed foreign affairs, with the help of some political pork barreling and parochialism as well.

 

[Redlands18]

Hmmm, the secretary of defence was watching the box set of Yes Minister/Prime Minister wasn't he?

I reckon the Koreans would be more than happy to licence the Sejong the Great design to Aus, let the Hunters do ASW and an air warfare DDG do air warfare, this whole jack of all trades master of none philosophy is not doing AU any favours.

I don't think I want to know how much it would cost to load a Sejong the Great with Missiles, it would give the bean counters in Canberra a coronary.