Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[oldsig127]

News that the RAN is to get an extra six patrol boats to augment the existing vessels and replace the two borrowed from Border Force.

As usual, the press, ABC in this case, is questioning why six new ones for RAN will cost more than eight for border force without a single clue about what is or is not included or how the quoted figure was derived.

oldsig

Government fast-tracks $350 million defence project

Defence Minister Linda Reynolds has announced shipbuilder Austal will construct six new Cape Class vessels for the Royal Australian Navy in her home state of Western Australia.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Stampede]

Still, hard to be disappointed, they do look a just a little bigger than the Armidales. I hope the 20 room accommodation is much more effective than on the Armidales. It would be good to be able to use that capability.

Argh StingOZ I'm never satisfied.
Always looking at converting an OPV into a battleship , an LHD into an Aircraft carrier and a LCM1e into a LST !!!!!!!!!!!!

The additional accommodation for twenty personal is a smart move.
I can see the Arafura Class being a seismic jump over the patrol boat generations with additional bunk capacity necessary for the increased range of tasks this vessel will undertake.

I would certainly endorse the addition of spare accommodation across all major fleet units in the future.
The Hunter class have 28 extra bunks according to the Navy Fact file.
Not sure of the new Supply Class having spare accommodation???
Can someone clarify

Regards S

 

[BPFP]

News that the RAN is to get an extra six patrol boats to augment the existing vessels and replace the two borrowed from Border Force.

As usual, the press, ABC in this case, is questioning why six new ones for RAN will cost more than eight for border force without a single clue about what is or is not included or how the quoted figure was derived.

oldsig

Government fast-tracks $350 million defence project

Defence Minister Linda Reynolds has announced shipbuilder Austal will construct six new Cape Class vessels for the Royal Australian Navy in her home state of Western Australia.

www.abc.net.au

I understand that it is primarily the economic imperative driving this decision, but this is close to the cost of a third AOR. Which would be of more long-term benefit to the RAN? I was not aware that there was a pressing need for addtional patrol boat resources (happy to be corrected on this), and if there was, then surely extra OPVs would have been the better call.

 

[alexsa]

Ac

News that the RAN is to get an extra six patrol boats to augment the existing vessels and replace the two borrowed from Border Force.

As usual, the press, ABC in this case, is questioning why six new ones for RAN will cost more than eight for border force without a single clue about what is or is not included or how the quoted figure was derived.

oldsig

Government fast-tracks $350 million defence project

Defence Minister Linda Reynolds has announced shipbuilder Austal will construct six new Cape Class vessels for the Royal Australian Navy in her home state of Western Australia.

www.abc.net.au

Actually the two Navy Capes are under a different arrangement with Navy chartering them on a demise charter from the owner under a what could be described as a private financing arrangement. If this six are under the same process the cost would be spread over the effective life of the vessels. I have no confirmation this is the case.

I suspect the ACPB must have some issue for them to go down this path (apart from the obvious support for Austal). I just hope it does not impact the budget for other programmes.

 

[oldsig127]

I understand that it is primarily the economic imperative driving this decision, but this is close to the cost of a third AOR. Which would be of more long-term benefit to the RAN? I was not aware that there was a pressing need for addtional patrol boat resources (happy to be corrected on this), and if there was, then surely extra OPVs would have been the better call.

They aren't dressing it up as anything other than economic stimulus and in this case I think that's good news. Austal can swing in to building them a hell of a lot quicker than we could even start thinking about building an AOR in Australia, and at the moment Spain might like the stimulus but that won't help Australia. That means money and jobs flowing through the WA economy

Before the WA Mafia comes up, the government has repeatedly said since the COVID crisis began that the national shipbuilding plan would go ahead full steam, for the same purpose. More money flowing to more jobs in other states

oldsig

 

[Milne Bay]

Ac

Actually the two Navy Capes are under a different arrangement with Navy chartering them on a demise charter from the owner under a what could be described as a private financing arrangement. If this six are under the same process the cost would be spread over the effective life of the vessels. I have no confirmation this is the case.

I suspect the ACPB must have some issue for them to go down this path (apart from the obvious support for Austal). I just hope it does not impact the budget for other programmes.

Yes, it is definitely economic stimulus based, but that could have happened with a smaller order, two or three boats perhaps.
Like Alexsa, I think that the Armidales must be cracking up faster than was expected and need replacing soonest.
MB

 

[ASSAIL]

Yes, it is definitely economic stimulus based, but that could have happened with a smaller order, two or three boats perhaps.
Like Alexsa, I think that the Armidales must be cracking up faster than was expected and need replacing soonest.
MB

I think everyone reads in too much to the “broken” Armidale theory.
The oldest, HMAS Armidale is now 15 years old, these boats have a 15 year life projection, the same as the Fremantles and Attacks before them.
The majority of the ACPBs were delivered in 2006/7 so naturally they are ending their useful lives.

 

[t68]

News that the RAN is to get an extra six patrol boats to augment the existing vessels and replace the two borrowed from Border Force.

As usual, the press, ABC in this case, is questioning why six new ones for RAN will cost more than eight for border force without a single clue about what is or is not included or how the quoted figure was derived.

oldsig

Government fast-tracks $350 million defence project

Defence Minister Linda Reynolds has announced shipbuilder Austal will construct six new Cape Class vessels for the Royal Australian Navy in her home state of Western Australia.

www.abc.net.au

Any idea if they will be carbon copy in regards to armaments or will they mount the 25mm gun same as the RAN boats ACPB

 

[SteveR]

I understand that it is primarily the economic imperative driving this decision, but this is close to the cost of a third AOR. Which would be of more long-term benefit to the RAN? I was not aware that there was a pressing need for additional patrol boat resources (happy to be corrected on this), and if there was, then surely extra OPVs would have been the better call.

I have read somewhere in the last few months (but cannot now find the source) that the Arafura class have a draft that prevents them entering some of our shallower waters - perhaps Ashmore and Great Barrier Reefs? - and the purchase of more Capes has been on the agenda before Covid19 got serious.

Of course the post-2013 border strategy of turning back asylum boats just outside foreign territorial water requires vessels of Arafura sea keeping size to handle the open ocean conditions but this in turn limits their capacity to handle near reef incursions.

 

[oldsig127]

Any idea if they will be carbon copy in regards to armaments or will they mount the 25mm gun same as the RAN boats ACPB

Nothing but what you see in the ABC report I'm afraid. However, it IS one of the things that crossed my mind when I read the usual harping about how "the Navy buys ships that are twice as expensive as my 12' tinny" without any acknowledgement that they might have different equipment *and* include a lifetime supply of beer and fishing gear (sustainment).

Sorry about my flippancy. The non-specialist media drive me nuts.

oldsig

 

[ASSAIL]

Nothing but what you see in the ABC report I'm afraid. However, it IS one of the things that crossed my mind when I read the usual harping about how "the Navy buys ships that are twice as expensive as my 12' tinny" without any acknowledgement that they might have different equipment *and* include a lifetime supply of beer and fishing gear (sustainment).

Sorry about my flippancy. The non-specialist media drive me nuts.

oldsig

Sorry about my one liner but would you expect anything different from ABC Defence “expert” Andrew Greene?

 

[ASSAIL]

I have read somewhere in the last few months (but cannot now find the source) that the Arafura class have a draft that prevents them entering some of our shallower waters - perhaps Ashmore and Great Barrier Reefs? - and the purchase of more Capes has been on the agenda before Covid19 got serious.

Of course the post-2013 border strategy of turning back asylum boats just outside foreign territorial water requires vessels of Arafura sea keeping size to handle the open ocean conditions but this in turn limits their capacity to handle near reef incursions.

That’s a figment I’m afraid. The OPVs have a draft of 3mtrs (Lurrsen OPV 80 Data sheet) which is pretty average.
At this draft it is possible to enter the lagoon at Ashmore (I’ve done it) and go just about anywhere on the northern coast.
Naturally the state of the tide has to be considered particularly on the NW coast where Spring variations exceed 11mtrs or 13mtrs around King Sound.

 

[alexsa]

Any idea if they will be carbon copy in regards to armaments or will they mount the 25mm gun same as the RAN boats ACPB

The current Navy CCPB are copies of the customs versions and only have 50cals. They are not commissioned either and are designated ADV's. This does not mean they are not classified as warships for the purpose of the application of the Navigation Act 2012.

Austal are building two slightly varied CCPB for Tridad and Tobago so the follow on navy one may follow this format as the securing area for potential illegal immigrates is probably not required.

As far as the draft issue and limitatons on the Arafura class. The OPV will be fitted with very large RHIB which are capable of over horizon operations. For finding folk in shallow waters these would appear to fit the bill and is how the CCPB were actually intended to be operated. I doubt the Arafura draft is an issue.

So I agree that this is an econmic stimulus for Austal pending full scale production at CIVMEC. Austal have the Guardian class patrol boat with 6 of the 21 planned delivered to date. Appart from the two TTPB's that are in build is the only military builds the Australian facility have at the moment. A lot of their ferry production has moved to the Phillipines.

I do wonder how much support they will get when Civmec is at full pelt.

 

[SteveR]

That’s a figment I’m afraid. The OPVs have a draft of 3mtrs (Lurrsen OPV 80 Data sheet) which is pretty average.
At this draft it is possible to enter the lagoon at Ashmore (I’ve done it) and go just about anywhere on the northern coast.
Naturally the state of the tide has to be considered particularly on the NW coast where Spring variations exceed 11mtrs or 13mtrs around King Sound.

Thanks for the correction @ASSAIL - as already alluded above we should not trust everything we read in the media!

 

[spoz]

I think everyone reads in too much to the “broken” Armidale theory.
The oldest, HMAS Armidale is now 15 years old, these boats have a 15 year life projection, the same as the Fremantles and Attacks before them.
The majority of the ACPBs were delivered in 2006/7 so naturally they are ending their useful lives.

Precisely. I’m hearing that this in lieu of giving the older Armidales an upgrade to extend their lives.

 

[alexsa]

Precisely. I’m hearing that this in lieu of giving the older Armidales an upgrade to extend their lives.

Makes sense. Certainly as noted by Assail these vessels are close to the intended lifespan and some of the structural weak points on the ACPB (particularly in the way of the forward E/R bulkhead and intake structure) have been addressed in the CCPB design.

I also note the rendering of the TTPB does have a mounting for something bigger than a 50 cal. It will be interesting to see which version is used

AUSTAL EXPORT OPPORTUNITY SUPPORTED BY AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT FINANCING

COMPANY ANNOUNCEMENT 17 DECEMBER 2018 AUSTAL EXPORT OPPORTUNITY SUPPORTED BY AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT FINANCING AUSTAL (ASX: ASB) is pleased to announce that the Commonwealth of Australia, through the Defence Export Facility, has made available a loan facility, of up to AU$80 million, to support...

www.austal.com

PS: Defence connect has an article and it suggests the new CCPB will be an enhanced design picking up changes from the TTPB and maybe others

https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/key-enablers/6023-navy-to-get-new-patrol-boats-to-boost-capability

 

[Redlands18]

The current Navy CCPB are copies of the customs versions and only have 50cals. They are not commissioned either and are designated ADV's. This does not mean they are not classified as warships for the purpose of the application of the Navigation Act 2012.

As far as the draft issue and limitatons on the Arafura class. The OPV will be fitted with very large RHIB which are capable of over horizon operations. For finding folk in shallow waters these would appear to fit the bill and is how the CCPB were actually intended to be operated. I doubt the Arafura draft is an issue.

Throw in the Aviation capability that that the Arafura’s are capable of bringing and it’s a whole new ball game.

 

[Stampede]

I wonder why the additional 6 vessels are going to Navy and not Boarder force?
Not disappointed, just curious


Regards S

 

[buffy9]

I wonder why the additional 6 vessels are going to Navy and not Boarder force?
Not disappointed, just curious


Regards S

It is my understanding that the ABF is poorly funded, to the point where maritime patrols are not nearly as frequent as naval patrols. This and there may be a more difficult issue with recruiting/retention in the ABF than with the RAN, which enjoys better pay and is apparently more inviting.

Therefore there may be a larger pool of recruits/officers, likely with PB experience, who could manage the new vessels. This is especially true if ACPBs are retired early in favour of the CCPBs and the OPVs.

- - -

In a side note irt the PSS/JSS/tender enigma, the Strategist has put out a piece arguing for what appears to be a multirole supply tender for subs and ships. The author argues Manus Island as a forward base may not be reliable, whereas the need to support the future submarines far from ashore is likely a requirement that will be needed. He notes (like other sources) that later submarines may be nuclear.

The Royal Australian Navy needs a support ship, not a fixed base at Manus Island | The Strategist

Commentary on equipping the Australian Defence Force tends to focus on high-end combat capabilities such as frigates, fighter aircraft and armoured vehicles. Much less is written about the assets and infrastructure that support those capabilities. ...

www.aspistrategist.org.au

Perhaps this is a more long term issue, as WA is likely to receive the first six submarines to replace the Collins, but does a fleet support ship/tender really substitute for a large forward base - especially when a fleet support ship may have limited capacity and can't do everything?

The article seems dubious, but I'm not an expert.

 

[ngatimozart]

Submarine tenders were used until about the 1970s I think, by various navies. There is a geopolitical aspect to the Manus case which the author of the article either has forgotten, or conveniently neglected. One highly important consideration of the Australian US plan to lease Manus, is to prevent the Chinese from establishing a presence in it. It's one the most strategically important snchorages in the South Pacific region. If the PLAN & PLAAF were to become established there, they would be sitting astride the SLOC & ALOC between Australia - NZ and North America. They would also have naval and air influence over all of the Pacific Islands and Melanesia, something that would be highly detrimental to the Islands, Melanesia, Australia and NZ.