I remember reading about this a few months back, but its taken a while to find it.... Feb issue of DTR.
https://defencetechnologyreview.partica.online/defence-technology-review/dtr-feb-2020/flipbook/4/
Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates
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https://defencetechnologyreview.partica.online/defence-technology-review/dtr-feb-2020/flipbook/4/
The author has little knowledge of northern waters if he states that a 3mtr draft is “limiting”.
He conveniently forgets the anticipated role of the embarked RHIBs for extremely shallow estuarine or reef areas.
Just for clarification; pearling industry major vessels, farm depot ships, transport ships and pearl diving ships, almost exclusively single screw (deeper draft),operate in bays and near coast areas ranging from NE Arnhemland to Exmouth Gulf.
Their typical draft varies from 2.5mtrs/smallest to 5mtrs/largest and they would have a rough average draft of 3.5mtrs.
Their operational footprint is closer to the coast than the ABF PBs but apart from transits to and from Darwin and Fremantle they do no blue water operations.
Any suggestion that the Arafura class are limited by their draft is BS!
Rant over
What he actually says is that the "4m draught of the OPVs" is limting. And that the 3m draught of the Capes is hunky dorey. He was under the impression that it was 4m, and it seems this is incorrect.
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Would it matter, more work for Civmec means more work for WA. I wouldn't be surprised if when Civmec gets up and going they start poaching some of that Austal workforce.
Given the current global and local situation, I think we should be building as many locally build ships as we can muster.
East coast of Australia are the ones ear marked for the first 6 new attack submarines. WA will focus on Collins.
No, a submarine tender isn't going to replace a proper operating base. You can't rearm at sea, submarines have been lost being rearmed in port. You can't properly replenish a submarine at sea, particularly a modern diesel submarine. The Manus base also capitalises off a Australian paid for and design major hospital at Manus, and as ngatimozart points out, its about keeping China (or any one else out) out of Manus and Australia projecting power across the pacific island nations. Below, on and above the sea. The Airport on manus island can operate 737's like the P8 and Wedgetail. You aren't able to operate them off a submarine tender.
Manus island is a regionally strategic point. Like Singapore. You can't replace it with a boat. Its also a physical commitment to our regions that signals to other nations in the region that we are serious and committed. Nations like East Timor, Fiji, Saoma, Tonga, aren't capable of effectively pushing against a nation like China. With Manus we effectively make Australia the first nation they will come into contact with. Its also an ideal place to operate jointly with someone like Indonesia.
buffy9
Well-Known Member
Maybe the Stern Landing Vessels, if room can be found in the budget and a LCH becomes sought after. The OPVs, GCPB and new CCPB are probably going to keep them busy though.
Surely all six boats will need to be upgraded to remain capable if they are going to remain in service while the East Coast numbers are fleshed out? Or will they still be retired with the intro of the new subs and just cut numbers in WA for a decade or so?
Having the new subs in the East will probably help with recruiting, retention and early sustainment a ton, though.
I think it's also worth noting the base falls outside of the Second Island Chain, and can be loosely connected with other major bases further North - Guam and Okinawa in particular. For the US, it is suitable for larger platforms that may be at greater risk in the coming years when closer to China - bombers and tankers in particular.
I agree though, it's position is strategically important. The idea of disregarding the base in favour of a supply ship/tender just seemed somewhat absurd to me.
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
They are going to have to get there finger out pretty soon on building a Eastern Base then, to be ready by the early 30s. Haven’t even publicly started the project, especially if its a brand new site away from FBE.
Has a location been announced yet?
I was under the impression that Wollongong and Jervis Bay might have been mentioned in the past.
MB
There’s no supporting industry convenient to JB however Port Kembla could be a possible although I’m not familiar with future capacity issues.
The only other two possibilities could be FBE, possibly on the Eastern side (to hell with the self entitled Potts Point residents) or White Bay terminal.
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
Will it be definitely 6 Subs on the East Coast?
The reason i ask is, with a doubling of Sub numbers also comes a doubling of Crew numbers and that will req a doubling of Trainees in training*. I may be wrong on this and are happy to be corrected. Wouldn’t just about all Submariner Trg be done at Stirling? i would doubt that the RAN would want to double up on Trg Schools, so most of the Trg courses would still be done in the West. This will of course increase the number of Trainees that the Subs will need to fit in.
could this see a split more like 7-5 to cover Trg requirements or would the Navy just send Trainees East for Sea Time?
*These numbers are of course based on a similar size Crew to the Collins(58 i believe) as we don’t actually have a crew size yet for the Attack class.
The reason i ask is, with a doubling of Sub numbers also comes a doubling of Crew numbers and that will req a doubling of Trainees in training*. I may be wrong on this and are happy to be corrected. Wouldn’t just about all Submariner Trg be done at Stirling? i would doubt that the RAN would want to double up on Trg Schools, so most of the Trg courses would still be done in the West. This will of course increase the number of Trainees that the Subs will need to fit in.
could this see a split more like 7-5 to cover Trg requirements or would the Navy just send Trainees East for Sea Time?
*These numbers are of course based on a similar size Crew to the Collins(58 i believe) as we don’t actually have a crew size yet for the Attack class.
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
I also wonder if this might be a pointer towards the RAN using the Arafura’s in less traditional Patrol Vessel roles, such as an increase in visits to Pacific Islands, UUV and UAV Trg, HADR, even take over the MCM role down the track using UUVs.News that the RAN is to get an extra six patrol boats to augment the existing vessels and replace the two borrowed from Border Force.
As usual, the press, ABC in this case, is questioning why six new ones for RAN will cost more than eight for border force without a single clue about what is or is not included or how the quoted figure was derived.
oldsig
Government fast-tracks $350 million defence project
Defence Minister Linda Reynolds has announced shipbuilder Austal will construct six new Cape Class vessels for the Royal Australian Navy in her home state of Western Australia.www.abc.net.au
It appears we are going to end up with a 2 level Patrol Boat Fleet.
Takao
The Bunker Group
You'll probably find that there is funding for a base expansion, be it in the east or west. But which coast would be a political decision, not a military decision....
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Would it be strictly a political decision? I would think that the positioning of military/naval assets and support would also impact overall readiness and response.
I certainly can understand the political dimension as nn additional personnel posted to an area, plus their families would both put increased demands upon local resources and infrastructure (hospital, schools, sanitation, etc.) but also likely boost local economic activity by increasing demand and consumption of goods. Then there would also be the boost that any additional construction or infrastructure development would cause.
However, I would still think that the defence outputs resulting from a base expansion would weigh significantly into the calculation on what to do and where.
I think its highly likely now we are either looking at upgrading 5 or 6 Collins boats and operating them for the foreseeable future. This will help with training and retention when the new platforms come on line. The global situation isn't improving. Things like budget surpluses are no longer important.
A decision is still pending.
The sites they are talking about are likely ex-ports, or current bases so there is a fair bit if infrastructure there anyway. Its not going to be an overnight thing. The first sub will likely be doing a lot of stuff over in WA simply because that is where the current sub focus is. That said, rebuilding sub capacity over on the east coast is going to be fairly easy compared to the original move over to WA originally. HMAS Waterhen seems to be in the running. There was a fair bit of open speculation about this back in late 2019.
East Coast calling as potential for sub basing comes to the surface
As a Two Ocean Navy, there is a growing recognition that Australia’s future submarine fleet will need to have a permanent presence on the East Coast, with growing debate developing around the location and basing infrastructure needed to support the next-generation submarine fleet.
Waterhen would be easy to use because it was completely rebuilt late 90's. It could probably operate 4 subs as is. If we want more than 4 on the east coast then I think its likely another location would be chosen.
Manus is ideal for an multi-regional airport, as you can then create a powerful triangle of regular flights across the SCS, including places like Guam, Japan, Palau.
Manus is also likely one of the key places PNG will base their patrol boats, and is likely to be a key hub for Patrol boats from the region for training etc.
buffy9
Well-Known Member
I thought their patrol boats were already based out of Lombrunn? Iirc it was one of the early justifications/articles we had in regards to Manus Island, which surrounded upgrading facilities for the four new boats (before the news of a more major project).I think its highly likely now we are either looking at upgrading 5 or 6 Collins boats and operating them for the foreseeable future. This will help with training and retention when the new platforms come on line. The global situation isn't improving. Things like budget surpluses are no longer important.
A decision is still pending.
The sites they are talking about are likely ex-ports, or current bases so there is a fair bit if infrastructure there anyway. Its not going to be an overnight thing. The first sub will likely be doing a lot of stuff over in WA simply because that is where the current sub focus is. That said, rebuilding sub capacity over on the east coast is going to be fairly easy compared to the original move over to WA originally. HMAS Waterhen seems to be in the running. There was a fair bit of open speculation about this back in late 2019.
East Coast calling as potential for sub basing comes to the surface
As a Two Ocean Navy, there is a growing recognition that Australia’s future submarine fleet will need to have a permanent presence on the East Coast, with growing debate developing around the location and basing infrastructure needed to support the next-generation submarine fleet.www.defenceconnect.com.au
Waterhen would be easy to use because it was completely rebuilt late 90's. It could probably operate 4 subs as is. If we want more than 4 on the east coast then I think its likely another location would be chosen.
Manus is ideal for an multi-regional airport, as you can then create a powerful triangle of regular flights across the SCS, including places like Guam, Japan, Palau.
Manus is also likely one of the key places PNG will base their patrol boats, and is likely to be a key hub for Patrol boats from the region for training etc.
Takao
The Bunker Group
Mods - pls delete my blank reply
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When Cockatoo Island Dockyard was operational submarine basing options such as Waterhen and Platypus (Neutral Bay) we’re viable because all but the most basic maintenance could be done at CODOCK.I think its highly likely now we are either looking at upgrading 5 or 6 Collins boats and operating them for the foreseeable future. This will help with training and retention when the new platforms come on line. The global situation isn't improving. Things like budget surpluses are no longer important.
A decision is still pending.
The sites they are talking about are likely ex-ports, or current bases so there is a fair bit if infrastructure there anyway. Its not going to be an overnight thing. The first sub will likely be doing a lot of stuff over in WA simply because that is where the current sub focus is. That said, rebuilding sub capacity over on the east coast is going to be fairly easy compared to the original move over to WA originally. HMAS Waterhen seems to be in the running. There was a fair bit of open speculation about this back in late 2019.
East Coast calling as potential for sub basing comes to the surface
As a Two Ocean Navy, there is a growing recognition that Australia’s future submarine fleet will need to have a permanent presence on the East Coast, with growing debate developing around the location and basing infrastructure needed to support the next-generation submarine fleet.
Waterhen would be easy to use because it was completely rebuilt late 90's. It could probably operate 4 subs as is. If we want more than 4 on the east coast then I think its likely another location would be chosen.
Manus is ideal for an multi-regional airport, as you can then create a powerful triangle of regular flights across the SCS, including places like Guam, Japan, Palau.
Manus is also likely one of the key places PNG will base their patrol boats, and is likely to be a key hub for Patrol boats from the region for training etc.
Both the above bases are very limited in land available to build new infrastructure so I’d consider Waterhen a non starter.
Now that the Commonwealth has handed Cockatoo Island over to Heritage I certainly can’t see any revival there either.
That leaves either a new base in Sydney harbour which would have to be away from residential areas as much as possible or further development of FBE.
Hi everyone, longtime reader, Very infrequent poster.
Can someone explain why there is such a focus for locating FBE/subs in Sydney Harbour, is it just history?
None of our major allies have a major navel base in the center of a business CBD, and selling off a few 1000 Harbour views,
would pay for 50%+ of a new base
To someone that knows nothing, the southern side Fisherman's island in Brisbane has 100 times the expansion potential,
with standard gauge rail and airport 3ks away and a huge workforce, family friendly, gold coast, RAAF Amberley, etc, etc . . .
Or alternatively expanding the port at Townsville would save 2 day on 80% of all trips and have ships co-located with
the largest group of army units, I'm not pushing an agenda just trying to understand the reasons.
Can someone explain why there is such a focus for locating FBE/subs in Sydney Harbour, is it just history?
None of our major allies have a major navel base in the center of a business CBD, and selling off a few 1000 Harbour views,
would pay for 50%+ of a new base
To someone that knows nothing, the southern side Fisherman's island in Brisbane has 100 times the expansion potential,
with standard gauge rail and airport 3ks away and a huge workforce, family friendly, gold coast, RAAF Amberley, etc, etc . . .
Or alternatively expanding the port at Townsville would save 2 day on 80% of all trips and have ships co-located with
the largest group of army units, I'm not pushing an agenda just trying to understand the reasons.
I think we tend to look at previous bases and ask “are they still an option” as this would be the least expensive solution.
Other places to be considered are certainly Brisbane although the approaches in Moreton Bay are not ideal, Jervis Bay, Port Kembla and also Newcastle but each of these have their challenges.
The well accepted reasons for having a base on the East coast are firstly strategic, we have become a two ocean Navy and in order to train and deploy to a variety of areas it makes sense.
Secondly, the submarine force has difficulty in recruiting and retaining personnel as the majority of the population live on the eastern seaboard and the thought of spending the first 20 odd years of an underwater career away from family and friends is prohibitive and I think the same logic applies to your suggestion of Townsville.
Seagoing personnel spend most of their time away from home either on deployments or preparation for those deployments and families who are in bases away from their support group can be quickly disillusioned with service life.
Finally, it would be a plus if submarines were close to the East Australian Exercise Areas so that every ship undergoing training could have real submarine exercise time. When the Oberons were based in Sydney it was the norm to have Combined Anti Sub Exercises-CASEX-with real subs and real helos and real P3’s (except over the weekend when all the P3s went U/S only to come good on Monday).
I’m hoping we can get back to that level of ASW proficiency but you need live boats to get there.
The more complex free play exercises also benefits the s/m command teams although they must get bored to death with the clockwork mouse stuff.
My apologies, this reply ended up being a bit of a ramble!
I wonder if having a fleet of patrol bots right now might be in response to a possible flood of covid 19 refugees from our neighbour?
Remember that the Jakarta metro area has a population of close 33 million and no national healthcare system and no unemployment benefits. If Covid goes NYC , in Jakarta, then it will be a massive disaster and people will want to get out. Meanwhile here in the NT we had 27 cases and no new cases for 3 weeks....just a thought.
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