Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Stampede

Well-Known Member
One of the strangest things i have ever seen while following the ADF is the complete and absolute utter silence that has descended from the DOD/Navy on this sale. There is nothing in any official public ADF publication at all. Nothing on the Fleet Website for the disposal of these 2 Ships, nothing on the Navy Daily site. The only information coming out, is coming from Chile. For all intensive purposes it seems as though the Ships have ceased to exist as far as the RAN is concerned, in the public eye at least.
Over 100 Chilean Navy personal have been training at FBW and yet Navy Daily totally ignores it. 2 Ships are commissioned at FBW on 15 April and yet again it’s totally ignored.
Is the RAN opposed to this sale and been overruled by the Govt?
Yep very quiet indeed!

Would of preferred a frigate / destroyer force of 13 rather than 11 going through the 2020's.
So I guess time will tell if the sale of the FFG's proves a good decision.

Maybe we could buy a couple of foreign MEKO 200's for the revenue received for the FFG's ;)

Regards S
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Yep very quiet indeed!

Would of preferred a frigate / destroyer force of 13 rather than 11 going through the 2020's.
So I guess time will tell if the sale of the FFG's proves a good decision.

Maybe we could buy a couple of foreign MEKO 200's for the revenue received for the FFG's ;)

Regards S
The RAN needs to rebuild it's capability to crew additional ships first, especially at mid career levels in technical and warfare areas, officers and ORs. Decisions made ten plus years ago (as well as more recently) on personnel levels in specialities means there are not enough POs, CPOs, LCMDRs, CMDRs. The assumption was made the RAN could do with fewer people but it turns out new capabilities required more, they are no playing catch up.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The RAN needs to rebuild it's capability to crew additional ships first, especially at mid career levels in technical and warfare areas, officers and ORs. Decisions made ten plus years ago (as well as more recently) on personnel levels in specialities means there are not enough POs, CPOs, LCMDRs, CMDRs. The assumption was made the RAN could do with fewer people but it turns out new capabilities required more, they are no playing catch up.
My gut feel is that the ongoing pandemic will improve retention for those you list for quite some time.
This has been the case in previous economic downturns so there will be at least some benefit from the crisis.
 

SteveR

Active Member
One of the strangest things i have ever seen while following the ADF is the complete and absolute utter silence that has descended from the DOD/Navy on this sale. There is nothing in any official public ADF publication at all. Nothing on the Fleet Website for the disposal of these 2 Ships, nothing on the Navy Daily site. The only information coming out, is coming from Chile. For all intensive purposes it seems as though the Ships have ceased to exist as far as the RAN is concerned, in the public eye at least.
Over 100 Chilean Navy personal have been training at FBW and yet Navy Daily totally ignores it. 2 Ships are commissioned at FBW on 15 April and yet again it’s totally ignored.
Is the RAN opposed to this sale and been overruled by the Govt?
No - according to the ABC article it due to Chilean politics - the riots against austerity cuts there a few months ago would raise questions about any defence spending:
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
My gut feel is that the ongoing pandemic will improve retention for those you list for quite some time.
This has been the case in previous economic downturns so there will be at least some benefit from the crisis.
To a degree, yes, but some areas were so badly underestimated that even if minimal separation occurs it will take over a decade to recover. Some areas have serious bottle necks in training capacity, so even when talking lateral transfer of LT, LTCMD from related areas, they still can't get enough throughput to meet requirements.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
No - according to the ABC article it due to Chilean politics - the riots against austerity cuts there a few months ago would raise questions about any defence spending:
A smart move could be to come to an arrangement on some of our newer ships. Sell them the Hobart's before they come due for MLU and put the sale money with the upgrade money and subtract it from the cost of replacement ships.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
No - according to the ABC article it due to Chilean politics - the riots against austerity cuts there a few months ago would raise questions about any defence spending:
Thanks @SteveR that makes some sense.
Also the Phalanx was removed and retained, the Chileans would have 2 spare Goalkeeper systems that were on the 2 Heemskerks so may be able to retrofit them to these Ships.
 
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Redlands18

Well-Known Member
A smart move could be to come to an arrangement on some of our newer ships. Sell them the Hobart's before they come due for MLU and put the sale money with the upgrade money and subtract it from the cost of replacement ships.
Something based on the F-101 is probably what the Chilean Navy would love to get hold of, maybe a couple of Spanish F-101s might become available in the next few years.
 

spoz

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And, to be fair, it is nothing really to do with Navy; there’s a Defence disposals organisation which handled this. The RAN ceased to have anything but a sentimental interest in them when the last of the decommissioning party left. Even the training is arranged by a separate organisation, albeit they will have used RAN, or at least former RAN, facilities to do it.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I have just read this October 19 item in ADBR and found it a very useful and comprehensive description of the entire AWD programme from the very beginning to NUSHIP Sydney’s completion.
I understand there have been controversies about funding delays and Navantias influence/lack of detailed design drawings and some have already commented on these however the author seems to have downplayed those somewhat.
I know some of you have “skin in the game” and may have different views but for me, the interested casual observer, it describes a successful programme which could have better continued if decisions on SEA5000 were made earlier to avoid the time delay between the two build programmes. I only hope all that experience is retained although due to current circumstances there is a better chance than if the economy was booming.

https://adbr.com.au/an-enduring-legacy/
 

Pusser01

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks @SteveR that makes some sense.
Also the Phalanx was removed and retained, the Chileans would have 2 spare Goalkeeper systems that were on the 2 Heemskerks so may be able to retrofit them to these Ships.
Would the Goalkeeper be too heavy to go onto the FFG's, also doesn't it have to have quite a large deck penetration compared to Phalanx? It will be interesting to see if the Chileans also attempt to alter the size of the hangers to fit their Super Pumas. Cheers.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Thanks @SteveR that makes some sense.
Also the Phalanx was removed and retained, the Chileans would have 2 spare Goalkeeper systems that were on the 2 Heemskerks so may be able to retrofit them to these Ships.
I highly doubt that the Goalkeepers could be used in place of the Phalanx, or at least not without some fairly major modifications. The RAN's Phalanx CIWS are non-deck penetrating so they can be basically just plugged/unplugged and swapped between vessels, as long as the reinforced deck mounting/plate and connections are available. The 30 mm Goalkeeper is a much larger system which is deck penetrating so if a Chile were to attempt to fit it to the ex-RAN frigates, it would either have to be in place of the 76 mm gun, or a hole through a deck would need to be cut and underlying compartments and perhaps structure would need to be re-arranged to accommodate the Goalkeeper.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
I highly doubt that the Goalkeepers could be used in place of the Phalanx, or at least not without some fairly major modifications. The RAN's Phalanx CIWS are non-deck penetrating so they can be basically just plugged/unplugged and swapped between vessels, as long as the reinforced deck mounting/plate and connections are available. The 30 mm Goalkeeper is a much larger system which is deck penetrating so if a Chile were to attempt to fit it to the ex-RAN frigates, it would either have to be in place of the 76 mm gun, or a hole through a deck would need to be cut and underlying compartments and perhaps structure would need to be re-arranged to accommodate the Goalkeeper.
Yea good point so i would doubt that the Chilean Navy would go to that much trouble for ageing Warships, and it may not be doable anyway.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks @SteveR that makes some sense.
Also the Phalanx was removed and retained, the Chileans would have 2 spare Goalkeeper systems that were on the 2 Heemskerks so may be able to retrofit them to these Ships.
I suspect this would be difficult as the Goalkeeper is a big unit with deck penetration required. Not sure top weight would be an issues but real estate is likely to be.

.... and see that Tod has already picked this up
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
To a degree, yes, but some areas were so badly underestimated that even if minimal separation occurs it will take over a decade to recover. Some areas have serious bottle necks in training capacity, so even when talking lateral transfer of LT, LTCMD from related areas, they still can't get enough throughput to meet requirements.
A particular statistic that shocked the RAAF and Army people around the table was provided by a RAN Principle Warfare Officer - in recent history there were more PWOs above CAPT (RAN) than there were collectively at SBLT, LEUT, LCDR and CDRE. Good thing PWOs aren't essential to a warship!

Having said that, there is very clear direction from NHQ that building these trades back up is the number 1 priority for CN. Hopefully it translates to retention as well as recruitment though.
 
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spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Good thing PWOs aren't essential to a warship
I hope you are being sarcastic! For those not familiar with the beast, PWOs coordinate the fighting of the ship, and are the experts in sensor and weapon employment and usage. They are critical components of any surface combattant. And this from a Pusser who has no great love for the breed as a group, though some of my best friends are members of it.......:)
 
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Takao

The Bunker Group
I hope you are being sarcastic! For those not familiar with the beast, PWOs coordinate the fighting of the ship, and are the experts in sensor and weapon employment and usage. They are critical components of any surface combattant. And this from a Pusser who has no great love for the breed as a group, though some of my best friends are members of it.......:)
Very :)

I'll leave the PWO v Nav v Engineer v Loggie argument to someone else. Although the different types of PWO are....entertaining
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I hope you are being sarcastic! For those not familiar with the beast, PWOs coordinate the fighting of the ship, and are the experts in sensor and weapon employment and usage. They are critical components of any surface combattant. And this from a Pusser who has no great love for the breed as a group, though some of my best friends are members of it.......:)
There are those that are and those that wish ;) even very old ones!
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Very :)

I'll leave the PWO v Nav v Engineer v Loggie argument to someone else. Although the different types of PWO are....entertaining
Indeed and at last, those skilled in the dark art of ASW are regaining their place at the apex after years being subordinated by those practising the mundane and simple practice of above water warfare.
 

Flexson

Active Member
And, to be fair, it is nothing really to do with Navy; there’s a Defence disposals organisation which handled this. The RAN ceased to have anything but a sentimental interest in them when the last of the decommissioning party left. Even the training is arranged by a separate organisation, albeit they will have used RAN, or at least former RAN, facilities to do it.
Tell that to the FSU production planners who were trying to figure out which projects to pull man power from to support the transition, or to the FFG qualified sailors who had commenced new postings being asked if they would come back and help with training.
 
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