Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[MickB]

I think most would agree that the RAN is doing very well compared to many of the worlds Navy's.
Is it up to the demands of the future I guess time will tell.
Not wanting to aggravate too much the fantasy fleet button but I have always been puzzled as to the lack of a replacement of the LCH.
It was a vessel that served the RAN very well, so it's probably not a fantasy to consider its replacement with a like vessel / System.
Our new large amphibs are in a separate class and as impressive as they are total only three in number..........Excellent for certain tasks but not small scale independent logistic's.
Three of any class of vessel has limitations of supply.We have experienced this already with Choules and the Canberra class. The unexpected does happen.
Their LCM1E are employed as these ships connectors so where never intended to be an LCH replacement. Short distant stuff that's it, and no accommodation for crew.Not a criticism it's their design.
So 3 to 4 larger LCH should not be a fantasy but for it's neglect in the DWP.
Relatively inexpensive vessels with small crews.
Small enough to beach and extract plus the ability to sail around the coast and conduct voyages throughout our regional island neighbours.
Something in the 60 to 80m size should do the job.

Military,HADR and show the flag stuff.
Strikes me as money well spent.

Regards S

I agree with the need for a LCH replacement and that a 60 to 80m vessel would provide enough lift for the majority of tasks.
But a quick look at the Daimen website shows a vast difference in range between their LST80 and LST120, 2500nm against 8000nm.
I assume it would be the same with similar designs.
Given the old mantra, steel is cheap and air is free, I belive that in that Australian context, a bigger longer ranged vessel would be a better fit.

 

[pussertas]

OPV Mock Up

With 11 Opv's to be built (the first 2 in SA) it would seem to me a sensible idea to build a wooden full size mock up of these vessels.

Initially based at Osbourne to assist with the layout of the first 2 vessels then transported to Henderson in WA for the remaining 9.

The final location to be FND so as to introduce new matlot's to the layout and workings of the OPV.

Any Mock Up would need to be built in sections to enable transport (HMAS Choules?) to WA & then finally to FND.

 

[Massive]

LST80 and LST120, 2500nm against 8000nm.
I assume it would be the same with similar designs.

Both very large ships - the LST 80 looks as if it would lift a company sized battlegroup on its own...

Does anyone have any insight into why the LCH were decommissioned without replacement? Still feels strange to have not kept say 3 for contingencies.

Regards,

Massive

 

[StingrayOZ]

SEA 5000 decision delayed due to industry wrangling – report

Delayed due to dealing.

The late trip to the uk hints there is more going on than austal. Wouldnt be suprised if the uk is putting together a fair amount of pressure.

There is more than just ships, brexit, us relations with eu, have made things more complicated.

 

[oldsig127]

SEA 5000 decision delayed due to industry wrangling – report

Delayed due to dealing.

The late trip to the uk hints there is more going on than austal. Wouldnt be suprised if the uk is putting together a fair amount of pressure.

There is more than just ships, brexit, us relations with eu, have made things more complicated.

Based on a report by the ABC two days ago. Excuse me while I wait for a reputable source of Defence reporting.

oldsig

 

[hauritz]

SEA 5000 decision delayed due to industry wrangling – report

Delayed due to dealing.

The late trip to the uk hints there is more going on than austal. Wouldnt be suprised if the uk is putting together a fair amount of pressure.

There is more than just ships, brexit, us relations with eu, have made things more complicated.

If this report that the National Security Committee has already settled on theType 26 is accurate then it is pretty much a done deal. It just seems to me like too many commentators are saying pretty much the same thing.

 

[John Fedup]

As others have commented, remember the submarine decision. Nothing is known until the government officially announces its decision.

 

[hauritz]

As others have commented, remember the submarine decision. Nothing is known until the government officially announces its decision.

Yeah ... we won't know for sure until it is announced. Without knowing the source of these rumours they are at this stage just speculation.

Hopefully, they will announce the winner sooner rather than later.

 

[John Fedup]

At least Australian interested parties are seeing glimmers of light at the end of the tunnel, meanwhile in Canada, mega black hole.

 

[Meriv90]

Just in case the sole purpose of this post is to tease you guys

26th April 2016 SEA1000 is awarded, 27th April 2016 you have this:

And to be honest the french are really classy this looks amazing. I wish Italian population allowed such martial display.

Guess who just stopped here in Rome few days after the supposed dates of the announcement?

Just in case his other stops are:

Mr Cosgrove will visit Belgium tomorrow before going to France, Spain and Portugal with a delegation of Australian business leaders.

Mr Cosgrove, who is on a European Tour to coincide with a memorial service for the Battle of Hamel in France on July 4, also met with Vatican State Secretary Pietro Parolin to discuss a variety of topics.

Sorry mods for the joking and conspiracy quality post.

p.s. Our defence minister wasnt there.

 

[hauritz]

OPV Mock Up

With 11 Opv's to be built (the first 2 in SA) it would seem to me a sensible idea to build a wooden full size mock up of these vessels.

Initially based at Osbourne to assist with the layout of the first 2 vessels then transported to Henderson in WA for the remaining 9.

The final location to be FND so as to introduce new matlot's to the layout and workings of the OPV.

Any Mock Up would need to be built in sections to enable transport (HMAS Choules?) to WA & then finally to FND.

This link doesn't seem to be working ... I wouldn't mind seeing the mockup.

This is fair.

My non-wish-list sensible view still sees another tanker being required.

And I would still change the OPV to a more future proof flexible option.

Regards,

Massive

Actually my wish list would involve going back in time and retroactively selecting the baby burke instead of the Hobart.

Imagine how much different things would have turned out had we built that ship. It would have already operated two helicopters and had virtually unlimited growth margins. There would have been no need for a SEA 5000 competition ... we could have just kept building them indefinitely.

 

[alexsa]

This link doesn't seem to be working ... I wouldn't mind seeing the mockup.

Actually my wish list would involve going back in time and retroactively selecting the baby burke instead of the Hobart.

Imagine how much different things would have turned out had we built that ship. It would have already operated two helicopters and had virtually unlimited growth margins. There would have been no need for a SEA 5000 competition ... we could have just kept building them indefinitely.

Except they are not pure ASW ships. Noting the ongoing discussion on Sea5000 focused on the ASW capability ..... particularly in relation to the electric drive and noise minimisation .... the baby Burke may not have fit the RFT. Personally if we were going to use the US option for the DDG we should have just built the Burke.

But this is all water under the bridge. Now we wait and ..... as I have said in the past .... I am not putting money on this one.

 

[Meriv90]

Fincantieri keeps signing deals


Titomic signs agreement with Fincantieri Australia - Defence Connect

Jeff Lang, Titomic chief technical officer, said, "We are pleased to kick off this first project with Fincantieri as part of our MoU. We will be producing test samples at our new state-of-the-art facility in Melbourne in order to conduct the stringent tests required. This is the first step toward manufacturing large marine parts on our metal 3D printers of limitless scale."

"The activities between Fincantieri and Titomic evaluate the benefits of applying the proprietary Titomic Kinetic Fusion technology to manufacture mechanical components for naval and merchant ships. With over 100 ships on order around the world, Fincantieri has the size and strength to bring new technology to market," said Dario Deste, Fincantieri Australia chairman.

Is there any other navy that uses 3d printing already?

 

[StingrayOZ]

USN I think had powdered metal printers on carriers as an experiment.

They definately have plastic ones.
Navy Warship Is Taking 3D Printer To Sea; Don’t Expect A Revolution

 

[aussienscale]

SEA 5000 decision delayed due to industry wrangling – report

Delayed due to dealing.

The late trip to the uk hints there is more going on than austal. Wouldnt be suprised if the uk is putting together a fair amount of pressure.

There is more than just ships, brexit, us relations with eu, have made things more complicated.

Another quality piece from Andrew, of course he and the ABC know who the NSC and Defence have selected as the winner and have leaked it !!

 

[swerve]

I agree with the need for a LCH replacement and that a 60 to 80m vessel would provide enough lift for the majority of tasks.
But a quick look at the Daimen website shows a vast difference in range between their LST80 and LST120, 2500nm against 8000nm.
I assume it would be the same with similar designs.
Given the old mantra, steel is cheap and air is free, I belive that in that Australian context, a bigger longer ranged vessel would be a better fit.

I think Damen's willing to customise its designs, so, for example, a longer-range LST80 (presumably trading off range against cargo capacity) should be possible.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Curious though, I don't think we built much on the Wegetail it was mostly a boeing affair?
I would have thought the UK has already purchase 24 Bushmasters.

These sound silly. But then again I haven't really seen what possibly the UK could promise that would be an important factor.

A much better commitment would be we buy Type 26, UK agrees to build 9 ships to the same spec as Australia with the same systems. 48 strike, AEGIS, CEAFAR. Then we go over to Canada together and hit them up. Between us that is 18 ships, order 14 more. That would get us combined to 32 ships. Which is enough upgrades, development and crewing and training, and logistics become very significant. Australian industry involvement would be very large.

If want to create a viable geopolitical order alternative based around CAAUUK. That would be a significant first step. After you sign the deal, you go back and call them 8,000t destroyers. Hit Canada up for some new subs (4 x Sea1000). Throw together some CAAUUK + friends joint ops. If in the vacuum of US leadership, it would give each of the 3 much more diplomatic credibility. Operational costs decrease, there would be a world wide logistics system in place.

 

[Todjaeger]

Curious though, I don't think we built much on the Wegetail it was mostly a boeing affair?
I would have thought the UK has already purchase 24 Bushmasters.

These sound silly. But then again I haven't really seen what possibly the UK could promise that would be an important factor.

A much better commitment would be we buy Type 26, UK agrees to build 9 ships to the same spec as Australia with the same systems. 48 strike, AEGIS, CEAFAR. Then we go over to Canada together and hit them up. Between us that is 18 ships, order 14 more. That would get us combined to 32 ships. Which is enough upgrades, development and crewing and training, and logistics become very significant. Australian industry involvement would be very large.

If want to create a viable geopolitical order alternative based around CAAUUK. That would be a significant first step. After you sign the deal, you go back and call them 8,000t destroyers. Hit Canada up for some new subs (4 x Sea1000). Throw together some CAAUUK + friends joint ops. If in the vacuum of US leadership, it would give each of the 3 much more diplomatic credibility. Operational costs decrease, there would be a world wide logistics system in place.

IIRC Australia owns some of the IP which features in the Wedgetail and when Turkey ordered their Peace Eagle AEW&C from Boeing, a sum for the IP was paid to Australia. Not sure if this was also the case with the S. Korean order or not.

This suggests to me that there would be an economic benefit to Australia for additional orders of the Wedgetail derivatives, but that there would be little or not real export activity apart from any Australia would normally participate in producing parts for Boeing aircraft.

 

[Redlands18]

IIRC Australia owns some of the IP which features in the Wedgetail and when Turkey ordered their Peace Eagle AEW&C from Boeing, a sum for the IP was paid to Australia. Not sure if this was also the case with the S. Korean order or not.

This suggests to me that there would be an economic benefit to Australia for additional orders of the Wedgetail derivatives, but that there would be little or not real export activity apart from any Australia would normally participate in producing parts for Boeing aircraft.

I was Thinking a deal for CEAFAR Radars for the Type 31 might have been the way to go.

 

[oldsig127]

Wouldnt be suprised if the uk is putting together a fair amount of pressure.

There is more than just ships, brexit, us relations with eu, have made things more complicated.

I've been thinking about this for some days since you posted and others have commented.

Exactly *what* pressure can the UK bring to bear? The ships are to be built here - any suggestion that they'd throw us a bone of a bit more build work should be met with cynicism given that they need all the work they can get back home.

Buy Oz? CEAFAR for example? At what cost to BAE?

And Brexit? Brexit makes them petitioners to *us* not vice versa because it's the UK which has - or will - cut itself adrift from its major trading partners and is looking for favours. Australia has a long enough memory to know how we were treated when the UK went *in* to the EC so they won't be entitled to a sympathy vote. Sure, let them trade. Freely, like everyone else in the WTO should. Relations to the EU? Huh? Surely their influence there is a net negative post Brexit.

It doesn't wash. This is not Australia in 1939. IMO any attempt at "pressure" should be seen as a lack of faith in their technical and business case. More complicated, yes. More favourable, hardly.

oldsig