Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[StevoJH]

With regards to calibre on the autocannon, do the 25mm or 30mm rounds have Proximity fused rounds available?

If not, better to go for a 40mm round which will have longer range and better lethality against small air targets.

 

[hauritz]

So following the US tradition … Albanese, Morrison, Turnbull, Abbot, Rudd, Gillard, Howard Keating, Hawke Fraser Whitlam … enough for a fleet of 11….. … realistically a roll call of people who did the bare minimum fur the ADF .

I would reserve Keating and Turnbull for the SSNs because I know it would really piss them off.

 

[downunderblue]

I would reserve Keating and Turnbull for the SSNs because I know it would really piss them off.

Maybe not. Whilst they may disagree with their purchase, to see something as impressive as they are named in 'their' honor will satsify something vastly more important to either, that being ego and legacy, which is a good way to keep them quiet(er) and in context a brilliant idea IMO.

 

[SammyC]

Maybe not. Whilst they may disagree with their purchase, to see something as impressive as they are named in 'their' honor will satsify something vastly more important to either, that being ego and legacy, which is a good way to keep them quiet(er) and in context a brilliant idea IMO.

I think we should have a rule that says politicians may only have their name attached to patrol boats.

That way they can have some experience with hard work without glory, with no cameras in sight.

 

[SammyC]

More seriously on naming, Australia has a history of avoiding using people, for good reason. I think (tell me if I'm wrong) we only ever deviated from this for the Collins submarines.

I believe that ship name choices are part of our fundamental military licence to operate. We must always be seen to act and protect the community, not individuals.

Naming after people is hazardous, as it can become polarising, either views that somebody else was more deserving, it's too bias to a particular group, or that person is associated with a problematic view or action.

Politicians are a terrible choice, as regardless of who it is, part of the community will always have an automatic aversion to the name and it instantly becomes divisive.

Using places is far less volatile, and it links broad communities, rather than individuals, to the defence force. Choosing a city, river, mountain, harbour or other notable geographic feature is rarely ever controversial.

It might be boring, but that is not the requirement.

 

[K.I.]

If you are talking about the Mk 15 Phalanx, that is 20 mm using the M61 Vulcan (same gun on many modern US fighters) so a bit of a difference from a 30 mm gun. Also the Bushmaster family of guns have a max ROF of something like 200 rds/min IIRC, so their suitability against a range of aerial threats is somewhat limited to the low and slow type.



RIM-116 is the Rolling Airframe Missile aka RAM, with SeaRAM being an 11-missile self-contained CIWS based off the SeaPhalanx CIWS. AFAIK the max range of a RAM is ~9 km vs. around 5 km max effective range for the 35 mm Millennium Gun CIWS. So a RAM-based system has a longer potential 'reach' OTOH it could easily have less available shots. As mentioned the SeaRAM launcher only has 11 missiles, whilst the 'normal' RAM launcher can hold 21 missiles.

I question the value of the Phalanx these days with directed energy stations with unlimited 'ammo' now in production. Larger calibre cannons with dual feeds (air burst, AP, etc) also provide more options at a far greater range as well as their own built in surveillance capabilities.
RAN should be looking at other options to the Typhoon mount too, as there's plenty of better systems out there including home grown ones.
SeaRAM provides a similar number of engagements to the Millennium but they would obviously work better together in the layered approach.

 

[K.I.]

I would agree the upgraded Mogami is a more capable vessel than the original Independent Analysis into the Navy's Surface Combatant Fleet envisioned. That is a good outcome.

The over the horizon aspect to the strike capability aligns with the standard type 12 missile that Japan fields on the classic Mogami. It has a range in the 300km plus zone for both maritime and land targets, which is thoroughly over the horizon.

I personally think the jury is still out on the NSM option. Japan has previously stated a consideration of integrating the NSM into the base Mogami platform. I'm unsure if that was to entice Australia, or for a genuine strategy of building in future flexibility. Either way, if it becomes part of their base platform, then it should also be available to us.

If we don't fit NSM to the GPFs, it potentially makes our NSM factory somewhat of an orphan, with a very limited use. This could prove to be problematic for the broad integrated strategy.

The Australian government has been aluding to ESSM by stating a capacity for 128 missiles in multiple media releases. That can only be an ESSM package.

A Mogami, with an ESSM and SM2 fitout across a 32 cell VLS would provide very capable escort defence.

Japan will likely to order the NSM for their F-35s (JSM has already been ordered).
Initial announcement Conroy stated the frigates would have the full suite of strike length missiles integrated (SM 2/6, tomahawk), makes sense considering both navies have them as well as the NSM in the future.

 

[devo99]

Interesting, though not necessarily definitive, no mention of mine warfare capabilities

As I understand it mine warfare capability was not a factor in the selection and there's no plan yet to make use of that capability. Although it's a useful option in the future.

Given that Japan has not yet commissioned a Mogami with a working VLS, I'm not sure there is any guidance on what missiles it will be configured for (let me know if I have missed something on this). I think the first VLS has only just been installed on Niyodo, but no tests to demonstrate what it fires.

Japan uses the ESSM on all its other VLS capable ships (albeit via an Aegis combat system), so one would think they will continue that with the Mogamis.

Japanese articles suggest that the intention for the original Mogami class is to rely on the SeaRAM for air defence and all 16 VLS now for Type 07 VLA. Although there was originally consideration for the use of their new Type 23 SAM that's now planned for only the new FFMs

 

[devo99]

More seriously on naming, Australia has a history of avoiding using people, for good reason. I think (tell me if I'm wrong) we only ever deviated from this for the Collins submarines.

I believe that ship name choices are part of our fundamental military licence to operate. We must always be seen to act and protect the community, not individuals.

Naming after people is hazardous, as it can become polarising, either views that somebody else was more deserving, it's too bias to a particular group, or that person is associated with a problematic view or action.

Politicians are a terrible choice, as regardless of who it is, part of the community will always have an automatic aversion to the name and it instantly becomes divisive.

Using places is far less volatile, and it links broad communities, rather than individuals, to the defence force. Choosing a city, river, mountain, harbour or other notable geographic feature is rarely ever controversial.

It might be boring, but that is not the requirement.

Aside from the Collins class there is also HMAS Choules, Creswell, Cook, Banks, Bass, Flinders, Moresby and going further back there's colonial vessels such as HMVS Victoria, Albert, Lonsdale, Childers and Countess of Hopetoun. Beyond that there's the submarine rescue ships MV Besant and Stoker each named after Australia's WW1 submarine captains and of course in a similar vein the Tribal class destroyers Warramunga and Arunta are named after groups of people. The first three Hunters will add to this list among other examples I didn't mention but can if need be.

I'd never suggest the use of politicians as ship namesakes to be clear. It would entirely defeat the point of using a person's name as they should be a worthy role model for the ship's company. I think they succeeded in that way for the Collins class and Creswell although the Hunter class names are much more questionable and really ought to be relegated to survey vessels only if they must be used at all.

I agree on the point of using city and town names and how it links with communities although there is less such value in rivers and mountains. I think so long as the right names are chosen like on the Collins class, and I strongly believe there are enough out there, there would be more gained by bringing forward the inspirational actions of previous sailors and officers through their names than any minor controversy that would result among the small portion of the public who would care enough to do a full analysis of their personal flaws or ideology, of which there shouldn't be any major to begin with if they're being considered. I'm sure many would disagree with me and I'd be happy to hear their response to this.

 

[Armchair]

More seriously on naming, Australia has a history of avoiding using people, for good reason. I think (tell me if I'm wrong) we only ever deviated from this for the Collins submarines.

I believe that ship name choices are part of our fundamental military licence to operate. We must always be seen to act and protect the community, not individuals.

Naming after people is hazardous, as it can become polarising, either views that somebody else was more deserving, it's too bias to a particular group, or that person is associated with a problematic view or action.

Politicians are a terrible choice, as regardless of who it is, part of the community will always have an automatic aversion to the name and it instantly becomes divisive.

Using places is far less volatile, and it links broad communities, rather than individuals, to the defence force. Choosing a city, river, mountain, harbour or other notable geographic feature is rarely ever controversial.

It might be boring, but that is not the requirement.

i agree with the post but apart from Choules the Hunter class (at least the first three) are also named after people (With some of the associated problems mentioned).

 

[iambuzzard]

I would reserve Keating and Turnbull for the SSNs because I know it would really piss them off.

That's GOLD!!!!

 

[SammyC]

i agree with the post but apart from Choules the Hunter class (at least the first three) are also named after people (With some of the associated problems mentioned).

Valid point, I forgot those. I'm going to pretend that Hunter is named after the Hunter Valley, Flinders after Flinders Island, and Tasman after that strange little island off Victoria.

I am certain this will trigger someone to respond.

 

[SammyC]

As I understand it mine warfare capability was not a factor in the selection and there's no plan yet to make use of that capability. Although it's a useful option in the future.


Japanese articles suggest that the intention for the original Mogami class is to rely on the SeaRAM for air defence and all 16 VLS now for Type 07 VLA. Although there was originally consideration for the use of their new Type 23 SAM that's now planned for only the new FFMs

I think I saw an article that said that. It surprised me.

A sole SeaRAM might be fine for peacetime, however its at best a final self defence system, and a bit of a hail mary in a hot situation. The USN litoral combat ships came under fire (metaphorically) for having this same self defence strategy.

I would have thought a partial loadout with VLA would be expected on the classic Mogamis, (say 6-8 units), but 16 seems overkill.

On that point I'm wondering if we will pick up the VLA with our Mogamis. It will add to the ever increasing number of different torpedoes we will have in our fleet.

 

[SammyC]

Aside from the Collins class there is also HMAS Choules, Creswell, Cook, Banks, Bass, Flinders, Moresby and going further back there's colonial vessels such as HMVS Victoria, Albert, Lonsdale, Childers and Countess of Hopetoun. Beyond that there's the submarine rescue ships MV Besant and Stoker each named after Australia's WW1 submarine captains and of course in a similar vein the Tribal class destroyers Warramunga and Arunta are named after groups of people. The first three Hunters will add to this list among other examples I didn't mention but can if need be.

I'd never suggest the use of politicians as ship namesakes to be clear. It would entirely defeat the point of using a person's name as they should be a worthy role model for the ship's company. I think they succeeded in that way for the Collins class and Creswell although the Hunter class names are much more questionable and really ought to be relegated to survey vessels only if they must be used at all.

I agree on the point of using city and town names and how it links with communities although there is less such value in rivers and mountains. I think so long as the right names are chosen like on the Collins class, and I strongly believe there are enough out there, there would be more gained by bringing forward the inspirational actions of previous sailors and officers through their names than any minor controversy that would result among the small portion of the public who would care enough to do a full analysis of their personal flaws or ideology, of which there shouldn't be any major to begin with if they're being considered. I'm sure many would disagree with me and I'd be happy to hear their response to this.

OK OK, I surrender. There are lots of Australian ships named after people.

For the record I had to go and research Countess of Hopetoun.

 

[76mmGuns]

With regards to calibre on the autocannon, do the 25mm or 30mm rounds have Proximity fused rounds available?

If not, better to go for a 40mm round which will have longer range and better lethality against small air targets.

Given the 40mm was dropped from the Arafura class for various reasons I doubt anyone would consider it, given the troubles it would cause to modify the ship and struggle with making foreign hardware and software compatible with what we use. RAN has specifically made almost no changes to the mogami .

 

[Reptilia]

End of year MFU, Best case…

2025> 3 HOBARTS, 7 ANZACS (10)
2026> 3 HOBARTS, 6 ANZACS (9)
2027> 3 HOBARTS, 6 ANZACS (9)
2028> 3 HOBARTS, 6 ANZACS (9)
2029> 3 HOBARTS, 6 ANZACS (9)
2030> 3 HOBARTS, 5 ANZACS, 1 GPF (9)
2031> 3 HOBARTS, 5 ANZACS, 1 GPF (9)
2032> 3 HOBARTS, 4 ANZACS, 2 GPF (9)
2033> 3 HOBARTS, 4 ANZACS, 2 GPF (9)
2034> 3 HOBARTS, 3 ANZACS, 3 GPF, 1 HUNTER (10)
2035> 3 HOBARTS, 3 ANZACS, 3 GPF, 1 HUNTER (10)
2036> 3 HOBARTS, 2 ANZACS, 4 GPF, 2 HUNTERS (11)
2037> 3 HOBARTS, 2 ANZACS, 4 GPF, 2 HUNTERS (11)
2038> 3 HOBARTS, 5 GPF, 3 HUNTERS (11)
2039> 3 HOBARTS, 5 GPF, 3 HUNTERS (11)
2040> 3 HOBARTS, 6 GPF, 4 HUNTERS (13)
2041> 3 HOBARTS, 6 GPF, 4 HUNTERS (13)
2042> 3 HOBARTS, 7 GPF, 5 HUNTERS (15)
2043> 3 HOBARTS, 7 GPF, 6 HUNTERS (16)
2044> 3 HOBARTS, 8 GPF, 6 HUNTERS, 1 AWD (18)
2045> 3 HOBARTS, 8 GPF, 6 HUNTERS, 1 AWD (18)
2046> 3 HOBARTS, 9 GPF, 6 HUNTERS, 2 AWD (20)
2047> 3 HOBARTS, 9 GPF, 6 HUNTERS, 2 AWD (20)
2048> 2 HOBARTS, 10 GPF, 6 HUNTERS, 3 AWD (21)
2049> 2 HOBARTS, 10 GPF, 6 HUNTERS, 3 AWD (21)
2050> 1 HOBART, 11 GPF, 6 HUNTERS, 4 AWD (22*)
2051> 1 HOBART, 11 GPF, 6 HUNTERS, 4 AWD* (22*)
2052> 11 GPF, 6 HUNTERS, 5 AWD* (22*)
2053> 11 GPF, 6 HUNTERS, 5 AWD* (22*)
2054> 11 GPF, 6 HUNTERS, 6 AWD* (23*)
2055> 11 GPF, 6 HUNTERS, 6 AWD (23*)


-Anzacs and Hobarts may be given 30 years or more -parts taken from decommissioned ships to keep the fleet dropping below 9 and before destroyer replacement.
-Ships decommissioned at 28 years would result in only a 6 ship fleet at the end of 2033(3 Hobart, 1 Anzac, 2 GPF).
-Marles has stated the Upgraded Mogamis will be built on a 2 year drumbeat at Henderson.
-Henderson precinct consolidation/upgrade - 5 years from design(2026) = Around 2031(hopefully earlier) before cut steel on Australian built GPF.
-List does not include LOSVs.
-*likely more than 3 Destroyers but not planned as yet.

 

[iambuzzard]

Valid point, I forgot those. I'm going to pretend that Hunter is named after the Hunter Valley, Flinders after Flinders Island, and Tasman after that strange little island off Victoria.

I am certain this will trigger someone to respond.

Sammy, you are a s*** stirrer!

 

[StingrayOZ]

I personally think the jury is still out on the NSM option. Japan has previously stated a consideration of integrating the NSM into the base Mogami platform. I'm unsure if that was to entice Australia, or for a genuine strategy of building in future flexibility. Either way, if it becomes part of their base platform, then it should also be available to us.

I don't think NSM is a difficult fit. Physically or system wise. Or Politically. I think they will come with Japanese munitions. From there, it will be a conversation about is NSM or Type 17 best fit and how much do we want to spend and how much do we want to pay to swap over. Type 17 is capable and similar size to NSM. It may be in everyone's interest for Mogami's to be able to fire both types. NSM may be more stealthy, more flexible, Type 17 more range, and more traditional. It may be useful to have a mixed load out. Less reliant on one supply chain, and also different capabilities.

Japan uses the ESSM on all its other VLS capable ships (albeit via an Aegis combat system), so one would think they will continue that with the Mogamis. They also use the SM series, so it's not unreasonable to think it should also come with SM2 connectivity. There is a lot of American technology in the Mogami combat system, so one thinks this this should not be a difficult path. I assume they have been developing this integration for a while now.

The Australian government has been aluding to ESSM by stating a capacity for 128 missiles in multiple media releases. That can only be an ESSM package.

A Mogami, with an ESSM and SM2 fitout across a 32 cell VLS would provide very capable escort defence.

Japanese sites indicate Type 07 ASROC style munitions may be the main loadout for japanese ships. Which may explain the seaRAM. I'm not sure that's true, some sites indicate there is no plans for SM fitment.

もがみ型護衛艦のVLS、7番艦「によど」から就役時に設置（高橋浩祐） - エキスパート - Yahoo!ニュース

これまで「後日装備」となってきた海上自衛隊のもがみ型護衛艦（FFM）搭載の垂直ミサイル発射システム（VLS）が、7番艦「によど」以降から就役時に装備されることが分かった。海上幕僚監部広報室が筆者の取材

news.yahoo.co.jp

 

[Stampede]

Given the 40mm was dropped from the Arafura class for various reasons I doubt anyone would consider it, given the troubles it would cause to modify the ship and struggle with making foreign hardware and software compatible with what we use. RAN has specifically made almost no changes to the mogami .

Trust this is not a silly question, but why is it seemingly problematic integrating a naval gun to a combat system.
A lot of noise was made of the proposed 40mm on the Arafura Class been a challenge!!!!

I would imagine most of the physicality of a modern naval mount is self contained but for power and some plumbing.
Given any modern naval gun 25mm and above will be integrated to a combat system, why is this not accounted for in the design interface so that all components can talk to each other.
For those that don’t
Why is is seemly so difficult to make work!

At the end of the day, a gun just turns, elevates and goes bang.
Surely it’s not so sophisticated a challenge to this make work

Appreciate any info


Regards S

 

[Takao]

Valid point, I forgot those. I'm going to pretend that Hunter is named after the Hunter Valley, Flinders after Flinders Island, and Tasman after that strange little island off Victoria.

I am certain this will trigger someone to respond.

It has to be - Abel Tasman was a shit of a human being who murdered at least one crew member, he triggered a violent confrontation with our NZ allies and he was a Dutch land owner in the Dutch East Indies - with all the slavery issues that brings with it (from a colonising power that wasn't the nicest to it's native residents...)

There is no way we could name a modern combatant after that individual, surely?

And before I hear anything about woke modern views - the murder verdict is from a 1649 Dutch court...