Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

rossfrb_1

Member
http://www.adbr.com.au/data/ADBR-E_Prev.htm

ADBR have got two relevant articles available for download in pdf format

Edition C/2
AIR 6000: Setting the facts straight on the NACC
Part II: What is really the best new air combat bridging capability option for Australia?

Which examines the selection of the F-18F B2 super hornet as a gap-filler.

&

Edition C/1
AIR 6000: Setting the facts straight on the NACC
Part I: Will the F-22A 'Raptor' ever be available for export to Australia?

Which examines the likelihood of the F-22A now or ever being exported.

Not knowing the politics, if any, that ADBR play, I will say that
both articles come out supporting the government at a very convenient time.
They take some swipes at both ADA & APA.
AD would probably even crack a smile at the specific allegation about APA's financial interest in any evolved F-111 concept.

I found them interesting reading, just don't know if it's all 'gospel':confused:

rb
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
http://www.adbr.com.au/data/ADBR-E_Prev.htm

ADBR have got two relevant articles available for download in pdf format

Edition C/2
AIR 6000: Setting the facts straight on the NACC
Part II: What is really the best new air combat bridging capability option for Australia?

Which examines the selection of the F-18F B2 super hornet as a gap-filler.

&

Edition C/1
AIR 6000: Setting the facts straight on the NACC
Part I: Will the F-22A 'Raptor' ever be available for export to Australia?

Which examines the likelihood of the F-22A now or ever being exported.

Not knowing the politics, if any, that ADBR play, I will say that
both articles come out supporting the government at a very convenient time.
They take some swipes at both ADA & APA.
AD would probably even crack a smile at the specific allegation about APA's financial interest in any evolved F-111 concept.

I found them interesting reading, just don't know if it's all 'gospel':confused:

rb
I've become an ADBR fan. Like every publication I guess the articles reflect the views of the writers. But they seem to me to be well researched and reasonably balanced, unlike much of what appears in the general press.

Tas
 

AGRA

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Both of those ADBR-E articles were written by Abraham S. Gubler, ex ADBR Features Editor (ex = why there is no part 3) and ex Defence Today associate editor. They are very popular amongst the Department of Defence.
 

battlensign

New Member
Both of those ADBR-E articles were written by Abraham S. Gubler, ex ADBR Features Editor (ex = why there is no part 3) and ex Defence Today associate editor. They are very popular amongst the Department of Defence.
Do I sense a juicy story here.......care to elaborate?:)

Brett.
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
ADBR certainly has to be the best military magazine in Australia from an industry and political point of view.

Both of the ADBR-E publications were superb, especially the first one which put all the F-22 stuff including the Obey amendment into context.

Unfortunately Abe is no longer with ADBR and has gone out freelance - a real loss to the stable and to military writing in general.

Magoo
 

ELP

New Member
There was some good reading there. I enjoyed the breakdown of some of the F-18F block II cost and sustainment. Well done. Informative.

I did find this in error though...

ADBR-E research indicates the F/A-18F B2 is significantly more combat effective than the F-15E Block II - because of its designed-in stealth capability - which is regarded as “tactically significant” [20] in head on combat aspects, as well as the overall generational
improvement in the aircraft’s radar and combat management systems.

For the Super, 1 meter squared at 0db isn't stealth. Granted there is nothing L.O. about an F-15, the F-15 makes up for the difference with onboard fuel and speed. What the L.O. appliances on the Super give you is a solid base line for the self-protection gear on board Super ( and even more advantage with Block II Super because of the better avionics vs earlier Super LOT number avionics), to not have to work so hard and know when to do what effort in jamming/spoofing for self protection including knowing what it's exposure is to different threats specific to aircraft configuration/stores. And what L.O. it has is mostly on the front aspect. If anything makes Super Block II really low observable it is the relationship between it's excellent passive detection gear ( which it uses better because it is integrated into the system better) and of course how the self-protection gear, passive sensors and APG-79 all work as a team. Similar to F-22. I would wager many AMRAAM shots from Super could be done passive. That is what makes it scary. The Boeing advert using the word "stealth" makes nice, hoping people don't know those things and will believe it, also allowing the sales force to hide behind classified data pertaining to L.O. "Tactically significant" would really have to be justified. I would say "tactically helpful" in the way it is tactically helpful for a B-1 L.O. signature vs. weight of ECM gear on board. Every ounce of weight savings helps. B-1, like Super are easy examples of how L.O. tech enhancement improves on board ECM. This relationship goes even further when you consider a JSF is even more survivable with a G model Super helping it. The relationship is almost exactly the same, just that the JSF has better L.O.

F-15K has already been cleared for drop with not only Harpoon but SLAM-ER.
Don't have a TacMan in front of me but the one of the may ways Super kept development costs low is the spiral plan from which it came. They didn't blow a bunch of money right away clearing all kinds of weapons under the sun although if they had the cash they could have. Only the ones needed by the Navy. Super will carry a wide variety of weapons.... just not right away. Example JASSM captive carry has been done but was slowed a bit when Navy a few years ago dropped their participation in the JASSM program thinking SLAM-ER was enough and oh btw they have tons of really long range Tomahawks on call from ships and subs. . I am sure real JASSM clearance on Super will happen, er.. if the JASSM program doesn't get in even worse trouble than it already is. Where F-15E/K would come up short is being able to only carry 2 JASSM, however the Tac Man for JASSM on Super when it is all said and done may show only 2 JASSMs because of clearance issues ( those hardpoints being close) when you consider the rubber meets the road on dropping and a flying JASSM and not just captive carry. Don't know yet but I guess we will all see. Then even if you could carry 4 JASSM on Super that is a lot of elongated drag on 4 toed out hardpoints where you may prefer having drop tanks to help with the strike. The fuel consumption/tanking required would be interesting to see. The point being that if one is to get into a contest of who can carry what in a F-15E/K v Super comp at this date it wouldn't be pretty, including the higher weight on some E/K pylons. More about Super weapons clearance: When considering Super and weapons you have to consider a bunch of things like problematic clearance. The toed out hardpoints and SUU-79 plyons don't work and play well with all weapons configs, because of clearance issues and those stations are a bit close together. You also have other things to consider in that when carrying the ATFLIR on station 5 on Super, many USN people leave the drop tank off of station 4 (inboard left wing) because it can block the field of view of the ATFLIR on an attack or look-see when banking. That is why you see USN carry of ATFLIR sometimes a drop tank on centerline, inboard right wing, no drop tank on the inboard left wing station 4 and instead they will put a PGM on station 4 because they don't want the tank blocking the view. Not trying to knock a proven weapon system with this, althought it speaks to where the Super came from in a rushed development spiral with a gun to their head to watch costs. The costs were of course why they went with the toed out center and inboard stations and canted outboard hardpoints to address weapons clearance issues. This was first discovered in wind tunnel testing before any weapons drop flight testing. Scaled down models of the plane and weapons showed weapons bumping into weapons and fuselage in different configs with the original straight hard point design. They considered a wing redesign but decided toeing out and canting hardpoints/pylons was cheaper. This cut the range down some and created other things like vibration issues of hanging weapons vs life of certain weapons.

This is also off and doesn't match up to how E is used in ops..

twice the number of tankers to support an ‘Eagle’ fleet compared to F/A-18Fs, or would need to program into mission planning extended time wasted by the capability limiter of longer in-flight refuellings.

This looks good at first but incomplete in the whole tanking mix..., the higher fuel flow of a boom is significant, also, a F-15E/K will go longer with less refuelings. 800-900-1000 mile radius depending on what you hang, using less tanker resources by available tanking airframe/fraction. How the Super buddy tanking combined with big tankers, works out is about 8 or so hours with 3 tankings. This as mentioned above will depend on if you want ATFLIR on the mission and possible no drop tank on station 4 of Super in that ATFLIR config. Range being whatever. This link gives you an idea of long Strike Eagle missions. It isn't the complete article:

http://www.airwarriors.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7574

I have the article but that was the only free link from the Atlantic Monthly Article "The Kabul-ki Dance" I could find.

Sorry. Not trying to be overly critical. Most of the down checks on the advanced Strike Eagle for RAAF service put down in that piece were valid. I am not endorsing one for RAAF service. However on combat ability alone, except for carrier landings, a Strike Eagle is more powerful and it has some additional speed, fuel to play with for egress and setup. Pull the conformals off which is the preferred test pilot fun ride and the way it was demo'd on one of the flights in the Korea competition and you have an over powered monster good for sitting alert where your time from brake release to intercept is quick. Expensive, but very very capable.
 

AGRA

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
There was some good reading there. I enjoyed the breakdown of some of the F-18F block II cost and sustainment. Well done. Informative.
They're good points but I would add that as for capture carry proven weapons public information is rather patchy. Case in point the Australian Aviation 'playboy black label' cover from early this year that had the RAAF Super Hornet carrying ASRAAM and JASSM and now - after this time - we know that it will carry AIM-9X and JSOW.

On tanking the RAAF will use the Super Hornet differently to the USN having their own fleet of A330 tankers on top of any buddy refuelling. From 707 to A330 the RAAF will retain the two wingtip pods so will refuell as per Hornet SOP of two at a time. Can't do that with an F-15 unless you add a probe.

As for the Super's LO? Tilt back AESA, VLO designed LERXs, wingtips and intakes... It will be much better than a F-15. How does this translate into combat effectiveness? The USN call it 'tactically significant'... Which would imply some kind of benefit in face to face BVR shoots against threat Su-27s.
 
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FutureTank

Banned Member
http://www.adbr.com.au/data/ADBR-E_Prev.htm

ADBR have got two relevant articles available for download in pdf format

Edition C/2
AIR 6000: Setting the facts straight on the NACC
Part II: What is really the best new air combat bridging capability option for Australia?

Which examines the selection of the F-18F B2 super hornet as a gap-filler.
Not sure what all the fuss is about. It seemed to me the choice was inevitable because there is also a prerogative for the RAAF to maintain an interoperability with the USA, and that includes the USN as well as USAF. It may be that there are scenarios that require RAAF to utilise USN basing options operationally as well as those of the USAF, and some of these options are the aircraft carriers for which the F-15s are not suitable.
Aside from the F-18 there is no other more economic option due to the Super Hornet's existing degree of commonality with the existing RAAF fleet and the defined capability inputs.
The only consideration was the F-111 unrefueled range, and the fact that using F/A-18F will from now on require at least two aircraft and five flight crew instead of just two. However the mission performance trade offs are far greater as the article says.
 
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ELP

New Member
There was some good reading there. I enjoyed the breakdown of some of the F-18F block II cost and sustainment. Well done. Informative.

They're good points but I would add that as for capture carry proven weapons public information is rather patchy. Case in point the Australian Aviation 'playboy black label' cover from early this year that had the RAAF Super Hornet carrying ASRAAM and JASSM and now - after this time - we know that it will carry AIM-9X and JSOW.

On tanking the RAAF will use the Super Hornet differently to the USN having their own fleet of A330 tankers on top of any buddy refuelling. From 707 to A330 the RAAF will retain the two wingtip pods so will refuell as per Hornet SOP of two at a time. Can't do that with an F-15 unless you add a probe.

As for the Super's LO? Tilt back AESA, VLO designed LERXs, wingtips and intakes... It will be much better than a F-15. How does this translate into combat effectiveness? The USN call it 'tactically significant'... Which would imply some kind of benefit in face to face BVR shoots against threat Su-27s.
Thanks Agra.
 

rossfrb_1

Member
Not sure what all the fuss is about.
{snip}
.
I think it was more the way the decision was made. Initially the official line was something like 'we don't have a problem, JSF all the way'
Then all of a sudden bang $6 billion on a stopgap that until then there'd been denials was ever needed.
Plus it was the final nail in the coffin for the F-111 - with all that that implies.
Being an election year and all...the opposition was always going to make noises about it.
As people get time to mull over the situation and more information gets out, more people are warming to the idea.

rb
 

barra

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I think it was more the way the decision was made. Initially the official line was something like 'we don't have a problem, JSF all the way'
Then all of a sudden bang $6 billion on a stopgap that until then there'd been denials was ever needed.
Plus it was the final nail in the coffin for the F-111 - with all that that implies.
Being an election year and all...the opposition was always going to make noises about it.
As people get time to mull over the situation and more information gets out, more people are warming to the idea.
The official line from the pollies and top brass was that a stop gap measure was not required. However an RAAF evaluation team was quietly set up to study options for bridging capability, always with the view to eventual transition to JSF. Note that the cost of SH is extra funding and not coming from the JSF budget. Problems with the pace and questions about the eventual scope of the HUG program also affected the decision. It may have been a shock to the public but it wasn't the ill considered, knee jerk reaction that the opposition make it out to be.

Hooroo
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
I think it was more the way the decision was made. Initially the official line was something like 'we don't have a problem, JSF all the way'
Then all of a sudden bang $6 billion on a stopgap that until then there'd been denials was ever needed.
Plus it was the final nail in the coffin for the F-111 - with all that that implies.
Being an election year and all...the opposition was always going to make noises about it.
As people get time to mull over the situation and more information gets out, more people are warming to the idea.

rb
Seems not unlike the story of how the F-111 was purchased. Remember the F-4 Phantom IIs in Australian colours? Seems like the F-111s are going out the way they came in into the RAAF :)
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
The official line from the pollies and top brass was that a stop gap measure was not required. However an RAAF evaluation team was quietly set up to study options for bridging capability, always with the view to eventual transition to JSF. Note that the cost of SH is extra funding and not coming from the JSF budget. Problems with the pace and questions about the eventual scope of the HUG program also affected the decision. It may have been a shock to the public but it wasn't the ill considered, knee jerk reaction that the opposition make it out to be. Hooroo
Well, the worst case scenario is that after induction of F-35s and disposal of F/A-18As, the RAAF will still have 24 vary capable aircraft with a wide range of performance roles.
 

AGRA

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The official line from the pollies and top brass was that a stop gap measure was not required. However an RAAF evaluation team was quietly set up to study options for bridging capability, always with the view to eventual transition to JSF. Note that the cost of SH is extra funding and not coming from the JSF budget. Problems with the pace and questions about the eventual scope of the HUG program also affected the decision. It may have been a shock to the public but it wasn't the ill considered, knee jerk reaction that the opposition make it out to be.
The other part of the SH buy is that it is effectively an expansion of the RAAF from four combat squadrons to five from 2010-2020. The RAAF headshed has been making the argument to government that with HNA/ELF and the RAN's growth that the ACG will be overstreached to cover all the surface forces. The SH BACC is this growth. Wether it is growth by stealth or only temporary time will tell (watch out around 2018-20), however I doubt that the ADF of 2020 will be very keen on reducing its air combat capability because an allocation made in the 2007 budget has run out. This kind of things have a way of becoming very, very permament.
 

sunderer

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I cannot go into specifics but this week has been quite bad for the F-111 fleet in fact it came close to a grounding situation, so in that light I dont think SH can come quick enough.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
The other part of the SH buy is that it is effectively an expansion of the RAAF from four combat squadrons to five from 2010-2020. The RAAF headshed has been making the argument to government that with HNA/ELF and the RAN's growth that the ACG will be overstreached to cover all the surface forces. The SH BACC is this growth. Wether it is growth by stealth or only temporary time will tell (watch out around 2018-20), however I doubt that the ADF of 2020 will be very keen on reducing its air combat capability because an allocation made in the 2007 budget has run out. This kind of things have a way of becoming very, very permament.
Could it be that the extra squadron is a RAAF contingency for a possible RAN F-35 squadron towards the 2012-15 date?
 

barra

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Could it be that the extra squadron is a RAAF contingency for a possible RAN F-35 squadron towards the 2012-15 date?
LOL This is the rumour that refuses to die. Personally I think the RAN has a snowflakes chance in hell of getting there hands on F-35B's. Geez boys, let it go. :p:

Hooroo
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
LOL This is the rumour that refuses to die. Personally I think the RAN has a snowflakes chance in hell of getting there hands on F-35B's. Geez boys, let it go. :p:

Hooroo
Barra...if you build a deck for them, they will fly :D

PS. they say "war is hell" and it snows there :rolleyes:
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Barra...if you build a deck for them, they will fly :D
For reasons discussed earlier in this thread F-35B's will almost certainly be flown by the RAAF if they are eventually purchased to operate from the LHD's. However, as has been stated many times, the RAN has shown no interest in getting back into the carrier business and the RAAF has shown no interest in the F-35B.

As an enthusiast for naval aviation this is not a situation that I am happy with but I accept that it is the reality! :( I think that chances for a return to fixed wing naval aviation by the RAN is about the same as the chances of the re-establishment of an air combat force in New Zealand. :rolleyes:

Tas
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
For reasons discussed earlier in this thread F-35B's will almost certainly be flown by the RAAF if they are eventually purchased to operate from the LHD's. However, as has been stated many times, the RAN has shown no interest in getting back into the carrier business and the RAAF has shown no interest in the F-35B. Tas
But Tas...
I read in the latest news right here that
"On the other hand, Australia's Department of Defence told DID that the Canberra's concept of operations involved relying on protection from Hobart Class anti-air frigates and upgraded ANZAC Class ships, along with aerial coverage from E-737 Wedgetail AWACS et. al. (other available assets would include P-8A Poseidon sea/land surveillance aircraft, and possibly long range UAVs) to ensure overwatch and protection....
Australia's DoD did not add that the Canberra Class has the prerequisites to carry F-35B Lightning II STOVL fighters for additional aerial protection, as Australia has not made any decisions to buy this version or to outfit the Canberra Class with fighters. Nevertheless, this is also future possibility, alongside the potential to add systems like CEAFAR radars, CIWS/ SeaRAM systems, et. al."

There is no outright denial...
 
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