Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Can you show me one piece of credible information that shows defence is currently eying an additional SH buy?
Hey AD

On night shift again mate?

I can't show you anything concrete I'm afraid - it's just anecdotal hearsay through various defence and industry contacts. At this stage I don't think it carries much weight and is likely a precautionary move in case F-35 slips more to the right or CBR fails to proceed.

Re the squadron break downs - I think we're getting way ahead of ourselves here. As I said further up, I don't think it hasn't even been decided whether both 1SQN and 6SQN or just 1SQN will go to Supers yet. If it's both squadrons, I imagine 82WG will run a pool of jets from which both units will draw as required.

Cheers

Magoo
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Hey AD

On night shift again mate?
Yep, I get it every few months... I live the life of a night owl sometimes, getting home after finishing work at 2.00am or 4.00am, but unable to sleep, because an 8 hr sleep afterwards means I don't get up until 10.00am or 12.00pm the following day... It does wonders for my relationship... :rolleyes:

I can't show you anything concrete I'm afraid - it's just anecdotal hearsay through various defence and industry contacts. At this stage I don't think it carries much weight and is likely a precautionary move in case F-35 slips more to the right or CBR fails to proceed.
My comments in relation to that were directed at RJMAZ1, he seemed rather sure of his comments, I wanted him to justify them somehow. "Asking around" is all well and good. Asking who, or where "they" are from would be nice however...

Re the squadron break downs - I think we're getting way ahead of ourselves here. As I said further up, I don't think it hasn't even been decided whether both 1SQN and 6SQN or just 1SQN will go to Supers yet. If it's both squadrons, I imagine 82WG will run a pool of jets from which both units will draw as required.

Cheers

Magoo
Agreed. Very much the same as current operations...

Regards

AD
 

rossfrb_1

Member
RAAF SH purchase officially going through

according to
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...rnets-as-interim-gapfiller-to-jsf-02898/#more

last updated 27th.
Pretty much covers the whole topic, with plenty of links to accessory articles.
The interesting thing I noticed
"... but is now an official purchase, including a $1+ billion component of the order that just went through…."

I hope that $1 billion went through in the last couple of days - what with the AUD in the mid to high 80 US cent range!
Anyone know what the one billion dollar + component was?

rb

*****
cheers Magoo

So no money changing hands ATM. Pity.
 
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Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
according to
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...rnets-as-interim-gapfiller-to-jsf-02898/#more

last updated 27th.
Pretty much covers the whole topic, with plenty of links to accessory articles.
The interesting thing I noticed
"... but is now an official purchase, including a $1+ billion component of the order that just went through…."

I hope that $1 billion went through in the last couple of days - what with the AUD in the mid to high 80 US cent range!
Anyone know what the one billion dollar + component was?

rb
Before anyone panics (like I momentarily did yesterday), this is the contract from the US Govt to Boeing to commence work on Australia's 24 Supers, not a new contract or any exchange of monies between Australia and the US.

Cheers

Magoo
 

barra

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Australian arms deal before US Congress
Saturday Oct 6 07:21 AEST
The Bush administration has proposed to sell Australia a weapons package valued at up to million (.64 million) for a new fleet of 24 Boeing Co F/A-18E/F Super Hornet aircraft.

Notification of the proposed deal was sent to Congress by the Pentagon's Defence Security Cooperation Agency, which handles US government-to-government arms sales.

Australia is seeking 43 Raytheon Co-built AIM-9X Sidewinder air combat missiles, 50 AGM-154 air-to-surface Joint Standoff Weapons and 18 AN/ASQ-228 Advanced Targeting Forward-Looking Infrared pods, the announcement said.

The pods are designed to pinpoint targets on the ground by day or night. Also included would be 24 sets of radio frequency countermeasures, 90 helmet-mounted weapons-cueing systems and related gear valued at million (.64 million) if all options are exercised.

"Australia's efforts in peacekeeping and humanitarian operations have made a significant impact to regional political and economic stability and have served US national security interests," the Pentagon's notice said.

On May 3, Australia signed a contract to acquire 24 Super Hornet fighter/attack aircraft at a projected cost of .6 billion (.19 billion), including training and support over 10 years, becoming the jet's first foreign buyer.

The notice of a potential arms sale is required by law. It does not mean a sale has been concluded. Congress has the power to block an arms deal but rarely does so.
A report on the Australian SH deal, interesting that it gives types and numbers of weapons included. Should answer a few queries that have been posted on this forum.

Hooroo
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
A report on the Australian SH deal, interesting that it gives types and numbers of weapons included. Should answer a few queries that have been posted on this forum.

Hooroo
Interesting to see the numbers of weapons purchased, 43 sidewinders wouldnt even equip each platform with 2 (allthough i know each platform wont be operational at the same time, but still its a pretty limited war stock). Barra do you have any idea how many ASRAAM's we bought??? i would hope it was 300+. Also on annother note, what do we do with obsolete AAM's? The AMRAAM family is evolving pretty damn quickly. What in 10 years theres been an AIM 120 A, B, a couple of C's and now a D, not to mention the old AIM 7's. Do you know how many obsolete models we keep in our warstocks, how many of the latest variant we own and what we do with the old ones? I do realise that a slamer has a heafty price tag, $300 000 odd USD a peice.


On annother note i understand Global Hawk is a front runner for AIR 7000. If we do indeed aquire the platform i was wondering how (if at all) it would fit into our future maritime strike doctorine. Does its surface search capabilities, especially SAR allow it to be used as the second ISR link after JORN in the detection to launch chain? I guess the boiled down question is wether its info can be uset to target missiles???? I'm just wondering wether if the Hawk could replace those very, very valuable Wedgetails in this role.
 

barra

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
It doesn't stipulate whether these numbers are all warshots or if it includes CATM's and DATM's. I guess the exact number of warshots held would be classified and I can't really speculate cause I don't have a clue. Considering we haven't ever fired a missile in anger there would be little point in buying hundreds of AAM's, particularly when you have a great and powerful friend to supply you in an emergency. ;)

The use by date of EO is closely monitored, in AAM's case particularly by aircrew, and usually used before the date expires. It is usually a good excuse for a missile shoot, they usually won't destroy the target drone until the last day though. If they need to be disposed of because the use by date has passed then that is really poor planning.

The Global Hawks payload can be customised to suit the users needs, so sensor loads should be able to be changed as the situation dictates. Northrop Grumman is developing a payload called BACN which among other things can provide a mobile phone/communications network in the aftermath of natural disasters(a la Hurricane Katrina) or wars. Basically it can orbit a devastated area and provide all communications needs in the emergency response phase. I don't know if we are getting this kit but it has obvious military and civil uses.

Hooroo
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
It doesn't stipulate whether these numbers are all warshots or if it includes CATM's and DATM's. I guess the exact number of warshots held would be classified and I can't really speculate cause I don't have a clue. Considering we haven't ever fired a missile in anger there would be little point in buying hundreds of AAM's, particularly when you have a great and powerful friend to supply you in an emergency. ;)

The use by date of EO is closely monitored, in AAM's case particularly by aircrew, and usually used before the date expires. It is usually a good excuse for a missile shoot, they usually won't destroy the target drone until the last day though. If they need to be disposed of because the use by date has passed then that is really poor planning.
Like Ozzy I thought 43 Sidewinders was a small number and I would have thought that at least three times as many would be a minimum but I guess they would try to avoid having too many missiles time expiring simultaneously. Further annual purchases would provide some warstocks and avoid block obsolescence. The fact that the FA-18F will be primarily a strike weapon in the RAAF order of battle would perhaps be another reason to order a small number of AIM-9X's in the initial order.

Tas
 
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barra

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
43 sidewinders wouldnt even equip each platform with 2 (allthough i know each platform wont be operational at the same time, but still its a pretty limited war stock).
Next time you see some photo's of RAAF hornets have a close look at the missile load. You will find a CATM on one wingtip station only, Amraam CATM's are rarely carried. For training purposes that is all that is required. For public display or airshows, once again only training rounds would be used.
The only time live missiles would be loaded is for the real thing. I don't know if you realise that missiles are stored broken down so they can serviced and for safety and security reasons and are only assembled when they are being used.
In fact when we had AIM-9 CATM's on the Hornets the winglets were removed because they served no other purpose than looks and required touching up by the painters every so often.

Hooroo
 

AGRA

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Interestingly DSCA have pulled this announcement from their webpage. I would suspect there might be some typos in the original text... USD 600 million and all we get are 18 ATFLIRs, 80 JHMCS, 24 radar jammers, 40 AIM-9X and 50 JSOW?

There is something major missing from that package, like about USD 400-500m worth of gear. JSOWs alone only cost around USD 300,000 per weapon.
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Interestingly DSCA have pulled this announcement from their webpage. I would suspect there might be some typos in the original text... USD 600 million and all we get are 18 ATFLIRs, 80 JHMCS, 24 radar jammers, 40 AIM-9X and 50 JSOW?

There is something major missing from that package, like about USD 400-500m worth of gear. JSOWs alone only cost around USD 300,000 per weapon.
Agreed. Perhaps they're also coming with some SHARP pods, AIM-120Ds, and SLAM-ERs? Definately need an anti-ship capability...:confused: :confused: :confused:
 

ELP

New Member
Strange. If it is JSOW-C, it is pretty expensive compared to the other variants A and A-1, B being long cancelled.
 

AGRA

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Raytheon's production cost estimate for JSOW-ER which is an AGM-154C with a Sundstrand TJ-100 turbojet added is only USD 350,000. The weapon is very cheap and very capable. Why its such a good choice for the RAAF. Production funding for AGM-154B has been cancelled but it is fully developed. Raytheon have even lowered costs by improving the internal sealing system. Considering the Army has just brought the SMArt 155 two 'skeet' deploying weapon maybe the RAAF could trump them with a 24 'skeet' weapon.

Maybe in the next day or two DSCA will put the notification back online and it might be 'filled' out a bit.
 
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ELP

New Member
Hi Agra. Good info.

For the USAF anyway, they went with CBU-105 Wind Corrected Munitions Containers for carrying SFW BLU-108/b because they were a bit cheaper and CBU-105 carried more SFWs. That is the main reason for the USAF anyway, for no JSOW B models. If one wants you can also fit the glide wing kit to CBU-105 making it into an ER, however I don't know if we bought that option.

At least with a JSOW B model you know that the shape is cleared/certified for Super Hornet clearance/carry/drop. CBU-105 isn't a common U.S. Navy weapon and since the U.S.N. has to actually request to the Super Hornet program people, weapons that they will actually use, and then get carry, drop and certification flight testing done for said weapon, don't know if you will ever see a CBU-105 ever cleared for Super even though it wouldn't be that difficult to do. The Super Hornet program like everyone else is trying to make due with the very little money given to them. So yes a B JSOW could be an option for you if you ever wanted to go that way.

That is an incredible low price for JSOW-C compared to the past Agra. C (unitery Broach with IIR terminal guidance) would be impressive if still kinda expensive. (A-1 with a BLU-111 instead of dumb subminitions, no IIR, GPS/INS only are kinda cheap also if you ever wanted that for some reason). C because HART is built into Block II Supers, With HART, ground/SAR map imagery is gathered by the APG-79, the crew fiddles with the image to designate a target and passes that image to a Strap on IIR image sensor on the nose of a JDAM hanging on the aircraft. These strap on imagers for JDAM/HART are now funded by USN for delivery some time in the future. This HART technology will work with JSOW C and at some time there will be a software release on the Super Hornet spiral development plan to have this HART ability for JASSM. That SAR image that the HART equipped Super Hornet feeds into the weapon can obviously come over the network from another platform/network node. Example; a lead Super could gather a fresh image of a target of interest and pass the image to the decision maker and in turn that image is passed to another Super that has an IIR capable J-weapon on board. HART would also work with SLAM-ER if that ever was purchased. As we all know the Block II Super avionics are pretty amazing. You have a lot of future purchase options for capability needs/wants.

Off topic, back to the SFWs being smart submunitions with self destruct ability don't leave any duds lying around like dumb submuntions which have a high dud rate. A bambi loving peacenik group looked at some areas where CBU-105 was dropped after OIF and there were no duds. So any fearmongering over SFWs like the new Aussie arty PGM round leaving duds lying around are not an issue except maybe to the clueless press. It won't happen with that style smart submunition. The SFWs of that kind like in the Arty round are proven. BLU-108/b SFWs in one instance, contained by CBU-105, in OIF, killed off a significant portion of an armored unit. AFVs in the open will die fast when attacked in this way, in the classic form of "I can touch you, but you can't touch me".

CBU-105 BLU-108/b video (apologies as I couldn't find the original video that was much better and had real people interviews and showed test range footage).. This gives you an idea of what that style of SFW similar to your new arty rounds can do. This video is a bit wrong as only 2 CBU-105s were dropped which took out a 1/3 or so of the vehicles and the rest of the Iraqis, not knowing what was killing them, got out of their vehicles and put up there hands and surrendered to the USMC unit.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THZvZ6S4C14"]YouTube - Textron's Sensor Fuzed Weapon (SFW) in OIF B-52 attack[/ame]
 
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barra

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Hi ELP,
Interesting video there, amazing what smart weapons can do these days. Do these weapons classify as cluster munitions? Australia has had a ban on using cluster munitions in the past. During OIF RAAF EO techs where not supposed to help in the assembly of cluster bombs on the USAF assembly lines. However that was on the other side of the airstrip so we're not sure what happened over there. :D
Reading your post it appears the Aust. Army has already procured smart artillery rounds so maybe that answers my question anyway.

Hooroo
 

ELP

New Member
Obviously I'm not a treaty expert. However I don't think Defence would have gotten those arty rounds without proper study despite what some ill informed news orgs may fear-monger. That weapon operates similar/same to a BLU-108/b so I don't see how you are going to have duds around with smart submunitions of that style.

The dumb submunitions are a big problem. Especially if you also kick out the back of a C-17, yellow colored food packages as part of a combined war/relief campaign like in the opening of OEF. As you can figure, a combined effects CBU-97/b dumb submunition is a pretty yellow also. Dud rates can push between 5-9% depending on who you believe. Dumb submuntions were a real problem for us in OIF when used with the Army's very powerful MLRS. Don't know the nomenclature on the MLRS dumb submunitions. As for a go-to-hell-in-a-hand-basket fearsome NK DMZ scenario, they can use all the dumb submunitions they want as far as I care.
 

AGRA

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
No one (Australia/US/etc) are actually signatories to an anti-cluster bomblet treaty - yet. And sensor fuzed munitions (SFM) 'skeet's like SMArt and BLU-108 would not qualify because they are actually guided rounds. Apart from being dispensed by similar sized launchers at a much lower rate (2 to 88 for 155mm round) they are guided based on target recognition and have multiple fuzes so the fail rate, leading to unexploded ordnance (UXO) polluting the battlefield is lower than conventional unitary munitions. Compared to firing standard 155mm HE rounds SFMs like SMArt will leave less UXO on the battlefield.

As ELP says the 5-9% dud rate of cluster bomblets (DPICM in Army Artillery talk) is a major worry for military forces as well as post conflict civilians. However the UXO problem is being solved that will reduce to insignificance the real concern about using these types of weapons. This may not however reduce the hype.

Using MLRS as a good example the improved DPICM GMLRS (Guided) will hugely decrease the bomblet UXO against a typical target, a GBAD SA-6 firing unit. To destroy this SA-6 unit with conventional unguided and legacy DPICM MLRS you will need to fire 75 rockets that will leave 1,546 dud bomblets (8% failure rate) over an area of 284,000m2. This is a significant UXO problem and would also require breaching by engineers for a blue force to transverse.

Firing GMLRS you would only need 15 rockets (because of their increased accuracy) that would leave 44 duds (1.5% failure rate) over an area of 82,000m2. Considering this area would also be the location of several destroyed SAM units including damaged missiles with warheads and rocket motors, plus burning vehicles and other hazards, the 44 dud bomblets would be a minor part of the UXO threat.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
Next time you see some photo's of RAAF hornets have a close look at the missile load. You will find a CATM on one wingtip station only, Amraam CATM's are rarely carried. For training purposes that is all that is required. For public display or airshows, once again only training rounds would be used.
The only time live missiles would be loaded is for the real thing. I don't know if you realise that missiles are stored broken down so they can serviced and for safety and security reasons and are only assembled when they are being used.
In fact when we had AIM-9 CATM's on the Hornets the winglets were removed because they served no other purpose than looks and required touching up by the painters every so often.

Hooroo
Yeah i have noticed that. A couple of dumb questions from a civie :D : Why bother with a single round when your not actively useing it in training, you would think it would just add drag, or are WVR (training) engagements not practicle without it? Also do missiles have a shelf life? How often to we have to replace our warstocks (in general terms OPSEC and all)???


Thanks mate this would clear a few things up for me.
 
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