Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

[Magoo]

Also some food for though regarding the F-35B's.

Some of you think that there will be fewer F-35A's to fill the airforce squadrons..


Lets look at the F-111 fleet..

We currently operate 26 F-111's. Half of which are usually not operational. Best case we have 16 or so F-111's operational. Thats about right for a single squadron... But wait... We have TWO F-111 squadrons thats only 8 operational aircraft per squadron!!

So much for our 24 aircraft per squadron idea.

Lets look at our F/A-18 Fleet.

We have 71 aircraft. 17 of two seat trainers and 51 single seat combat aircraft.
Now we have three squadrons which would seem right but then we also have a training/conversion unit which uses the two seaters shared with Number 3 and 77 squadrons are Williamstown. As most squadrons include a couple two seaters that gives us only 17-18 combat aircraft per squadron.

So much for out 24 aircraft squadron idea.

If we reduce the squadron size to 20 aircraft that is much more realistic. 5 squadrons of 20 brings up 100 aircraft in total. Looking at squadron sizes of the F-111 i believe that the reliability of the F-35's will be so good that we could use 16 aircraft squadrons. That gives us 5 squadrons of 16 aircraft to replace the two F-111 and two F/A-18 hornet squadrons. That brings a total of only 80 F-35 aircraft.

A 6th additional suqadron of 16 aircraft could consist of F-35B's. 16 would be a perfect size of F-35B's. 8 F-35's could be rotated onto one of the three LHD's.

Yes, there are two F-111 squadrons, but only one of these is an operational unit (1SQN), while the other is a conversion unit (6SQN). The last of the G models were retired as of last week, leaving 21 C models, of which only six to eight are allocated to 6SQN according to operational requirements.

There are three operational Hornet squadrons (3, 75 and 77), and one conversion unit (2OCU). There are 71 Hornets left in service, 16 of which are two-seat B models, and 55 single seat A models, however due to the ongoing HUG program and R3 maintenance program, the squadrons are operating at their minimum numbers of about 10 to 12 airframes on line. Don't forget also, the B model is fully combat capable, albeit with about eight percent less range.

Whereas Hornet tail numbers and markings have previously been assigned to units in the past, these are now all mixed across the fleet as they complete their HUG 2.2 upgrades and are re-allocated, e.g. 77SQN, the first all HUG 2.2 unit currently has tail markings from all four units allocated to it. So Basically, an operational pool of jets is controlled by 81WG, and these are allocated ad hoc to units to meet their respective operational, exercise, or training commitments.

The 100 JSF numbers comes from what is thought to be an optimum number of airframes required, allowing for attrition and maintenance requirements, to maintain four operational and two conversion units, just as 75 Hornets and 24 F-111s were originally thought to be sufficient in the 70s. However, due to the unreliability of the F-111s during the 80s and the impending digital AUP in the 90s, an additional 15 F-111Gs were acquired so as to keep "sufficient airframes in the carports" as the CO of 6SQN said in a recent article. Now that the C models has been given a definite retirement date (June 30, 2010), the Gs which are almost all due for some deep maintenance, can instead be drawn down with confidence.

The F-35 and F/A-18F are expected to be far more reliable than the aircraft they replace; for example, the F/A-18F in USN service currently requires about 12 maintenance man hours per flight hour (MMH/FH) while at sea on a carrier to keep flying, whereas the F-14 often needed more than 100! If the F-35 does end up replacing the F/A-18F around 2021, it is unlikely we'll require two OCUs. Therefore, the ultimate number of F-35s acquired may end up being closer to 80 rather than the 100 currently specified, whilst still being able to maintain the desired number of aircraft on the ramp and squadrons.

And just on the F-35B, although I wouldn't bet my life on it, I'm very confident it'll NEVER be acquired for the ADF, as neither the RAAF nor the RAN want them, and you'd be hard pressed to find anyone in uniform to recommend them to the Minister in the near future. The LHDs are going to be troop, helicopter and landing craft carriers - that's it!

Cheers

Magoo

 

[Navor86]

IMHO anything less than converting the current Hornet and F111 Squadrons
would be an bad idea. I mean with 100 you can easy put No6 Squadron from an F111 OCU to an F35 Combat Squadron. And with just an Aircrafttype 1 OCU would be sufficent enough. So the goal for Oz should be 5 JSF Combat Sqn+ 1OCU. So in time of emergency you could deploy for first wave of Operations 2 JSF Sqn

 

[barra]

Historically the RAAF has operated 18 airframes per sqn and I am pretty sure this will be the model for F-35. I am unsure how many jets other Air Forces have per Sqn, I think the USAF operate large 24 A/C sqns. Just because a sqn has 18 A/C on their flightline though, doesn't mean they have 18 serv jets to fly. So total airframes and serv jets available to fly are usually two entirely different figures and usually comes down to the quality of your logistical support. Can't fix jets if you ain't got no spares.
Before HUG each sqn had a dual and the rest were fighters. Magoo is right in that the fleet is "grey tailed" meaning they are transfered within units no matter what sqn markings they carry.
Current plans(before Super Hornets were ordered) have 2OCU closing when the classic Hornets retire and 6sqn being the first F-35 SQN, carrying out the OCU role. After that the four operational F-35 sqn's will stand up, most likely 1, 3, 75 and 77 sqns. ARDU will operate a couple and there was some fat built in to cover attrition. No number has been set, only "up to 100" has been mentioned. So the end number will rely on the cost per A/C when they are ordered. If the price comes in to high then we will get less of them.
What happens to the Super Hornets when we have all our F-35's is unclear at this stage.

Hooroo

 

[Tasman]

Magoo and Barra have brought us back to reality. It's good to have someone tell it 'as it is'.

I hope you are wrong about the F-35Bs Magoo. Never seems an awfully long time. I do agree with you that they are unlikely to be considered in 'the near future'.

Tas

 

[rjmaz1]

Historically the RAAF has operated 18 airframes per sqn and I am pretty sure this will be the model for F-35.

18 Aircraft per squadron? I dont know where you got that number from.

We are ordering 24 superhornets to form 2 squadrons.

Thats 12 airframes per squadron.

With the F-111's we have less than half of your 18 aircraft per squadron.

If the RAAF follow this model with the F-35 we dont even need 80 F-35's to replace the current squadrons.

I can see the RAAF operating the F-35 for 30 years so extra aircraft for attrition would be a possibility. As it will probably be the last US manned fighter aircraft to be produced.

 

[Tasman]

18 Aircraft per squadron? I dont know where you got that number from.

We are ordering 24 superhornets to form 2 squadrons.

Thats 12 airframes per squadron.

With the F-111's we have less than half of your 18 aircraft per squadron.

I think Barra was saying that historically the number per fighter squadron in the RAAF was 18. In recent times the figure dropped to 14 as available FA-18 numbers have declined during the HUG program. Magoo has indicated that the numbers on line are currently down to between 10 and 12.

In the case of bomber, maritime, transport and special purposes squadrons the numbers have been smaller (although the present C-130 squadron has 20 at the present time). The F-111's were regarded as bombers when they entered RAAF service and the squadron establishment was smaller than that for fighters.

Tas

 

[Aussie Digger]

18 Aircraft per squadron? I dont know where you got that number from.

We are ordering 24 superhornets to form 2 squadrons.

Thats 12 airframes per squadron.

With the F-111's we have less than half of your 18 aircraft per squadron.

If the RAAF follow this model with the F-35 we dont even need 80 F-35's to replace the current squadrons.

I can see the RAAF operating the F-35 for 30 years so extra aircraft for attrition would be a possibility. As it will probably be the last US manned fighter aircraft to be produced.

Out of 71x F/A-18A/B Hornets RAAF typically operates 55x operational aircraft within it's 3x Squadrons, depending on maintenance and availability levels as outlined above. Obviously you missed it...

At full strength, how many per Squadron is that off hand?

Again, as above, the Super Hornets WILL entirely be issued to 1 Squadron. 6 Squadron will be transitioning to the F-35 and will not EVER receive any Super Hornets as I understand the current plans.

I imagine a small OCU will be organised within 1 Squadron, meaning that the operational force of Rhino's will in fact comprise around 18x aircraft...

 

[Tasman]

RAAF FA-18's for Afghanistan?

Today's Australian reported that Australia is considering sending AP-3C Orions and FA-18 Hornets to Afghanistan. The comment was made by Mark Dodd in a report re the deployment of an army mortar section.

Mark Dodd | September 03, 2007


... Other measures being considered by the ADF include sending sophisticated Orion surveillance planes and a possible deployment of RAAF F/A-18C Hornet jets.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22354008-601,00.html

The full article is posted in the Australian Army thread.

I don't know how reliable Mark's report is but, re the fighters, I presume the RAAF would only be considering the deployment of a detachment of FA-18A's.

Tas

 

[Aussie Digger]

I don't know how reliable Mark's report is but, re the fighters, I presume the RAAF would only be considering the deployment of a detachment of FA-18A's.

Tas

True, we don't actually operate ANY F-18C's...

 

[Tasman]

True, we don't actually operate ANY F-18C's...

That does make me wonder about the accuracy of Mark's comments! Although one of our more knowledgeable members on aviation matters, did mention in another forum, that the modernised Oz FA-18's are now referred to as 'C's' by Boeing.

Tas

 

[rossfrb_1]

SBS news reported tonight that Australia and the US - and I only tuned in half way through, and didn't catch all of it - will be signing some sort of super military technology sharing pact during APEC (whilst showing footage of a JSF). The take I had was that this would be to Australia's benefit.

I realise that it could be the reverse -and mean Oz flogs off its JORN tech or somesuch (if it hasn't already).

But there was the hint in the aviation miltech direction.
Now I don't know where things stand re JSF technology transfer ATM - I believe Oz won't have access to to the JSF software coding suites, maybe that will change OR (cue 2001 a space odyssey music) access to something else?? Howard WAS looking rather smug in the soundbite shown - and this is an election year. The only thing I'd rule out is Johnny doing cartwheels for the camera.

rb

some recent releases on this topic
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22370588-31477,00.html

http://www.pm.gov.au/media/Release/2007/Media_Release24535.cfm

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

I have a question re RAAF squadron sizes and mainitince cycles for those real RAAFies out there in DT world such as barra and magoo. Given the current squadron size of 14 A/C per sqn and the current fleet size of 55, how do maintance requirements fit in with that number? I was under the impression that for every platform you had ready for the battle, you had one in maitinance or upgrades, hence 24 F18F's equiping a single 12 A/C squadron. But it seems this isn't so and my operational squadron numbers of 12 were wrong. Exactly how does the RAAF manage the maintinance requirments of its fighter fleet, and how many bugs does it keep operational at any one time? I guess the basic question is how big does your fleet size need to be to keep x number platforms battle ready????? how many bugs are rady to fight at any one time, not taking exercise requirements into account.

 

[Magoo]

I have a question re RAAF squadron sizes and mainitince cycles for those real RAAFies out there in DT world such as barra and magoo. Given the current squadron size of 14 A/C per sqn and the current fleet size of 55, how do maintance requirements fit in with that number? I was under the impression that for every platform you had ready for the battle, you had one in maitinance or upgrades, hence 24 F18F's equiping a single 12 A/C squadron. But it seems this isn't so and my operational squadron numbers of 12 were wrong. Exactly how does the RAAF manage the maintinance requirments of its fighter fleet, and how many bugs does it keep operational at any one time? I guess the basic question is how big does your fleet size need to be to keep x number platforms battle ready????? how many bugs are rady to fight at any one time, not taking exercise requirements into account.

Like I said before, although the two-seat B models are primarily used for conversion and instructor training, they are fully combat capable and must therefore be included in the OOB, so it's 71 Hornets, not 55.

The 71 jets (originally 75) were deemed sufficient to be able to maintain the three operational squadrons, one OCU and two jets assigned to ARDU throughout the life of the jet. In fact, the RAAF had expected to lose 10 Hornets through attrition by half life of type (~2000) and up to 15 by the time they were retired, so they're well ahead of the curve in that regard.

With the ongoing HUG upgrades at the moment, it's hard to quantify numbers of aircraft availability etc. While many of the mods are carried out while the jets go through R3s, some can't be due to timing etc. The optimum number of jets assigned to each unit is between 15 and 18, with about 20% of these expected to be down for maintenance. But at the moment as many as a third of the fleet could be going through HUG and/or R3.

The F/A-18Fs is a different proposition, and is really a one-off due to it being a "bridging capability" as opposed to a longer term proposition. As AD said, it was planned that only 1SQN would fly the Super while 6SQN went straight to the F-35, although I understand this is now under review and that 6SQN is back in the F/A-18F mix. Indeed, it may be that 6SQN will relinquish its F-111 OCU role early and head over to the US in late 09 to bring the first jets back in mid 2010. It will become the F/A-18F OCU, and 1SQN the operational unit as is the case with the F-111. The 24 jets will be assigned to 82WG as opposed to individual units, and the two squadrons will draw from the pool of 24 jets as required.

Cheers

Magoo

 

[Navor86]

Moin,
if seen on wiki that RAAF has choosen the P8 Poseidon as an P3 Replacement.
If this true how many Airframes would be purchased. A 1 one 1 Replacement which would lead to 18 Airframes?
By the way RAAF also wanted to purchase UAV like Global Hawk and Predator any talk on Aircraft Numbers of this models,

 

[Aussie Digger]

Moin,
if seen on wiki that RAAF has choosen the P8 Poseidon as an P3 Replacement.
If this true how many Airframes would be purchased. A 1 one 1 Replacement which would lead to 18 Airframes?
By the way RAAF also wanted to purchase UAV like Global Hawk and Predator any talk on Aircraft Numbers of this models,

There hasn't been any decision yet on numbers, the AP-3C replacement project (AIR-7000) has only just been given first pass approval, which means technically that something OTHER than the P-8A could be chosen.

Second pass approval is where the actual platform, numbers etc is approved by Government and ADF can go ahead and acquire said platform.

However in saying that the Government has given approval to invest into the SDD phase of the USN's P-8A program so...

I doubt there will be a 1 for 1 replacement of the AP-3C with the P-8, however RAAF has been given $4.5B JUST to acquire the new manned aircraft component of AIR-7000 however, so RAAF should be able to acquire a substantial number of airframes with this amount of funding. I can see from this amount alone that RAAF should be able to acquire between 8-12 airframes at LEAST...

As to the BAMS requirement, no decision has been made on the platform or numbers for RAAF's maritime UAV. This program IIRC was only given first pass approval last year and I expect that RAAF is awaiting the outcome of the USN's BAMS project before it commits to a platform, despite previously announcing that we WILL acquire Global Hawk.

I'd imagine however that anywhere from 4-8 Global Hawk LIKE UAV's are a definite possibility, leaving us in a much better position persistance and response-wise than we are now...

 

[rjmaz1]

The 24 jets will be assigned to 82WG as opposed to individual units, and the two squadrons will draw from the pool of 24 jets as required.

Do you see the flight hours of the F/A-18F's rising quickly?

I would think the flight hours would build up quickly with two squadrons sharing only 24 aircraft. This tends to suggest the RAAF doesn't want to operate them for 30 years but only 20 years at most.

A few have suggested that the last squadron of F-35's may replace the F/A-18F's, some have suggested they'd be flown alongside the F-35.

My opinion is the RAAF intends to put alot of the load on the F/A-18F's shoulders and by the time the last squadron of F-35's arrive their wont be much life left in the super Hornets.

A mid life upgrade would then be required which would be convenient as they could also be converted to the latest growler spec aircraft.

 

[rjmaz1]

Moin,
if seen on wiki that RAAF has choosen the P8 Poseidon as an P3 Replacement.
If this true how many Airframes would be purchased. A 1 one 1 Replacement which would lead to 18 Airframes?
By the way RAAF also wanted to purchase UAV like Global Hawk and Predator any talk on Aircraft Numbers of this models,

The Global hawk may very well be purchased. This has some crossover with the current P-3 aircraft in terms of the missions they can perform.

This would no doubt mean that we could buy fewer P-8 aircraft as the Global hawk could swing in to lend a hand.

Also the P-8 can fly higher and faster allowing it to cover a larger area. It will also have more advanced and powerful sensors. Finally the P-8 uses a comercial 737 design so maintenance will allow for a larger percentage of the fleet to be available.

It wouldn't surprise me if they bough one P-8 aircraft for every two P-3 aircraft. That would not result in any reduction in capability in my opinion.

 

[Navor86]

Currently Oz operates 18 p3 for long term Ops I would really like to see 13 P8(12 for Ops one for Training) in addition 8 Golbal Hawks as they also could be used for Ground Recon.
What I do not understand is that they also evluate the Mariner and Predator ,which are in a different class than the Global Hawk

 

[barra]

Hi Guys,
Been out of town for a few days and am just catching up on the discussion. With regards to OB's question about Hornet sqn size, on paper each sqn should have 18 a/c. However HUG has impacted on a/c availability and 81WG manages a/c allocations to each sqn. So for example 2OCU as the training unit has highest priority and then the op sqn's get allocated a/c on the strength of their planned activity, so if 77 is doing a bomb camp and needs extra a/c 3 and 2OCU may lose a couple for a few weeks. This is referred to as a grey tail fleet, sqn markings on a/c have no bearing on who is actually operating it. So a/c numbers in the sqns is fairly fluid at the moment and will remain so until HUG is finished.
You must also understand that because a sqn has say 14 a/c available on paper, there may actually only be 8-10 serv jets to fly. We have operated Hornets now for over 20 years and they are getting tired. They are still formidable assets though and after HUG is finished will be even more so.
Magoo made some comments that I would like to elaborate on. Jets are not going into HUG when an R3 is required. 81WG manages which jets are inducted into HUG and when. Training new aircrew is one of ACG's main prioritys so most of the duals have already been through HUG 2.2. In fact doing an R3 and HUG 2.2 mod at the same time would be a nightmare. Boeing currently have the "speedline" going where each jet takes about 3 months to modify, any u/s's discovered by Boeing are recorded and left to sqn techs to rectify. Which has been a source of angst amongst the sqn's.
Also the comments about 6sqn becoming the Super Hornet OCU are incorrect. All the SH's will have a WSO in the rear seat, or an ACO as the RAAF calls them. SH's will not be able to be flown from the rear seat. I guess 2OCU will continue to train aircrew for Hornet ops including the SH sqns. I remember hearing somewhere that a Hornet pilot can transition from our -A/-B's to -F's in 5 hours or 5 flights I think, was a major part of the decision to purchase SH's instead of another type. I am not sure what the plan is for transition to JSF, but I guess that if 6SQN are still going to be the first to receive them then 1SQN may become the sole operator of F/A-18F.
Most of you may have guessed that I am a serving member, as such I am reluctant to comment on many things you guys discuss.(the ADF is pretty anal about OPSEC) There have been plenty of times I have wanted to comment or expand on a point made but I can't. If you want to ask me a direct question then you can PM me.

Hooroo

 

[old faithful]

Hey barra,just tried to PM you...no luck! Im in Darwin and a pretty keen barra fisho...if youre up this way,drop me a line!
Have some questions for you regarding ADGies,however,they are probably best kept to PM.