Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

SpazSinbad

Active Member
We know our Growlers will be updated in lockstep with USN Growlers 'all the way with NGJ' (which we help the USN to develop). My understanding from reading over the years (some sources can be provided) long ago it was decided to NOT change the last dozen Super Hornets to Growlers; but to buy newly minted versions instead - cost reasons were cited along with the knowledge that NO ONE had done this conversion before. Also there is a question about the airframe changes required: are these necessary? The Growler has a slightly different wing in comparison to the Super Hornet - will this need to be changed also (along with other hardware/airframe changes) or will the Growler with a Super Hornet wing be OK? Dunno.

My betting arm is throwing to the purchase of a NEW Growler IF the decision is made to replace the 'damaged beyond economical repair' article - I guess we'll find out one day.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
We know our Growlers will be updated in lockstep with USN Growlers 'all the way with NGJ' (which we help the USN to develop). My understanding from reading over the years (some sources can be provided) long ago it was decided to NOT change the last dozen Super Hornets to Growlers; but to buy newly minted versions instead - cost reasons were cited along with the knowledge that NO ONE had done this conversion before. Also there is a question about the airframe changes required: are these necessary? The Growler has a slightly different wing in comparison to the Super Hornet - will this need to be changed also (along with other hardware/airframe changes) or will the Growler with a Super Hornet wing be OK? Dunno.

My betting arm is throwing to the purchase of a NEW Growler IF the decision is made to replace the 'damaged beyond economical repair' article - I guess we'll find out one day.
So pre-wiring was a waste of time and money?
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Not a very pleasant story but at least the crew are going to be ok. The link mentions the 25% of PEs are due to ECS failures in SHs and Growlers and the numbers are higher for legacy Hornets. However I rarely hear about PEs in RCAF Hornets (which could be due DND not releasing info) or other allied Hornet users. Maybe I am not looking hard enough. Has anyone seen reports of PEs in Finland, Spain, Australia or Switzerland?
 

SpazSinbad

Active Member
So pre-wiring was a waste of time and money?
Only if the facility not used. However it is as it is - nascent potential at some extra unknown cost most likely. Seemed like a good idea at the time. Look how the SUPERs turned out.

IIRC several years ago the USN stated that NO MORE Shornet / Growlers (I think also) would be bought. Then there was a change of heart when USN realized how they were burning Shornet hours doing TANKER duties and all those long sorties to desert lands from afar. Now the Shornet/Growler line continues for some time to come methinks.

So the 'growler wired Shornets' were a hedge against the Shornet/Growler line closing in the foreseeable future at that time. Makes sense to me. Might work out if the change is made - probably at a later date when future of the family is decided along with the fourth tranche of F-35 (to make 100 or so).
 
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SpazSinbad

Active Member
Not a very pleasant story but at least the crew are going to be ok. The link mentions the 25% of PEs are due to ECS failures in SHs and Growlers and the numbers are higher for legacy Hornets. However I rarely hear about PEs in RCAF Hornets (which could be due DND not releasing info) or other allied Hornet users. Maybe I am not looking hard enough. Has anyone seen reports of PEs in Finland, Spain, Australia or Switzerland?
Why can't I go back a page easily? ??? On previous page was a report about RAAF interest in Hornet Family PEs - don't know about dem furriners - they breathe rarified oxy anyways. :)
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Why can't I go back a page easily? ??? On previous page was a report about RAAF interest in Hornet Family PEs - don't know about dem furriners - they breathe rarified oxy anyways. :)
This is from your link posted earlier.

“UPDATE: ADBR submitted a list of written questions to the ADF on February 15 asking whether RAAF Hornets, Super Hornets and Growlers have experienced similar events, and we received the following response from a Defence spokesman this afternoon.

“Personnel safety is Defence’s number one priority. Physiological episodes are caused by complex interactions between human physiology and the aircraft breathing air system.

“The problem is extremely complex as contaminants can be generated by a number of sources both within and external to the aircraft. Investigations led by the US Navy continue to develop a detailed understanding of this problem.

“Australian F/A-18F Super Hornet and EA-18G Growler aircrew have experienced events known as physiological episodes. The Royal Australian Air Force continues to exercise a risk management plan for both the Super Hornets and Growlers.”

I assume classic Hornets have this issue but again, most reports are about USN SHs and Growlers. The above quote confirms it is an issue for RAAF SHs and Growlers as well but no mention about classics. Interesting, “continue to exercise a risk management plan”, the same CYA language the RCAF uses.
 

SpazSinbad

Active Member
I'll look further for evidence that RAAF Hornets 'suffer' PEs. I think it is generally acknowledged (at least to military jet aircrew in pressurized cockpits) that PEs will occur thus they train for that eventuality. I have read that around 2000 the RAAF stop pressure chamber training at Point Cook because of the risk to trainees. I have not read whatever replaced that pressure chamber training. The USN have special facilities for hypoxia training for example (which the RAAF could replicate easily enough). Some video examples follow:

NAVAIR Flight Ready: Hypoxia Training Published on May 29, 2013 NAVAIRSYSCOM
"Pilots at NAS Patuxent River undergo hypoxia training inside manned flight simulator. Given an intense task to perform, the training helped aircrew better prepare for a potential loss of oxygen in flight."

_____________________________________________

CASA Safety Video - Hypoxia: A seductive way to die Published on Sep 1, 2013 CASABriefing
"There's only one good thing to be said for hypoxia. It probably doesn't hurt as much as the many other ways in which committing aviation can kill you. The first survivor of aviation-related hypoxia got to the nub of the problem when he described it. Hypoxia is a seductive way to die."

 

SpazSinbad

Active Member
Australian Defence Force hypobaric chamber training, 1984–2001
Wing Commander Tracy L Smart, BM BS, DipAvMed and Dr Gordon G Cable, MB BS, ACCAM, DipAvMed, MRAeS
"In February 2001, COMCARE Australia, the Commonwealth Government occupational health and safety authority, served a prohibition notice to the Chief of Defence Force (ADF), effectively bringing to an end over 60 years of hypobaric training of ADF aircrew....

...The benefits of hypoxia training are subjective. Anecdotal evidence suggests that most military aircrew find hypobaric chamber training beneficial.... Thirty aircrew had experienced hypoxia in flight and believed that their hypoxia training aided them in recognising symptoms and responding to the emergency.... A review of ADF operational hypoxia incidents found 27 reports from 1990 to 2001, involving 29 aircrew. Two aircrew lost consciousness, and there was one fatality that was probably the result of hypoxia. However, most trained aircrew recognised their own symptoms or signs in others and took corrective action. Hypoxia familiarisation training is likely to increase the ability to recognise symptoms and successfully deal with hypoxic emergencies, and this saves lives...." http://www.defence.gov.au/Health/infocentre/journals/ADFHJ_apr04/ADFHealth_5_1_03-10.pdf (no longer works but search). The eight PDF is attached now.
 

Attachments

SpazSinbad

Active Member
The 'fatal hypoxia' event probably refers to the Hornet pilot removing his oxygen mask whilst climbing to altitude. Whether he was hypoxic BEFORE doing this is uncertain however he was in bad shape subsequently, not responding to wingman radio calls to put his oxy mask back on. The aircraft flew on before crashing in a remote area with wreckage not found until years later in a deep hole.
 

SpazSinbad

Active Member
Some info about fatal RAAF Hornet 'hypoxic' pilot crash: RAAF memorial marks mystery death of pilot
"06 Jun 2011...The F/A-18 jet, piloted by Officer Conroy, 26, took off from RAAF Tindal, outside Katherine, on June 5, 1991 for a routine training flight. When Officer Conroy failed to respond to radio calls, his wingman flew alongside him. "He was last seen to be slumped forward or incapacitated in the cockpit as the aircraft continued to fly," Squadron Leader Arms said. "It is thought the pilot died from a lack of oxygen or contaminated air. "As a result, Australia's F-18s were modified to regulate oxygen quality."..."
 
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SpazSinbad

Active Member
This 30 minute editing rool is the pits - just lost a big chunk of formatted text to that rule in above post. BAH HUMBUG. I suspect the RAAF uses ROBD training in a similar manner seen in the USN VIDEO in above post.
THE IMPACT OF HYPOBARIC VERSUS HYPOXIC HYPOXIA TRAINING IN ELEVEN HIGH PERFORMANCE MILITARY PILOTS
A. Macovei and D. Popescu National Institute of Aerospace Medicine, Bucharest, Romania
AEROSPACE MEDICINE AND HUMAN PERFORMANCE Vol. 87, No. 3 March 2016

INTRODUCTION: page 277 or physical page 19
Recently, the new modality of physiological training has emerged from the research labs into the specific market. The reduced oxygen breathing devices (ROBD) have the potential to enhance and/or replace our current hypoxia training altitude chamber.

METHODS:
A total of 11 experienced high performance pilots had undergone physiological training in the hypobaric facility of The National Institute of Aerospace Medicine in Bucharest, Romania. All pilots were fighter pilots, currently flying the MiG 21 LanceR fighter. Two days after the chamber profile, the pilots volunteered to take the ROBD hypoxia test. The ROBD profile was a two-step (3500m, 7500m) ascent to 7500 m over 3 minutes. The ROBD is a high-grade commercially available medical device, certified for use on humans. The ROBD device software had the ability to perform psychometric testing built in.

RESULTS:
There were generally more symptoms reported in the ROBD. Most recognized symptoms were the mental and motor skills category. Statistically, there were no significant differences for symptoms distribution, p value ranging from 0.06 to 0.6, except for the mental symptom reporting (p=0.018, Z=2,36). Recorded variations in heart rate differed significantly with a Z of 2.80 and a p of 0.004. Recorded oxygen saturation did significantly differ for the two setups, at 7500 meters in chamber and in ROBD with a Z of 2.40 and a p of 0.015.

DISCUSSION:
At debriefing, all pilots reported that it was harder to cope with hypoxia with ROBD than in the chamber. This was borne out by the greater number of symptoms with ROBD. Although air hunger might have been a factor, all the pilots gave negative responses to this issue. Our results give the general impression off adding value for training over the normal altitude chamber training. The ability to take motor coordination skills in the hypoxic environment was most appreciated by pilots. The ROBD simulation managed to drop the oxygen saturation lower than for the chamber for most cases (10 out of 11) with marked effect for some cases. The ROBD training is not without peril. We did not encounter any medical issues with our subjects, both in chamber or on ROBD, but there are case reports in the literature.

CONCLUSION:
Optimal hypoxia training can still be best realized in an altitude chamber. However, ROBD training is a reasonable alternative if costs preclude altitude chamber facilities. Learning Objectives: 1. The participant will be able to figure out the role of a reduced oxygen breathing device in physiological training. 2. The participant will learn of commonly perceived hypoxia symptoms. http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conte...rt00009?crawler=true&mimetype=application/pdf (0.8Mb)
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
This 30 minute editing rool is the pits - just lost a big chunk of formatted text to that rule in above post. BAH HUMBUG.
What I now do is if I have a post that is going to be large, is to do it in Word first and then cut and paste when I'm happy with it. She who must be obeyed was getting annoyed with sailor type cussing :D
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Except that the F-35 is a replacement for our classic Hornets,not the Supers.

oldsig
And the full opertatng capability of the the F-35 is quite some time away anyway. If the F-18G is a essential force multiplier then and additional airframe ....... noting it is just the air frame and engines as spares and equipment are already been paid for (as has support) .... would not be a massive cost in the scheme of things
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
To be fair, we should note hypoxia issues do not involve only F-18(A..G) as the attached link confirms but for what ever reason the SH and Growler seem to get the most press. Again, I haven't seen much on foreign jets with regard to PE. I imagine topics like this were rarely covered pre-Internet. As the USA has so many fighter jets compared to all other nations, their frequency of PE is higher and more visible. Solving this issue is likely going to involve some serious research in basic physiology and how temperature, g-force, pressure, and who knows what else that effect physiology during flight. Contaminates from OBOGS is another item to throw into to the mix.

The Air Force has appointed a general to investigate why pilots keep having trouble breathing in the cockpit
 

SpazSinbad

Active Member
Over the last several years now, since the USN Hornet family became a hot topic regarding PEs, there has been a lot of information about US aircraft with this problem. Other countries have the same issues but we do not get to see their publications - often in a foreign language to boot. I can assure you, as other articles posted here indicate, the PE problem has been with high altitude flight since the beginning; whilst steps have been taken to educate aircrew as revealed by ALL the posts on the internet about these issues. I have absolutely a tonne of information about this because of my interest. Soon it will be amalgamated into one PDF, while some of it is in/will be in my 4.4Gb PDF about the RAN FAA Fixed Wing and associated information.

The USN Flight Safety Magazine APPROACH has a lot of stories, including recent history, about PEs in the Hornet family & other jet aircraft. These issues have been around for a long time but the publicity - quite rightly - has demanded solutions and it seems these are forthcoming. A video from TAILHOOK 2017 with putative Admirable Joyner says a lot about the USN effort. The T-45C instructors going on strike was another big KICK for solutions.

 
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