Republic of Singapore Air Force Discussions

whatsup

New Member
Hi all, agree with what Red posted, my question pertaining to the topic is, how many is the right numbers should the force structure be in Singapore context i.e total numbers of aircraft. With the current decommissioned of Skyhawks and the restructered of the F5E sqdn. I believe the current numbers is down from the time when RSAF had hunters/tigers/skyhawks.

It was also acknowledge by the RSAF that in terms of numbers, RSAF is considered a small force. Should the need arises, the stored Skyhawk could be re-activated, but what are the chances the Skyhawks against 3rd generation fighters in yrs to come?

Yes gf0012, i've stayed near PLAB, many a times seen fighters climd almost vertically after take off, even the Mizawa F15 came visiting.
 

Red

New Member
Hi all, agree with what Red posted, my question pertaining to the topic is, how many is the right numbers should the force structure be in Singapore context i.e total numbers of aircraft. With the current decommissioned of Skyhawks and the restructered of the F5E sqdn. I believe the current numbers is down from the time when RSAF had hunters/tigers/skyhawks.

It was also acknowledge by the RSAF that in terms of numbers, RSAF is considered a small force. Should the need arises, the stored Skyhawk could be re-activated, but what are the chances the Skyhawks against 3rd generation fighters in yrs to come?

Yes gf0012, i've stayed near PLAB, many a times seen fighters climd almost vertically after take off, even the Mizawa F15 came visiting.
I dont remember seeing anywhere where RSAF considers itself a small air force.Over the years, RSAF has maintained around >130-140 plus active combat jets with additional aircraft in reserve storage. That is a larger complement than both the Malaysian and Indonesian air forces combined. Not to mention force multipliers like AEW & C planes. I think numbers may go up slightly in the future if China becomes overbearing.
 

ethanz

New Member
The latest updates from various sources indicate that the total number of F-16s in RSAF active service is 62, not including the 2 that were lost in various crashes and the F-16A/Bs that were transferred to the Royal Thai Air Force. The actual number remained uncertain. The F-15SG strength will be fixed at 24 aircraft as the Mindef are more interested in accquiring the F-35 Lightning II. The Eagles are accquired to provide air-to-ground strike capability while the F-16C/D provide air defence coverage. The F-16D+ are tasked with ground attack and maritime strike duties. With regard to the air defence systems, what I heard of was that Mindef is interested to accquire the patriot PAC-3 missile systems.

The RSAF may pharse out the F-16s if considerable number of the F-35s could be puchased and delivered by 2020. As we can predict, the mainstay of the fighter force would be the F-35 and the F-15SG. I believe that the RSAF would follow the F-16 procument procedures. Purchase a small squadron of the aircraft for overseas training. After a couple of years, when newer variant of the F-35 appears in the market, the RSAF would then accquire the aircraft in numbers, to replace the F-16s.
 

ethanz

New Member
Ops... a little confused. If Singapore's enemy were to use artillery pieces to bombard RSAF installations, than it has to be either from Malaysia coastline or from Bintan and Bataam ? Will the enemy land their troops and artillery pieces on an outlaying island and carry out artillery bombardment? Very unlikely. SAF has weapons locating radars that could be deployed 24-hours to monitor the costal activities to the north, so any build-up of military personnel in the area would be monitored.

Apart from the Japanese successful artillery bombardment of Singapore during their attack on the island, I think that the real, real threat has to be long-range, high altitute bombers that the land-based radars could not detect, and our AA guns and missile systems could not lock on. Other threats include mass attacks by unmanned aerial vehicles and long-range ballastic missile / rocket attacks.

Instead of relying on other peple's technology, should Mindef establish a defence organisation that is delicated to development of weapons technology to counter these threats?

With regard to the Lim Chu Kang road cum runway exercise, does it come to one's mind that in times of war, when airbases are attacked and runways rendered unusable, it is true that aircraft can land and take off from the converted road while the runways are being repaired. But what about parking spaces for landed aircraft and where to carry out re-arming and refuelling of the aircraft? Can the runway support all the 100+ aircraft in RSAF inventory? Where would all the logistic support components required to support the operations located? Should Mindef consider building underground installations and other support faclities near the area that could be used when the road is being converted for military uses. And, when converted for military uses, what is the alternative roads for road users?

Will Mindef consider an underground aircraft storage and support deport for the runway? Aircraft lands and take-off from the road, and when requires re-arming or refuelling, the aircraft will be directed to the underground re-arming deport. Aircraft that is to be parked will be directed to parking deport. This is my idea and it is a very good alternative to protect the aircraft from massed attacks.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Very unlikely. SAF has weapons locating radars that could be deployed 24-hours to monitor the costal activities to the north, so any build-up of military personnel in the area would be monitored.
They do indeed have the capability - and INT is more than just physical sensing - the SIngs have substantial capability to do so. ballistics radars atypically have detection ranges longer than tyhe reach of the system they are monitoring.
 

weasel1962

New Member
Re:

The latest updates from various sources indicate that the total number of F-16s in RSAF active service is 62, not including the 2 that were lost in various crashes and the F-16A/Bs that were transferred to the Royal Thai Air Force. The actual number remained uncertain. The F-15SG strength will be fixed at 24 aircraft as the Mindef are more interested in accquiring the F-35 Lightning II. The Eagles are accquired to provide air-to-ground strike capability while the F-16C/D provide air defence coverage. The F-16D+ are tasked with ground attack and maritime strike duties. With regard to the air defence systems, what I heard of was that Mindef is interested to accquire the patriot PAC-3 missile systems.

The RSAF may pharse out the F-16s if considerable number of the F-35s could be puchased and delivered by 2020. As we can predict, the mainstay of the fighter force would be the F-35 and the F-15SG. I believe that the RSAF would follow the F-16 procument procedures. Purchase a small squadron of the aircraft for overseas training. After a couple of years, when newer variant of the F-35 appears in the market, the RSAF would then accquire the aircraft in numbers, to replace the F-16s.
F-16s are not the only fighters. RSAF also operates about 50+ F-5Es which were upgraded with LGBs, mavericks and a BVR-capable radar which comes up to the 130+ fighters number (in 6 sqns). As mentioned by red, it does not include the far more numerous A-4s (1XX procured) in reserve and which have also been upgraded for both engines, avionics and LGB capability.

The F-5s are actually the target of the impending F-35 replacements rather than the F-16s. A comp for more F-15s is possible.

As the F-16s were only inducted at the end of the 1990s and continued til recently, the anticipated 30 year lifespan will be ~2030-40 before it is due for replacement.

Ops... a little confused. If Singapore's enemy were to use artillery pieces to bombard RSAF installations, than it has to be either from Malaysia coastline or from Bintan and Bataam ? Will the enemy land their troops and artillery pieces on an outlaying island and carry out artillery bombardment? Very unlikely. SAF has weapons locating radars that could be deployed 24-hours to monitor the costal activities to the north, so any build-up of military personnel in the area would be monitored.
Agreed. And its not just weapons locating radars but UAVs capable of long range visual identification of launchers/arty so even before its fired, the RSAF already knows where it is.

Apart from the Japanese successful artillery bombardment of Singapore during their attack on the island, I think that the real, real threat has to be long-range, high altitute bombers that the land-based radars could not detect, and our AA guns and missile systems could not lock on. Other threats include mass attacks by unmanned aerial vehicles and long-range ballastic missile / rocket attacks.
That's the purpose of fighters. To intercept bombers, UAVs. The 2nd line of defence are the SAMs. I-hawks in Singapore service can reach 60,000 feet, enough even to shoot down global hawk UAVs. The I-hawk was actually used by USMC in the ATBM role.

Instead of relying on other peple's technology, should Mindef establish a defence organisation that is delicated to development of weapons technology to counter these threats?
Its called DSO. See www.dso.org.sg

With regard to the Lim Chu Kang road cum runway exercise, does it come to one's mind that in times of war, when airbases are attacked and runways rendered unusable, it is true that aircraft can land and take off from the converted road while the runways are being repaired. But what about parking spaces for landed aircraft and where to carry out re-arming and refuelling of the aircraft? Can the runway support all the 100+ aircraft in RSAF inventory? Where would all the logistic support components required to support the operations located? Should Mindef consider building underground installations and other support faclities near the area that could be used when the road is being converted for military uses. And, when converted for military uses, what is the alternative roads for road users?

Will Mindef consider an underground aircraft storage and support deport for the runway? Aircraft lands and take-off from the road, and when requires re-arming or refuelling, the aircraft will be directed to the underground re-arming deport. Aircraft that is to be parked will be directed to parking deport. This is my idea and it is a very good alternative to protect the aircraft from massed attacks.
There are 2 primary facilities ie fuel and ammo that are housed underground. This will allow a/c to operate from temporary runways which are not very far anyway since Singapore is only a little red dot. All airbases have been hardened. There's no need for further underground storage.

Singapore's airfields are sufficient to operate far more than 100 aircraft. Not surprising since the British operated more than 100 aircraft in the old days from Singapore airfields. Today, it adds Paya Lebar airport which used to service a lot of commercial traffic including a fairly large SIA until it ran out of space.

Read about IFR/VFR runway planning which will give some indication of the ability of runways to sustain sortie rates. Tankers (including KC-135s and KC-130s) allow fighters to maintain air cover for far longer as well. IFR allows 1 a/c to take off from a runway every 2 minutes or less. In 40+ minutes, 1 full sqn can take off and that's not counting utilisation of slipways/alternative runways at Sudong,Changi etc. Most SG airbases can operate at least 2 sqns.

For temporary runway operations, one doesn't need to bring the aircraft to a depot, the depot comes to the aircraft. Otherwise, a/c is vulnerable taxiing to holding areas. Ground tankers carry fuel to the aircraft (Singapore has 500+ in business operations which can requisitioned during wartime). Ammo are palletised which allow heavy trucks called prime movers (18 wheelers in layman terms of which there are over 4000 in commercial use) to carry these to where a/c land and rearm. The RSAF also trains in hot-pit refuelling which means the aircraft doesn't even switch off the engine when refuelling to save time.
 

weasel1962

New Member
Re:

Hi all, agree with what Red posted, my question pertaining to the topic is, how many is the right numbers should the force structure be in Singapore context i.e total numbers of aircraft. With the current decommissioned of Skyhawks and the restructered of the F5E sqdn. I believe the current numbers is down from the time when RSAF had hunters/tigers/skyhawks.

It was also acknowledge by the RSAF that in terms of numbers, RSAF is considered a small force. Should the need arises, the stored Skyhawk could be re-activated, but what are the chances the Skyhawks against 3rd generation fighters in yrs to come?

Yes gf0012, i've stayed near PLAB, many a times seen fighters climd almost vertically after take off, even the Mizawa F15 came visiting.
Force structure should be in the context of the region. When compared to China, Singapore is way out-numbered. When compared to Malaysia, with just 18 suks, 8 hornets, soon to be decom Mig-29s, the RSAF is bigger. The original benchmark was the Vietnamese air force in the 70s and 80s which operated ~200 Mig-21s.

No one will send A-4s against 3rd generation fighters. Using A-4s will allow higher end a/c eg F-15s and F-16s to conduct high-end air superiority missions esp early in a war. If an aggressor cannot sustain continuous air cover eg due to SAM protection etc, A-4s will be able to continue ground attack sorties. Having been upgraded to deliver PGMs, each incremental A-4 sortie can still make a difference. A-4s can perhaps still thrive in a China scenario where the numbers can make a diff.

RSAF operated 5 fighter sqns in the 1970s after the air force was set up, went up to 7 fighter sqn in the 80s and stayed there until recently when 142 sqn got retired and did not get reactivated. Numerical numbers could be affected by the high F-35 price but RSAF don't seem to be interested in employing trainers as low-end temporary interceptors. Personally, can't see the rsaf dropping below 5 sqns.
 

SGMilitary

New Member
Force structure should be in the context of the region. When compared to China, Singapore is way out-numbered. When compared to Malaysia, with just 18 suks, 8 hornets, soon to be decom Mig-29s, the RSAF is bigger. The original benchmark was the Vietnamese air force in the 70s and 80s which operated ~200 Mig-21s.

No one will send A-4s against 3rd generation fighters. Using A-4s will allow higher end a/c eg F-15s and F-16s to conduct high-end air superiority missions esp early in a war. If an aggressor cannot sustain continuous air cover eg due to SAM protection etc, A-4s will be able to continue ground attack sorties. Having been upgraded to deliver PGMs, each incremental A-4 sortie can still make a difference. A-4s can perhaps still thrive in a China scenario where the numbers can make a diff.

RSAF operated 5 fighter sqns in the 1970s after the air force was set up, went up to 7 fighter sqn in the 80s and stayed there until recently when 142 sqn got retired and did not get reactivated. Numerical numbers could be affected by the high F-35 price but RSAF don't seem to be interested in employing trainers as low-end temporary interceptors. Personally, can't see the rsaf dropping below 5 sqns.
I read a report before that plans are underway to procure second batch of 24 F-15SG and industry sources quoted that RSAF will operate 60 F-15SG with 80 being the upper limit.
It was also mentioned that the RSAF will issue RFI for 48 new generation fighter aircraft to replace her fleet of F-5. F-35 and F-15SE are the two rumouredly prefered jets.

There were also unconfirmed information that France is pitching Aster 30 block II missile SAMP-T as replacement for I.HAWK and Star Streak missiles as replacement for RBS 70.

Any updates on all the above?
 

Red

New Member
Singapore has always faced the threat of artillery strikes since her inception. They have not spent the last decades since 1965 building a competent military capability and missed out on that bit(dealing with artillery). How they do it is not in open domain understandably. The airfields can hold more than the RSAF's complement of aircrafts. Much more considering the role Singapore will play in exigencies in the region in concert with allied forces; especially the crucial Straits of Malacca. Not to mention the roads which can be converted to airfields. I think of the main island as a large and unsinkable aircraft carrier.
 

Red

New Member
The latest updates from various sources indicate that the total number of F-16s in RSAF active service is 62, not including the 2 that were lost in various crashes and the F-16A/Bs that were transferred to the Royal Thai Air Force. The actual number remained uncertain
RSAF does not reveal her orbat officially but we have open domain sources.

The total number of F16 Blk 50/52+ RSAF operates is more than 70 actually.

62 Blk 50/52+ purchased plus 12 leased at US(CONUS) Cannon Air Force Base.

Recently, RSAF leased more F16 Blk 50/52. This time, the leased aircrafts will be based at Sringfield Air Force Base - http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2009/Singapore_09-51.pdf

Numbers have not been given but I reckon at least 12-20 more jets would be leased.

Given the newer leased jets, it is likely that RSAF has exercised purchase options on the leased jets at Cannon Air Force Base, especially since RSAF has operated these jets since the late 1990s. RSAF did so for two previous batches of F16 Blk 50/52.

It is also likely that RSAF has or will be stationing these jets in Singapore thereafter since I dont think RSAF will operate from two bases for F16 training in the US.

Hence, RSAF is operating approximately 62 + 12 + 12-20 F16 Blk 50/52+ jets.
 

Red

New Member
As the F-16s were only inducted at the end of the 1990s and continued til recently, the anticipated 30 year lifespan will be ~2030-40 before it is due for replacement.
I seriously doubt RSAF will keep the F16s that long and that they will probably move the latter into reserve storage by then. There were cost concerns in the past(pre 1980s) tied to Singapore's early growth which the RSAF has a much lesser issue now especially since the former Chief of Air Force has indicated a purchase of 3-4 batches of F35s.

I read a report before that plans are underway to procure second batch of 24 F-15SG and industry sources quoted that RSAF will operate 60 F-15SG with 80 being the upper limit.
It was also mentioned that the RSAF will issue RFI for 48 new generation fighter aircraft to replace her fleet of F-5. F-35 and F-15SE are the two rumouredly prefered jets.

There were also unconfirmed information that France is pitching Aster 30 block II missile SAMP-T as replacement for I.HAWK and Star Streak missiles as replacement for RBS 70.
I suggest watching the news after the elections(first 1/4 of this year probably). It seems unlikely the Singapore government will make any announcements on proposed or belated military purchases now.

In one SAF video, the I-HAwk replacement is called the Extended Missile Defence System with an image that resembles a Patriot launcher. Im not sure if that is any indication as per the true replacement of the I-Hawks. There is also the Israeli Stunner missile defence system or David's Sling which the Israelis are integrating into their Syder and Iron Dome and Arrow anti-missile/aircraft and anti-rocket systems.

In the open domain news on the internet which you can check yourselves, Singapore has apparently purchased the Spyder missile system to replace the Rapiers. And speculated to have purchased the Iron Dome anti rocket system with accompanying artillery location radars with the capability to zero-in on the point of origin of enemy artillery fire 100 km away.
 

weasel1962

New Member
Re:

RSAF does not reveal her orbat officially but we have open domain sources.

The total number of F16 Blk 50/52+ RSAF operates is more than 70 actually.

62 Blk 50/52+ purchased plus 12 leased at US(CONUS) Cannon Air Force Base.

Recently, RSAF leased more F16 Blk 50/52. This time, the leased aircrafts will be based at Sringfield Air Force Base - http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2009/Singapore_09-51.pdf

Numbers have not been given but I reckon at least 12-20 more jets would be leased.

Given the newer leased jets, it is likely that RSAF has exercised purchase options on the leased jets at Cannon Air Force Base, especially since RSAF has operated these jets since the late 1990s. RSAF did so for two previous batches of F16 Blk 50/52.

It is also likely that RSAF has or will be stationing these jets in Singapore thereafter since I dont think RSAF will operate from two bases for F16 training in the US.

Hence, RSAF is operating approximately 62 + 12 + 12-20 F16 Blk 50/52+ jets.
RSAF decided to go to Tucson instead of Springfield. Posted this link as a tribute to the brave congresswoman involved in that horrendous attack in Arizona.

U.S. REP. GABRIELLE GIFFORDS WELCOMES DECISION BY SINGAPORE TO TRAIN F-16 PILOTS IN TUCSON | Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, Representing the 8th District of Arizona

Leased a/c does not equate to owned a/c. Its leased for training and returned in most cases. Previously at Luke (also in AZ), RSAF leased blk 15s and then turned in those to have RSAF-owned blk 52s for training there. The 425 operated 12 (6 Cs and 6 Ds). $60m does not afford many leased a/c.

Cannon operated RSAF owned F-16s as well. I think the arrangement is actually similar to the F-15 mountain home training arrangement. RSAF buys, uses them for training in US AFBs before transferring them back to SG. MHAFB operates ~10-12 F-15SGs.
 

Red

New Member
RSAF decided to go to Tucson instead of Springfield. Posted this link as a tribute to the brave congresswoman involved in that horrendous attack in Arizona.

U.S. REP. GABRIELLE GIFFORDS WELCOMES DECISION BY SINGAPORE TO TRAIN F-16 PILOTS IN TUCSON | Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, Representing the 8th District of Arizona

Leased a/c does not equate to owned a/c. Its leased for training and returned in most cases. Previously at Luke (also in AZ), RSAF leased blk 15s and then turned in those to have RSAF-owned blk 52s for training there. The 425 operated 12 (6 Cs and 6 Ds). $60m does not afford many leased a/c.

Cannon operated RSAF owned F-16s as well. I think the arrangement is actually similar to the F-15 mountain home training arrangement. RSAF buys, uses them for training in US AFBs before transferring them back to SG. MHAFB operates ~10-12 F-15SGs.
Thanks for the update on basing Weasel. I think the $75 million is the cost of the program which evidently have to be extended from time to time. RSAF leased 12 F16s previously for $12.3 USD milion for a 2 1/2 year period before purchasing them outright.
 

icekid

New Member
Singapore has the F-15 fighter aircraft chosen for itself that includes advanced supersonic air-to-air missiles and satellite-guided bombs.
The new fighters will replace a squadron of Singapore's aging A4SU Super Skyhawk fighter jets and also the T variant has AESA integrated into the plane . Primarily singapore has always bought from U.S. so the F15 seems the first choice. The F-15C or E would be definetly cheaper than the Eurofighter Typhoon. But not getting the F/A-18E Super Hornet is suprising , maybe it's too expensive for Singapore .
 

Scorpion82

New Member
The Super Hornet is actually cheaper than the Strike Eagle both in terms of procurement and operating costs. I'm not to sure that the F-15 is cheaper than the Typhoon either. But this would require more details. Bids can differ from customer to customer.
 

f14dtomcat

New Member
Singapore has the F-15 fighter aircraft chosen for itself that includes advanced supersonic air-to-air missiles and satellite-guided bombs.
The new fighters will replace a squadron of Singapore's aging A4SU Super Skyhawk fighter jets and also the T variant has AESA integrated into the plane . Primarily singapore has always bought from U.S. so the F15 seems the first choice. The F-15C or E would be definetly cheaper than the Eurofighter Typhoon. But not getting the F/A-18E Super Hornet is suprising , maybe it's too expensive for Singapore .
The RSAF did not procure the F/A-18E/F because it did not suit our operational requirements. Generally speaking, Navy jets have souped up airframes and heavier landing gears to accomodate the extreme stresses of aircraft carrier operations. All that extra weight contributes to decreased range and weapons payload. While not the main reason, the aforementioned two examples did contribute to the 'Bug' dropping out early in the RSAF A4-SU replacement.
 

Red

New Member
The Super Hornet is actually cheaper than the Strike Eagle both in terms of procurement and operating costs. I'm not to sure that the F-15 is cheaper than the Typhoon either. But this would require more details. Bids can differ from customer to customer.
The F15SGs are heavily modified to suit RSAF's needs; including the incorporation of South East Asia's first fighter AESA radars. I think it would be more expensive than a generic Typhoon or Rafale.
 

weasel1962

New Member
Re:

Word on the street then was that Boeing only wanted to submit the F-15 for evaluation but was asked to keep the F-18 in the comp. Boeing was arguing that both a/c was similar (which broadly speaking it is). AESA from the same manufacturer, same set of munitions, JHMCS, sniper pods etc. In fact, the APG-79 is a more mature aesa than the APG-63.

Range was a major consideration. However, the expected range, features and performance of the F-18 was well-known even then so it would have been strange to invite Boeing to participate, ask Boeing to expend resources and then reject on a pretty obvious basis.

Unofficially, a certain neighbour plays a part in wanting to evaluate the F-18E/F. The official excuse was wanting to evaluate all the major fighters at that time.

As to the official reason for the Typhoon drop...
MINDEF - News - Next Fighter Replacement Programme (NFRP) (21 Apr 05)

On hindsight today, the actual production schedule did validate the concerns eg still no AESA today.
 

weasel1962

New Member
Re:

The F15SGs are heavily modified to suit RSAF's needs; including the incorporation of South East Asia's first fighter AESA radars. I think it would be more expensive than a generic Typhoon or Rafale.
By 2004, Boeing already developed the baseline F-15K. The only major modification I can think of for the F-15SG to the F-15K was the development of the APG-63 as an AESA radar. Hence v2.

By Jun 04, the first F-15K was already assembled and delivered in Mar 05 so in that sense, it was pretty low risk and probably a factor in the F-15's selection. Whereas by 2005, if I'm not wrong, tranche 2 production for the typhoon hadn't started so no one knew what would be the production risks.

The F-15K already had the JHMCS + SLAM-ER integrated. Also the tigereyes sensor suite + its EW suite are actually similar. The ADCP software had already integrated multiple targeting. So not that heavily modified.
 
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