Philippine Air Force Discussions and Updates

[AVBsupersonic]

]That depends on the client/user, and not prospective buyers. I agree obsolescence is relative to "the opponent/enemy/belligerent" countered, but in this case, an OV10 Bronco and the SD211 are more than adequate to deal with guerillas and warlords in Mindanao.

An F16 is a luxury few Nations can afford, and I would think that for most third world countries, planes that are cheap and cheerful are an asset for any internal dissent/revolution their air forces may have to deal with. I think money spent on winning hearts and minds is far cheaper than buying F16s that are expensive to fly and maintain.

War and conflict is just an extension of politics. The Separatists have returned to the table, the communists are weak, and the warlords imprisoned. It has been interesting times in Mindanao.

Cheers[/quote]







SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT?
Kfir jets are $7Meach (low maintenance) Introduced 1975
F16= $14-18M each(high maintenance) Introduced 1978
F18= $29M each (high maintenance) 1st flight 1978,introduced 1983

So almost same age for less cost, but as good in performance as others! You can buy (2) Kfirs=1 F16 and (4) Kfirs= 1 F18.....hmmmm.???? Please send this to Philippine Air force and Philippine govt.

What the Philippines need is something like this within their budget... It's a multi role fighter jet at the same time interceptor!! some might say it's old because they prefer the F16S,18s but come to think of it considering it is limited for use to only US ally's, meaning it still is a powerful jet up to now if it goes into the wrong hands, something that the US see as a threat!!!......

3 Squadron (8) =(24) Kfir c10 will command respect even if they have 4.5 gen jets
I think this is what the Philippines needs now for a start! While saving for the best later on, and try to spread the budget for other stuffs like,anti missiles,etc.

ALWAYS REMEMBER THAT FIGHTER JETS PLAYS A BIG ROLE IN EVERY WAR.....IT'S THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY TO DISABLE , PENETRATE AND DESTROY YOUR ENEMY BEFORE THEY ATTACK!
Why do you think of all the weapons of every country why FIGHTER JETS has the most no.? look at US ,CHINA,RUSSIA.........

 

[AVBsupersonic]

Recently the Philippine govt. paid P2.8B for 8 bnew sokol combat helicopters from poland out of the P5.5B yearly budget for PAF, and was trying to purchase a presidential jet worth P1.2B but was cancelled due to issues of complaints.
Now we have some change from the P5.5B budget minus P2.8B = P2.7 add the P1.2B budget (pres.jet)= P3.9B available funds.

P3.9 B= $86,946,822.16 enough to buy ( 10 to 12) Kfir jets for a start!!!!! What are they waiting for????
I think it's the best we can buy that suits our budget, cost and maintenance wise! and are still powerful and can compete w/ other 4.5 gen jets....

 

[fretburner]

Recently the Philippine govt. paid P2.8B for 8 bnew sokol combat helicopters from poland out of the P5.5B yearly budget for PAF, and was trying to purchase a presidential jet worth P1.2B but was cancelled due to issues of complaints.
Now we have some change from the P5.5B budget minus P2.8B = P2.7 add the P1.2B budget (pres.jet)= P3.9B available funds.

P3.9 B= $86,946,822.16 enough to buy ( 10 to 12) Kfir jets for a start!!!!! What are they waiting for????
I think it's the best we can buy that suits our budget, cost and maintenance wise! and are still powerful and can compete w/ other 4.5 gen jets....

Uh... the May 10 Presidential Elections?

The new President will try to find ways to take half of the P3.9B budget to himself, and then the other half to the generals, and end up with no jets.

 

[adroth]

Recently the Philippine govt. paid P2.8B for 8 bnew sokol combat helicopters from poland out of the P5.5B yearly budget for PAF, and was trying to purchase a presidential jet worth P1.2B but was cancelled due to issues of complaints.
Now we have some change from the P5.5B budget minus P2.8B = P2.7 add the P1.2B budget (pres.jet)= P3.9B available funds.

P3.9 B= $86,946,822.16 enough to buy ( 10 to 12) Kfir jets for a start!!!!! What are they waiting for????
I think it's the best we can buy that suits our budget, cost and maintenance wise! and are still powerful and can compete w/ other 4.5 gen jets....

The Sokols were acquired to satisfy goals laid out as part of the first phase of the Capability Upgrade Program. They are needed for the immediate battle, to improve the AFP's transport and mobility condition, and therefore rightly takes precedence over fighter aircraft.

The PN's Multi Purpose Vessel (MPV) is also expected to arrive before MRFs, for the same reason.

There is a lot more to an effective fighter force than just the aircraft.

There is also the issue of operation and maintenance. You have to consider how much it costs to operate the aircraft. See this for details about the prevailing budgetary picture: Philippine defense spending.

There is also the issue of longevity of the airframe. Administrative Order 169 prescribes minimum requirements that 2nd-hand equipment must satisfy to be considered for operational use. These are lessons learned from our bitter experience with 2nd-hand, supposedly refurbished, F-8s. See here for details: Requirements for the acquisition of 2nd-hand equipment

Finally, fighter aircraft are of little use in the absence of a radar network that would guide them to their targets. Both MRFs and radars are addressed as part of the PAF component of the Capability Upgrade Program. You can't have one without the other, which is why the AFP intends to pursue both in tandem.

 

[AVBsupersonic]

Yes no question to the sokols they are badly needed, but I think the MRF's plus radars should be the next on the priority lists than sea vessels. the PAF's fighter jet plays a big role in any country's air space and security against intrusion, it is the first and the quickest to react against any problem of security before a threat reaches a land base. all our military, equipments and bases defences including sea vessels are protected by MRF's, without it they're all a sitting duck targets against enemy MRF's!!!!! and the fact that the PAF not having MRF's is a big no,no! they should have thought about that before they kicked the US bases!!!!!

FIGHTER JETS for PAF a MUST BE FIRST IN PRIORITY LISTS!


p.s.
I saw those MPVessel on another site they are totally rubbish and for me a waste of money! Im sure the package comes with a hidden deal???!! what a waste you think it's more capable of defending a wide area of air land and sea and can respond faster than MRF's??!!!
you see how they're mind works on priorities? it's moneymoney!

 

[Zaphael]

I have to agree with the Kfir assessment. Its cheap, and the version the Israelis sold Columbia are fairly updated with a good Israeli made EL/M-2032 radar. With the Derby and Python 4, it can have pretty decent BVR and good WVR capabilities as well.

Going with the 2nd hand F-16s on the other hand would be slightly more expensive but a good bet on the aircraft's phenomenal reputation as a multirole fighter. Not only have many countries flown it, its has also been constantly upgraded to increase its mission effectiveness.

Whichever it is, both are good jets to consider on a budget, though I'd prefer the F-16 any day. A better reach with AIM-120s being a key consideration when dealing with potential adversaries with weapons of considerable reach as well.

 

[adroth]

You got one thing right, regarding the importance of priorities. Getting one's priorities right is actually the reason why the MPV will precede MRFs.

Here's food for thought. If a house is burning, what will you prioritize first if you could only do one task at a time:

a) Putting out the fire
b) Fixing the perimeter fence to keep looters out

MRFs are external facing, and therefore is analogous to the perimeter fence. What use is fixing the fence if everything you owned has turned to ashes?

The Philippines, today, faces an internal insurgency that shows shades of conventional conflict every 10 years, requiring rapid movement of assets from other relatively peaceful areas to the trouble spots. Every year it faces typhoons that require the transfer of relief goods in large quantities. Its immediate external threat is to its EEZ, which requires a persistent presence on the sea -- the kind that aircraft, by virtue of endurance and speed, cannot provide.

The MPV, and the helicopters it carries, can perform all those missions.

It is for this reason that the navy, particularly the MPV is viewed in the same category as the Sokols. It is also the same reason that 1/4-ton trucks were given priority over armored fighting vehicles. Materiel transports must come first, because they are needed NOW.

MRFs are important. But, in the final analysis, their immediate absence will not endanger the republic the way lack of effective transports will.

the PAF's fighter jet plays a big role in any country's air space and security against intrusion, it is the first and the quickest to react against any problem of security before a threat reaches a land base. all our military, equipments and bases defences including sea vessels are protected by MRF's, without it they're all a sitting duck targets against enemy MRF's!!!!! and the fact that the PAF not having MRF's is a big no,no!

Which is why the PAF is indeed working to acquire MRFs. But even before MRFs are acquired, there are a multitude of other items that have to acquired in advance.

You need Lead-In Fighter Trainers to prepare your pilots to handle the MRFs when they arrive. You need to train your aircraft maintenance crews to handle the new technology that MRFs bring. PAF bases must be prepared accept the MRFs. Radars must be in place.

All the preparatory work is set to happen in the second phase of the Capability Upgrade Program. MRFs are set for the third.

they should have thought about that before they kicked the US bases!!!!!

Don't blame the AFP for this. Blame the politicians.

 

[gforce]

]
SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT?
Kfir jets are $7Meach (low maintenance) Introduced 1975
F16= $14-18M each(high maintenance) Introduced 1978
F18= $29M each (high maintenance) 1st flight 1978,introduced 1983

So almost same age for less cost, but as good in performance as others! You can buy (2) Kfirs=1 F16 and (4) Kfirs= 1 F18.....hmmmm.???? Please send this to Philippine Air force and Philippine govt.

What the Philippines need is something like this within their budget... It's a multi role fighter jet at the same time interceptor!! some might say it's old because they prefer the F16S,18s but come to think of it considering it is limited for use to only US ally's, meaning it still is a powerful jet up to now if it goes into the wrong hands, something that the US see as a threat!!!......

3 Squadron (8) =(24) Kfir c10 will command respect even if they have 4.5 gen jets
I think this is what the Philippines needs now for a start! While saving for the best later on, and try to spread the budget for other stuffs like,anti missiles,etc.

ALWAYS REMEMBER THAT FIGHTER JETS PLAYS A BIG ROLE IN EVERY WAR.....IT'S THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY TO DISABLE , PENETRATE AND DESTROY YOUR ENEMY BEFORE THEY ATTACK!
Why do you think of all the weapons of every country why FIGHTER JETS has the most no.? look at US ,CHINA,RUSSIA.........

You can post this message in Adroth's unofficial Philippine defense website - timawa<dot>net/forum which can be seen by many Philippine Military men and the under secretary of the Philippine Department of Defense but you will definitely get a lot of critics who wants to stay with the S211 and acquire an F16 in the future (the poll there states that the F16 is the champion amongst Timawans).

I too is starting to believe that the KFIR can be the best solution to the Philippine Air Force's needs for a low cost, all-weather and combat-proven air defense interceptor and fast attack plane.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

I too is starting to believe that the KFIR can be the best solution to the Philippine Air Force's needs for a low cost, all-weather and combat-proven air defense interceptor and fast attack plane.

Where else can you get a Mach 2 burning, 6000kg payload carting, modern FCR seeing, DERBY and Python 4 + HMCS shooting fighter at under $20 million a pop??? The Kfir is definitely an excellent platform as long as you get zero hour airframes and a decent price. If however you can find an F-16 Block 30 for a comparable price you'd be crazy to go with an upgraded Mirage 3.

 

[Ananda]

Where else can you get a Mach 2 burning, 6000kg payload carting, modern FCR seeing, DERBY and Python 4 + HMCS shooting fighter at under $20 million a pop??? The Kfir is definitely an excellent platform as long as you get zero hour airframes and a decent price. If however you can find an F-16 Block 30 for a comparable price you'd be crazy to go with an upgraded Mirage 3.

Ozzy just wandering, I know Kfir is much lower cost to acquire than F 16..however how about the logistics for furthe rmaintanance down the road. I don't know for this days onward, having fighters that the production lines already having been stop for some time still a good thing.

Example, TNI AU recently turn back offer from Qatar for Mirage F-1 eventhough it's close to a grant (no acquisitions costs). Reasoning was potential higher and rising maintanance costs.

I know Kfir uses many US components, thus eventhough it's like Mirage, actually it's close to an US aircraft. Still many of the components productions even in Israel already being closed down for some time. How long you can maintain an aircraft like that relly on continue dwindling spare parts sources.

I think for Philipines, they should go for F 16. If they can't found enough budgets to maintain F 16, then perhaps they should wait longger rather than servicing potential money drain like Kfir in the long run.

 

[OPSSG]

Ozzy just wandering, I know Kfir is much lower cost to acquire than F 16..however how about the logistics for furthe rmaintanance down the road. I don't know for this days onward, having fighters that the production lines already having been stop for some time still a good thing.

Example, TNI AU recently turn back offer from Qatar for Mirage F-1 eventhough it's close to a grant (no acquisitions costs). Reasoning was potential higher and rising maintanance costs.

I know Kfir uses many US components, thus eventhough it's like Mirage, actually it's close to an US aircraft. Still many of the components productions even in Israel already being closed down for some time. How long you can maintain an aircraft like that relly on continue dwindling spare parts sources.

I think for Philipines, they should go for F 16. If they can't found enough budgets to maintain F 16, then perhaps they should wait longger rather than servicing potential money drain like Kfir in the long run.

I don't have the answer that you seek (data to compare the operating cost between F-16s and Kfirs) but Taiwan operates both F-16A/Bs and Mirage 2000-5s. According to this DefenseNews report:

"...Taiwan's current inventory comprises 18 fighter squadrons with a nominal strength of 387 fighters of U.S., French and indigenous origins: 145 F-16A/Bs, 126 Indigenous Defense Fighters (IDF), 56 Mirage 2000-5s and 60 F-5E/Fs.

The report notes the F-5s are scheduled for retirement in 2014 and the Mirage fleet suffers from high maintenance costs and chronically low availability rates.

The report indicates the per-flight-hour cost of the Mirage fighter is "more than triple" that of the IDF and "five times" that of the F-16A/B. Though the Mirages comprise only 17 percent of the fighter fleet, their operational costs "consume nearly 59%" of the total operations and maintenance budget. Availability has been as low as 58 percent and pilots now only fly eight-15 hours per month.

The report indicates that within the next five-10 years, Taiwan's fighter strength will drop from 387 to 327 to 271, respectively, as the F-5 and Mirage fighters are phased out..."​

If you believe that report, it would mean that F-16A/Bs are cheaper to operate than Mirage 2000-5s.

 

[Ananda]

If you believe that report, it would mean that F-16A/Bs are cheaper to operate than Mirage 2000-5s.

Preciselly what I Thought also. F-16 now probbaly one of the cheapest 4th gen Aircraft to maintain. Our Air Force official also stated that the cost to maintain F 16 only 27%-30% of SU 27/30.

Philipines should wait for PAF budgets sufficient enough to maintain F 16. I believe Philipines will not have much trouble getting low price on Block 25 F 16 C/D. It's just the availability of the fund to maintain those F 16.

Don't know about unmodiffied F 16 A/B further on though, since from what I read in one of the Air Force Monthly issue (if I'm not mistaken), the F 16 Block, 5, 10, and 15 will be running out of relatively cheap spare parts soon, due to clossing down of spare parts productions lines for those Blocks.

Still with MLU, this supposedly will not be a big problem.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Ozzy just wandering, I know Kfir is much lower cost to acquire than F 16..however how about the logistics for furthe rmaintanance down the road. I don't know for this days onward, having fighters that the production lines already having been stop for some time still a good thing.

There should be J79 parts practically everywhere, but everything else comes from a long shut down IAI production line. I agree the F-16 is going to be much easier to support, though I'm not sure about cost & maintenance man-hours per flight hour rates.

Example, TNI AU recently turn back offer from Qatar for Mirage F-1 eventhough it's close to a grant (no acquisitions costs). Reasoning was potential higher and rising maintanance costs.

I know Kfir uses many US components, thus eventhough it's like Mirage, actually it's close to an US aircraft. Still many of the components productions even in Israel already being closed down for some time. How long you can maintain an aircraft like that relly on continue dwindling spare parts sources.

TNI-AU is probably a bad example; they have had a horrible time keeping anything operational. IIRC even their Hawk-200 fleet is barely airworthy. But the Mirage F1 is comparable to the Kfir in terms of a long closed production line and a finite number of spares.

I'm not sure how much of the Kfir is actually close to a US aircraft apart from the engine, all of the avionics and weapons are Israeli built.

I think for Philipines, they should go for F 16. If they can't found enough budgets to maintain F 16, then perhaps they should wait longger rather than servicing potential money drain like Kfir in the long run.

I'm not sure if the Kfir (a zero hour Kfir) would be that much more expensive to support rather than simply more difficult. AFAIK (and I stand to be corrected on this) the problem the RAAF had with supporting the Pig wasn’t the availability of spares (even though the production line had been shut down for decades) it was the state of the airframes. You could feasibly support a low hour Pig, if you really wanted to. However I'm sure the availability rates of a Kfir would be inferior to an equivalent F-16.

Look if they could even come close to affording an F-16 it seems like a no brainer to me. However, if you could be confident supporting the airframe the Kfir 2000 is a bargain.

 

[swerve]

TNI-AU is probably a bad example; they have had a horrible time keeping anything operational. IIRC even their Hawk-200 fleet is barely airworthy. But the Mirage F1 is comparable to the Kfir in terms of a long closed production line and a finite number of spares. .

Mirage F1 is still in AdlA service, & critical spares are still made. Original suppliers* are involved in the Moroccan Mirage F1 upgrade, which is being marketed to other countries.

*Sagem, Thales, Snecma as a subcontractor - & it's in the same group as Sagem. That's the engine & avionics fully covered.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Mirage F1 is still in AdlA service, & critical spares are still made. Original suppliers* are involved in the Moroccan Mirage F1 upgrade, which is being marketed to other countries.

*Sagem, Thales, Snecma as a subcontractor - & it's in the same group as Sagem. That's the engine & avionics fully covered.

I stand corrected!

 

[SGMilitary]

I stand corrected!

The F-16 will be a more cost effective solution for PAF. Start will a small number 1st, possible of 12 + 12 more within the next 2 years.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

The F-16 will be a more cost effective solution for PAF. Start will a small number 1st, possible of 12 + 12 more within the next 2 years.

I still think that’s debatable (that F-16 will prove more cost effective than Kfir) especially with a small fleet. Again I'd wager the acquisition cost would be significantly cheaper for lower hour (refurbished) airframes. All of the Avionics in the Kfir 2000 (EL/M-2032 ect) are brand spanking new and still in production, the J-79 should be almost as easy to support as the F-100 given the number of spares out there. These are the most maintenance intensive parts of the platform; IAI should have reasonable stocks of the other parts. They are supporting a moderate Kfir fleet out there right now after all.

Additionally you may actually get more capability (or at least more options) out of a Kfir 2000 than an F-16 block 25 or 30 (more FCR operating modes including SAR & I'd wager has better T&D performance over the baseline AN/APG-68, HOBS+HMCS, better cockpit with MFD's ect). I'm sure IAI would provide you with a further development path for the platform too, EL/M-2052, Python-5 ect.

I guess summing up the F-16 may be cheaper to support, but I'm not sure that would offset the additional acquisition cost for something that provides comparable capability. Additionally maintenance man-hours per flight hour may actually be lower for zero hour Kfir's than a 3000+ hour F-16C Block 30. All this has to be considered.

 

[gforce]

The F-16 will be a more cost effective solution for PAF. Start will a small number 1st, possible of 12 + 12 more within the next 2 years.

12 is enough for the PAF since they will still rely much on their OV10 Broncos and MG520 helicopter gunships plus the newer Sokol CUH (in the near future) for ground attack . The F16 might end up being dedicated primarily for Air Defense which the current S211 trainer jet is tasked to do, and also 4 for the popular Blue Diamonds.

How about the MiG23?

 

[Ananda]

How about the MiG23?

Why you want PAF to maintain something that everybody else trying to get rid off ?

 

[gforce]

Why you want PAF to maintain something that everybody else trying to get rid off ?

I am not... I am actually just gathering opinion about the MiG23 as the PAF's MRF.

I am more inclined with the KFIR, the Panavia Tornado, the Harrier (my favorite), and may be the F16.