New Zealand Army

[Kiwigov]

Not certain but I seem to remember hearing that PTSU have been using a civvy a/c & pilot for some time, as required, with Hercs used where warranted!?! Could this possibly just be a case of putting something more formal in place?!!

They've been using a civi system for some years for the PTSU - I well recall checking out 'their' BN Islander at the Wings over Wairarapa show ten years ago, and trying (unsuccessfully) to wheedle a jump out of it along with other members of Wellington Skydivers. All for the best, as it turned out - we did our display from a Hughes 500 in the morning, and the scheduled KiwiBlue display in the arvo was weathered out! Burrnnnn....

 

[40 deg south]

A minor note, but I noticed something I hadn't seen before browsing the Shepherd Media website.

As with Janes, non-subscribers get the opening paras of most reports, while only the paying customers get the rest. This piece on the Steyr replacement ends with two intriguing words - 'Fourteen companies..'

NZ pushes ahead with rifle replacement - News - Shephard

If this is the number of respondents to the tender, it will certainly make for an interesting comparison.

 

[ADMk2]

Because a truck mounted gun or howitzer would be limited to roads. A tracked 155mm is not and a turreted one can traverse which again on a truck they would have issues. A LAV type vehicle wouldn't take a 155mm gun or howitzer. 105mm is about the max and it is not turreted so to traverse the gun you have to move the whole vehicle. It's limitations that create problems in the field.

A wheeled SPG, something like the Caesar of Bofors examples, would have the same off-road capability that your gun tractors have now. What they offer is increased crew protection, firepower and responsiveness (ie: quicker into action) compared to operating a towed gun.

The downside is you lose air mobility capability, unless the gun could be made 'modular' ie: can be employed from it's own vehicle or as an airmobile light gun as required, but I imagine the engineering requirements for that, would be extraordinarily expensive...

The vehicle requirements are the same (still require resupply vehicle support etc) because you need a gun tractor for a towed gun and the mobility would be more or less the same.

 

[kiwi in exile]

Nov issue of APDR is online (register for a free read).
There is an article about the selection of Supacat HMT Mk 2 Extenda as the ADF spec ops vehicle. Interesting that some will be equipped with a Konigsberg RWS.
Heres a link to with photos of RWS fitted to Supacat from the supacat website.
Supacat Demonstrates Jackal ISTAR - Supacat
Does anyone know the outcome of the recent 'battle lab' testing of a RWS pin a Pinz? I'm a fan of the mast mounted sensors.

Given that new special forces vehicles are in the pipeline for NZ I wonder if we will go down the same path. Reassuringly, the text mentions that the Supacat vehicle has mine protection, so it's already an improvement on the Pinz we currently have. It's already in use with the UK.

And, no I don't work for or have shares in Konigsberg/Supacat

 

[RegR]

Nov issue of APDR is online (register for a free read).
There is an article about the selection of Supacat HMT Mk 2 Extenda as the ADF spec ops vehicle. Interesting that some will be equipped with a Konigsberg RWS.
Heres a link to with photos of RWS fitted to Supacat from the supacat website.
Supacat Demonstrates Jackal ISTAR - Supacat
Does anyone know the outcome of the recent 'battle lab' testing of a RWS pin a Pinz? I'm a fan of the mast mounted sensors.

Given that new special forces vehicles are in the pipeline for NZ I wonder if we will go down the same path. Reassuringly, the text mentions that the Supacat vehicle has mine protection, so it's already an improvement on the Pinz we currently have. It's already in use with the UK.

And, no I don't work for or have shares in Konigsberg/Supacat

I find it interesting a remote weapon system on an open top vehicle such as this as it is more suited to an under armour/cover type set up to eliminate gunner exposure, not quite as relevant for this type of vehicle although every bit of cover helps I suppose and the added optics screen/mast will no doubt be of great use.

I would assume we would go with supacat for commonality with a few of our closest allies and surely ticks the right boxes with SF, 9-10 4x4s and 3-4 6x6s (to 1 for 1 the current fleet) would be good or better yet all extenda variants to chop and change as required.

The current SOVs can then be distributed to the recon elements at the BNs and/or QAMR, win win really.

 

[Gracie1234]

Is there a plan to procure a recon vehicle for QAMR and the BNs? QAMR could modify 'surplus' LAVs with an appropraite sensor suite.

What are the requirements?

 

[ngatimozart]

A wheeled SPG, something like the Caesar of Bofors examples, would have the same off-road capability that your gun tractors have now. What they offer is increased crew protection, firepower and responsiveness (ie: quicker into action) compared to operating a towed gun.

The downside is you lose air mobility capability, unless the gun could be made 'modular' ie: can be employed from it's own vehicle or as an airmobile light gun as required, but I imagine the engineering requirements for that, would be extraordinarily expensive...

The vehicle requirements are the same (still require resupply vehicle support etc) because you need a gun tractor for a towed gun and the mobility would be more or less the same.

Some wheeled SPG examples that I have found.
Archer 155-mm self-propelled gun-howitzer BAE Systems and Kongsberg Sweden

Porcupine Prototype 155-mm self-propelled howitzer Iveco and OTO-Melara Italy

M777 155-mm self-propelled howitzer BAE UK

Ceasar 155-mm self-propelled gun-howitzer GIAT France

M1128 Stryker Mobile Gun System 105-mm fire support vehicle USA

Maneuver Combat Vehicle 105-mm fire support vehicle Japan

Centauro B1 Tank destroyer 105mm gun Fiat and OTO Melara Italy. I think this is out of production now.

Whilst 155mm may to some seem to be the way to go, 105 can still be effective and IMHO the one I think has the most promise for NZ Army if we went down the 8x8 SPG route is the Japanese MCV. My 2 cents worth.

 

[RegR]

Is there a plan to procure a recon vehicle for QAMR and the BNs? QAMR could modify 'surplus' LAVs with an appropraite sensor suite.

What are the requirements?

I'm pretty sure they just have a few standard LAV in the recon role with probably just a bigger set of binos and an extra radio knowing our cheap govt, any tankies on here would know for sure. WMR also has the armoured pinz for TF mounted recon.

 

[RegR]

Some wheeled SPG examples that I have found.
Archer 155-mm self-propelled gun-howitzer BAE Systems and Kongsberg Sweden

Porcupine Prototype 155-mm self-propelled howitzer Iveco and OTO-Melara Italy

M777 155-mm self-propelled howitzer BAE UK

Ceasar 155-mm self-propelled gun-howitzer GIAT France

M1128 Stryker Mobile Gun System 105-mm fire support vehicle USA

Maneuver Combat Vehicle 105-mm fire support vehicle Japan

Centauro B1 Tank destroyer 105mm gun Fiat and OTO Melara Italy. I think this is out of production now.

Whilst 155mm may to some seem to be the way to go, 105 can still be effective and IMHO the one I think has the most promise for NZ Army if we went down the 8x8 SPG route is the Japanese MCV. My 2 cents worth.

I do like the archer system Ngati, could fit in with our wheeled policy as well, saw a piece on it on future weapons and seemed the business although I guess still in its infancy comparatively so all those associated problems to be had. Did not realise it was 155 either maybe could produce a 105 version cheaper? Would probably be too cost prohibitive for our pollies likings regardless.

 

[Waylander]

You are aware that the Stryker MGS, MCV and Centauro are wheeled fire support/tank hunter vehicles?

They have nothing in common with wheeled SPGS except the wheels.

 

[ngatimozart]

You are aware that the Stryker MGS, MCV and Centauro are wheeled fire support/tank hunter vehicles?

They have nothing in common with wheeled SPGS except the wheels.

Yep, I saw that, but they are 105mm which we use at the moment with our L118 Light Gun. Since our infantry are light infantry using NZLAVs, the MCV or The Stryker MGS could be used as fire support for the infantry. Going to the 155mm would entail a calibre with all that that would involve. If the Army did decide to go to the M777 then the M777 Portee would've been just about ideal but that was cancelled in 2007. Problem with the M777 in a NZ context is that it would have to be partially broken down in order for it to be lifted by helicopter because it is about 200kgs over the 3,200kg external lifting capacity that the RNZAF HTU has set for their NH90s. Not a humungously major issue but it does impact upon the set up time.

 

[kiwi in exile]

Yep, I saw that, but they are 105mm which we use at the moment with our L118 Light Gun. Since our infantry are light infantry using NZLAVs, the MCV or The Stryker MGS could be used as fire support for the infantry. Going to the 155mm would entail a calibre with all that that would involve. If the Army did decide to go to the M777 then the M777 Portee would've been just about ideal but that was cancelled in 2007. Problem with the M777 in a NZ context is that it would have to be partially broken down in order for it to be lifted by helicopter because it is about 200kgs over the 3,200kg external lifting capacity that the RNZAF HTU has set for their NH90s. Not a humungously major issue but it does impact upon the set up time.

But if we were just talking about adopting a SPG, then our inability to sling a M777 is irrelevant.

 

[kiwi in exile]

The current SOVs can then be distributed to the recon elements at the BNs and/or QAMR, win win really.

Given that they are based on Pinz I would rather we didn't. Not a fan of using the Pinz in combat. Would rather buy some extra supacats if that is the direction we take.
I know we have a lot of big spends coming up but in an ideal world we would be replacing the Pinzgauers sooner rather than later. Busmasters would be my choice.

 

[ngatimozart]

But if we were just talking about adopting a SPG, then our inability to sling a M777 is irrelevant.

No really because if we were to go to a 155mm SPG then it'd make sense to go to the M777 howitzer instead of sticking with the 105mm. Far less logistical headaches in the field. Then slinging a M777 become very important. I was just stating that as an issue that would have to be considered IF a 155mm SPG was ever considered. Don't forget this discussion is entirely hypothetical.

Given that they are based on Pinz I would rather we didn't. Not a fan of using the Pinz in combat. Would rather buy some extra supacats if that is the direction we take.
I know we have a lot of big spends coming up but in an ideal world we would be replacing the Pinzgauers sooner rather than later. Busmasters would be my choice.

There is nothing wrong with the Pinzs. It's when we went adapting them for a role to which they weren't designed that we had problems. Yes maybe worthwhile the NZSFs having a really good look at the Supacats.

 

[Cadredave]

Given that they are based on Pinz I would rather we didn't. Not a fan of using the Pinz in combat. Would rather buy some extra supacats if that is the direction we take.
I know we have a lot of big spends coming up but in an ideal world we would be replacing the Pinzgauers sooner rather than later. Busmasters would be my choice.

The only Unit who will be getting a new vehicle are the specials in Papakura what they are getting only they will know if I was a betting man ill place money on Jackal, every one else will have to make do with what we currently have. With a big spend up on B Class fleet there is no more money in the bank for Bushmasters that ship has well and truly sailed.

CD

 

[RegR]

The only Unit who will be getting a new vehicle are the specials in Papakura what they are getting only they will know if I was a betting man ill place money on Jackal, every one else will have to make do with what we currently have. With a big spend up on B Class fleet there is no more money in the bank for Bushmasters that ship has well and truly sailed.

CD

Is the mooted sale of the 35 'excess' NZLAV still going ahead? If so I would rather see those funds go back into like capability and not into govt coffers then we could maybe get 35 bushies for 35 LAV?

The 60 armoured pinz also need addressing as at the moment they are very limited indeed both operationally and capability wise and therefore realistically only suited to certain ops, not ideal. The soft skin versions are good at what they do and where they go.

Agreed there is no spare cash lying around so we will need to get creative for any extras.

 

[Cadredave]

Is the mooted sale of the 35 'excess' NZLAV still going ahead? If so I would rather see those funds go back into like capability and not into govt coffers then we could maybe get 35 bushies for 35 LAV?

The 60 armoured pinz also need addressing as at the moment they are very limited indeed both operationally and capability wise and therefore realistically only suited to certain ops, not ideal. The soft skin versions are good at what they do and where they go.

Agreed there is no spare cash lying around so we will need to get creative for any extras.

Hey Reg no buyers at the moment if they do sell them you can bet your bottom dollar that money will go to fund another capability most probably in the other services hopefully not...Ill prefer the money to be spent or saved towards the MLU for the LAVs.

CD

 

[Reaver]

The only Unit who will be getting a new vehicle are the specials in Papakura what they are getting only they will know if I was a betting man ill place money on Jackal, every one else will have to make do with what we currently have. With a big spend up on B Class fleet there is no more money in the bank for Bushmasters that ship has well and truly sailed.

CD

CD, your comment that only the SAS know what they are getting is not correct. The SOV replacement is currently one of the individual projects contained within the Land Transport Capability Program (LTCP) that CAP Br are running (MHOV being another). As with all NZDF/MoD projects the customers (i.e. SAS & COMLOG for the SOV) will have a set of requirements that the Project team will develop into a RFT then downselected via a BC then a finally a Acquisition Contract to purchase a capability that will be Intoduced into Service.

Unless there is a Urgent Operational Requirement all Projects follow this process, even for the "specials"

I can assure you that there is plenty of money in the LTCP funding line of the Defence Capital Plan to allow for the purchase of a LOV replacement, but it is way to early in the process to be talking about what specific makes/models (Bushmaster or something else) will meet the LOV user requirement.

 

[RobWilliams]

No really because if we were to go to a 155mm SPG then it'd make sense to go to the M777 howitzer instead of sticking with the 105mm. Far less logistical headaches in the field?

Still a massive headache however, in the Falklands the figures were something like to lift a gun battery and 500 rounds per gun (enough for one average battle, apparently) took something like 8 medium helicopters doing 11 lifts each.

Kind of makes me appreciate rotary lift capacity a bit more.

 

[kiwi in exile]

I can assure you that there is plenty of money in the LTCP funding line of the Defence Capital Plan to allow for the purchase of a LOV replacement, but it is way to early in the process to be talking about what specific makes/models (Bushmaster or something else) will meet the LOV user requirement.

If this is correct this is good news.

I find it interesting a remote weapon system on an open top vehicle such as this as it is more suited to an under armour/cover type set up to eliminate gunner exposure, not quite as relevant for this type of vehicle although every bit of cover helps I suppose and the added optics screen/mast will no doubt be of great use.

The sensors that come with a RWS can only be a benefit. My understanding is that the RWS weapons/sensor combo means more accurate shooting at longer range than the standard ring mount. Intergrated laser designator.