New Coronavirus threat

tonnyc

Active Member
Don't bother giving Atlantic Realm the benefit of the doubt. Look at his posting history. He is not someone who joins our group wanting to talk about defense matters and then talking about current events such as the coronavirus pandemic. He is an account specifically created to spread misinformation about the coronavirus. Look at the way he copy-pasted the exact same post at the same exact time on two different threads. That is not a person. It's a bot.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Look at his posting history. He is not someone who joins our group wanting to talk about defense matters and then talking about current events such as the coronavirus pandemic. He is an account specifically created to spread misinformation about the coronavirus.
8. The Moderators have banned Atlantic Realm in the interim pending a decision on his long term fate in DT. Poor management of COVID-19 risks is resulting in 73,000 new cases in America — with the rate of increase rising. Denial and refusal to recognise risk is killing Americans at a record rate. On 24 Oct 2020, the number of new coronavirus infections in America at 77,640 is greater than the total number of infections in many countries.

9. Unlike idiots like US President Donald Trump and members of his administration who earlier refused to wear masks or touted the use of hydroxychloroquine (an anti-malarial drug) for the coronavirus, medicines like remdesivir and dexamethasone are proven effective at clinical trials. Dexamethasone, a commonly used corticosteroid, helps to dampen inflammation, as patients can develop severe disease due to overwhelming inflammation in the body that is triggered by the viral infection.

10. Singapore’s National Centre for Infectious Diseases (NCID), a purpose built 500 bed facility, collaborated with Gilead and the United States' National Institutes of Health for the remdesivir clinical trials.

(a) Explaining how the drugs work, Dr Lee Tau Hong, 39 said that remdesivir is an anti-viral agent that acts directly on the SARS-CoV-2 – the virus that causes COVID-19 – thus reducing the harmful effects of the disease — remdesivir shortened the average length of stay in the ICU for patients on the study.​

(b) "Eventually, we were proven right with the official release of the trial results, which showed remdesivir to be the first drug with proven efficacy against SARS-CoV-2," Dr Ray Lin Junhao, 37, an infectious disease consultant at Tan Tock Seng Hospital and NCID said.​
And guess what ? You’ve been breathing Covid all year ... and you’re still alive!
11. As with the other misinformation about the coronavirus you try to peddle, this is also factually untrue. Risk can be managed, even as the economy is being progressively opened up for business again. For example, Singapore will pilot pre-event testing from mid-October to December to identify a model that can be widely implemented so that more large-scale events can safely resume, announced Minister for Health Gan Kim Yong on Tuesday (Oct 20).

(a) This means that participants going to an event or activity will be tested either at the event venue or at a separate testing facility, and only participants who have tested negative in these Antigen rapid tests (ARTs) will be allowed to participate in the event.​

(b) Although polymerase chain reaction (PCR) tests are currently used as the “definitive test” for confirming COVID-19 cases, the results take about one to two days, which is not feasible for pre-event testing.​

(c) The ART results will be valid for 24 hours from the time of the swab, and it must be valid at the point of entry until the end of the event, said MOH.​

12. Broadly, two modes of transmission of COVID-19 exist—direct and indirect.

(i) The direct mode includes (a) transmission via aerosols formed via surgical and dental procedures and/or in the form of respiratory droplet nuclei; (b) other body fluids and secretions, for example, feces, saliva, urine, semen, and tears; and (c) mother-to-child.​

(ii) Indirect transmission may occur via (a) fomites or surfaces (e.g., furniture and fixtures) present within the immediate environment of an infected patient and (b) objects used on the infected person (e.g., stethoscope or thermometer).​
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
12. As with the other misinformation about the coronavirus you try to peddle, this is also factually untrue. Broadly, two modes of transmission of COVID-19 exist—direct and indirect.

(i) The direct mode includes (a) transmission via aerosols formed via surgical and dental procedures and/or in the form of respiratory droplet nuclei; (b) other body fluids and secretions, for example, feces, saliva, urine, semen, and tears; and (c) mother-to-child.​

(ii) Indirect transmission may occur via (a) fomites or surfaces (e.g., furniture and fixtures) present within the immediate environment of an infected patient and (b) objects used on the infected person (e.g., stethoscope or thermometer).​
There is potentially a third mode of transmission, as there have now been a number of instances where frozen food packaging has tested positive for viable SARS-CoV-2 viruses. Not viewed as a major risk at present, based off the number of positives (22) vs. the # of frozen food packages tested (670,000 samples IIRC) and at present it seems unknown how the virus cultures ended up on the frozen cod packaging, but it is another thing to be mindful of.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #644
Clearly, free and open societies haven’t been doing well against COVID with a few notable exceptions. Poor leadership is partly to blame along with populations with a significant number of Darwin Award contenders.

In addition to poor leadership, the US also has this stupidity to deal with, not sure how difficult $hit-canning a federal court judge is? Mind you I am not a fan of holy rollers so maybe this is gene pool improvement.
Two Colorado churches win lawsuit against state's Covid-19 mask and crowd limit requirements
Two Colorado churches win lawsuit against state's Covid-19 mask and crowd limit requirements
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Clearly, free and open societies haven’t been doing well against COVID with a few notable exceptions. Poor leadership is partly to blame along with populations with a significant number of Darwin Award contenders.

In addition to poor leadership, the US also has this stupidity to deal with, not sure how difficult $hit-canning a federal court judge is? Mind you I am not a fan of holy rollers so maybe this is gene pool improvement.
Two Colorado churches win lawsuit against state's Covid-19 mask and crowd limit requirements
Two Colorado churches win lawsuit against state's Covid-19 mask and crowd limit requirements
Well it's their constitution @John Fedup and since they want to live by the absolute word of it and a Bible sobeit. As we say in the pussers, not our part of ship. May I suggest that you start campaigning your illustrious great leader to build a wall and get the yanks to pay for it.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #646
Well it's their constitution @John Fedup and since they want to live by the absolute word of it and a Bible sobeit. As we say in the pussers, not our part of ship. May I suggest that you start campaigning your illustrious great leader to build a wall and get the yanks to pay for it.
Junior can’t get a relatively short pipeline built. How could he manage a 5000 mile wall? Don’t think the yanks have to worry about any payments any time soon.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Clearly, free and open societies haven’t been doing well against COVID with a few notable exceptions. Poor leadership is partly to blame along with populations with a significant number of Darwin Award contenders.

In addition to poor leadership, the US also has this stupidity to deal with, not sure how difficult $hit-canning a federal court judge is? Mind you I am not a fan of holy rollers so maybe this is gene pool improvement.
Two Colorado churches win lawsuit against state's Covid-19 mask and crowd limit requirements
Two Colorado churches win lawsuit against state's Covid-19 mask and crowd limit requirements
Poor leadership would imply that there has been any leadership. From the outside it looks like the US is one step away from being a failed state. Regardless of who wins Tuesday you will have around half the population ready to take up arms. The Chinese must be gloating over what they would see as the imminent failure of democracy.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
The White House is pushing back after Dr. Anthony Fauci, the nation’s leading infectious disease expert, said the United States is in a terrible position to face the upcoming months of the pandemic. A White House spokesman called Fauci’s remarks “unacceptable.”

I don’t understand, often times, Dr. Anthony Fauci is the only adult in the room.
The biggest public health challenge in the United States is that these policies are largely implemented at the state and local level; so we can’t blame everything on the White House. The federal government has financial resources and can help set the tone, but it is ultimately up to these state governments to decide what makes sense for them. This is precisely where many of the problems with America’s Covid-19 response emerge – and that is because of how public health has become a partisan issue.
The Chinese must be gloating over what they would see as the imminent failure of democracy.
The CCP sees both risks and opportunities arising WITH a Trump Presidency that may stretch into a second term. In the short term, US allies are able to deter China; but I think in the mid-to-long term, we, in Asia, have to figure out a way to move forward without the American leadership, even if Biden wins.

In this election, Trump is both an incumbent and an underdog.The Economist thinks Mr Biden is "very likely" to beat Mr Trump while FiveThirtyEight , a political analysis website, sees Mr Biden as "favoured" to win the election but says the president could still come out on top.

I hope sanity resumes in America after this 2020 election but the signs are not promising. It may take awhile for the Nov 3 election results to come in.

That period of time between voting and results is especially vulnerable to attack, by foreign countries, like Russia that seek to spread disinformation and undermine the legitimacy of the American electoral process. Some Americans are definitely nervous — US gun sales reach record highs in 2020 amid COVID-19, civil unrest (NYPost).
 
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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
The biggest public health challenge in the United States is that these policies are largely implemented at the state and local level; so we can’t blame everything on the White House. The federal government has financial resources and can help set the tone, but it is ultimately up to these state governments to decide what makes sense for them. This is precisely where many of the problems with America’s Covid-19 response emerge – and that is because of how public health has become a partisan issue.
I wanted to clear something up here. At present, public health policy regarding the COVID-19 response is largely being decided on and set at the state level, however that is not how it has to be, since the Federal gov't has the authority to establish national policies. My take on this is that the states and local gov't has been making policy to fill the vacuum left by a lack of national policy. A lack of national policy would be IMO a failure on the part of the Executive branch, which would lead back to the White House.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I wanted to clear something up here. At present, public health policy regarding the COVID-19 response is largely being decided on and set at the state level, however that is not how it has to be, since the Federal gov't has the authority to establish national policies. My take on this is that the states and local gov't has been making policy to fill the vacuum left by a lack of national policy. A lack of national policy would be IMO a failure on the part of the Executive branch, which would lead back to the White House.
I agree with OPSSG that the fractured response to COVID in the US can be blamed on the Public Health organisation.
This overarching organisation is detailed here https://www.nhpf.org/library/background-papers/BP77_GovPublicHealth_08-18-2010.pdf
For those without time to read the whole I offer a few fundamental quotes:
“Legally and traditionally states are the primary authority for Public Health”
“Federal funds are mainly awarded to specific projects” but make up about half of state funding.
“Federal policies influence but do not dictate state and local health practices”
“The broad flexibility states have in defining the public health role has led to highly varied and fragmented government health infrastructure”
“State governments play a pivotal role in planning for public health emergencies”
“States are to coordinate their efforts with the CDC”
“States regulate all public health authorities”

There has been much comment by both sides of politics during this pandemic and it has been the sole topic used against the incumbent however, from the above you can see that the executive is pretty limited in responding to the issue despite the commentary.
Moral leadership however is a different question.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #651
...or put another way, the states could be considered as players on the healthcare team that might not understand the game plan but a good coach can correct that. When great sports team organizations lose the big game, whose job is usually at risk?
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
...or put another way, the states could be considered as players on the healthcare team that might not understand the game plan but a good coach can correct that. When great sports team organizations lose the big game, whose job is usually at risk?
To expand your sport analogy, unfortunately all the states are on two opposing teams!
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I agree with OPSSG that the fractured response to COVID in the US can be blamed on the Public Health organisation.
This overarching organisation is detailed here https://www.nhpf.org/library/background-papers/BP77_GovPublicHealth_08-18-2010.pdf
For those without time to read the whole I offer a few fundamental quotes:
“Legally and traditionally states are the primary authority for Public Health”
“Federal funds are mainly awarded to specific projects” but make up about half of state funding.
“Federal policies influence but do not dictate state and local health practices”
“The broad flexibility states have in defining the public health role has led to highly varied and fragmented government health infrastructure”
“State governments play a pivotal role in planning for public health emergencies”
“States are to coordinate their efforts with the CDC”
“States regulate all public health authorities”

There has been much comment by both sides of politics during this pandemic and it has been the sole topic used against the incumbent however, from the above you can see that the executive is pretty limited in responding to the issue despite the commentary.
Moral leadership however is a different question.
There are a few issues I have with the paper linked which I suspect has left people with an incorrect understanding of who can do/does what regarding US public health.

Firstly, the paper is specifically about state/local public health departments, or their responsible agencies that have a public health role (as many places an agency or department might have multiple roles which might or might not touch on public health). The important bit about this though is that the paper does not address either the powers or role of the Federal gov't in public health.

Secondly, and this I suspects relates to the first, is that the paper itself is a bit dated, having been put out in August, 2010 which was not long after the PPACA or ACA (more commonly known as Obamacare) passed into law, but several years prior to major provisions of the law coming into effect. It was also just after end of the 2009 'swine flu' outbreak yet before a number of the lessons learned could be determined, and several years before another bad US flu season/epidemic in 2012-2013 where yet more lessons were learned. IIRC examples would be FEMA's Emergency Management Institute (EMI) courses IS-520 and IS-522 which were both updated following lessons learned. These courses deal with continuity operations for pandemic influenzas and pandemics respectively.

Thirdly, the organization that released the paper was located on K Street in DC, which is primarily known as a centre for lobbying. Not sure if the group was involved as a lobbying organization as the National Health Policy Forum closed down 1 April, 2016 but it is the sort of thing which would have made me inclined to double check assertions made about the role the Federal depart. HHS and it's subsidiaries like the NIH, CDC, FDA, PHS, etc. could play.

One of the key factors that I suspect people might not be aware of is the relationship between between the various public health organizations in the US, as well as the more or less general responsibilities of the organizations, as well as some of the Federal non-public health agencies that have roles and responsibilities in national emergencies and disaster response.

If people are interested, I can provide some specific examples which come to mind as being both problematic and Federal in nature.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
United States COVID-19 cases — 9,277,955

According to the COVID Tracking Project, the United States has 9,277,955 confirmed COVID-19 cases at a nation wide level (and at a state level, it depends on the Governor). As of 2 Nov 2020, the states with the highest number of COVID-19 cases is either California or Texas.

Texas936,816
California936,144
Florida807,412
New York509,735
Illinois423,527
Georgia361,982
North Carolina276,692
Tennessee261,426
Arizona247,473
New Jersey239,629
Wisconsin228,862
Ohio219,000
Pennsylvania214,416
Michigan197,406
Alabama193,985
Missouri188,325
Louisiana183,341
Virginia182,392

Whoever wins the 2020 Presidential elections, they will inherit this mess. States who fail to follow the science and mask up with soon be hitting the leader boards.

The Governor of NY, for example is doing a decent job, in particular, see: New York “Micro-Cluster” Strategy October 21, 2020 Executive Summary.
 
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tonnyc

Active Member

Thats why i do not trust the vaccins, specially not the chinese one of Sinovac.

The development of a vaccin takes normally 5-15 years....and now they rush the development in less than 1 year!?
They kinda have to rush, no? Which country wants to take the slow and steady path needing 5-15 years when the pandemy is happening now? You rush something, even if it's not perfect, and once the pandemy is under control, use the time you have bought to perfect it.

Now, the Brazilian case is likely not related to Coronovac (that's the vaccine tested on that person). But even if it is, I will take the vaccine. Even vaccines with decades of refinement can not achieve a perfect record. The polio vaccines occasionally will cause polio. The smallpox vaccine had killed children via allergic reactions. So on. But the ratio is very small. Far more are saved, even though no one can guarantee zero adverse reaction. Same thing with the vaccines for the coronavirus. A vaccine that passes all the tests will be a lot safer for me than going without a vaccine and if one in a hundred thousand gets severe allergic reactions, that's way better than the mortality rate for COVID-19.

If you don't trust Coronovac there will be other vaccines. But all of them will be rushed.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
They kinda have to rush, no? Which country wants to take the slow and steady path needing 5-15 years when the pandemy is happening now? You rush something, even if it's not perfect, and once the pandemy is under control, use the time you have bought to perfect it.

Now, the Brazilian case is likely not related to Coronovac (that's the vaccine tested on that person). But even if it is, I will take the vaccine. Even vaccines with decades of refinement can not achieve a perfect record. The polio vaccines occasionally will cause polio. The smallpox vaccine had killed children via allergic reactions. So on. But the ratio is very small. Far more are saved, even though no one can guarantee zero adverse reaction. Same thing with the vaccines for the coronavirus. A vaccine that passes all the tests will be a lot safer for me than going without a vaccine and if one in a hundred thousand gets severe allergic reactions, that's way better than the mortality rate for COVID-19.

If you don't trust Coronovac there will be other vaccines. But all of them will be rushed.
You pays your money; you takes your chances. Like the article says, COVID-19 is highly political in Brazil with a President who is a Trump clone. It's one death that's reported as being unrelated to the Sinovac vaccine and the article states that neither Indonesia nor Turkey where the vaccine is also being trialled have called a temporary halt to the trials.
 

cdxbow

Active Member
I agree with OPSSG that the fractured response to COVID in the US can be blamed on the Public Health organisation.
This overarching organisation is detailed here https://www.nhpf.org/library/background-papers/BP77_GovPublicHealth_08-18-2010.pdf
For those without time to read the whole I offer a few fundamental quotes:
“Legally and traditionally states are the primary authority for Public Health”
“Federal funds are mainly awarded to specific projects” but make up about half of state funding.
“Federal policies influence but do not dictate state and local health practices”
“The broad flexibility states have in defining the public health role has led to highly varied and fragmented government health infrastructure”
“State governments play a pivotal role in planning for public health emergencies”
“States are to coordinate their efforts with the CDC”
“States regulate all public health authorities”

There has been much comment by both sides of politics during this pandemic and it has been the sole topic used against the incumbent however, from the above you can see that the executive is pretty limited in responding to the issue despite the commentary.
Moral leadership however is a different question.
The most important thing in managing a pandemic is clear, coherent, consistent messaging of science based measures from the top. None of that has been present in the US response. While the Fed/states arrangements makes it complicated in the US, descending into outright Fed/state warfare made it much worse. Then there is the promotion of crack cures, raising false hope, refusing to wear a mask and encouraging dangerous behaviours in others. The US response was the worst it could be. It will become a case study in how not to respond to a crisis.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
While the Fed/states arrangements makes it complicated in the US, descending into outright Fed/state warfare made it much worse.
There hasn't really been that much fractionalization through federalism in the US, just the usual inter-party banter that permeates politics over there.

Over here we had a state government tell a local district to shut down one of their emergency hospitals in April because "emergency hospitals are not part of the state pandemic strategy" and basically that they want "that building turned back into its original school function by the end of the month when the state reopens schools".
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #660
This article points out the apparent difference in approach to vaccine development by Russia compared to the West (military versus academic/commercial). The 48th CRI could have some other motives besides vaccines. Interestingly, no mention of the other significant player that has both approaches, China.
 
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