Middle East Defence & Security

Ananda

The Bunker Group
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The talk for regime change in Iran by Israel is delusional idea as picture above. Pahlevi? Really? and if this is the idea of Israel for alternative that they want to sell to Iran mass, shown how delusional Netanyahu is.

Regime change can only happens with boots on the ground. Not by Fighters Jets above, and Iran do still send missiles to Israel, despite all the Israel Defence Force claim they have reach total aerial supremacy. Iran continue sending missiles shown otherwise.

If any, only US that can have any "potential" abilities for regime change in Iran, not Israel. However US know getting regime change in Iran is much harder then Iraq or Libya. If that easy, they already do that long time ago. There will be no Parsi Spring uprising movement as some in West or Israel hope. Talking about how Iran regime as dictator while send Jet Fighters attack, is just delusional if it is hope to trigger uprising.

With what Trump facing back home, logically Trump will not venture on that area. But with Trump who knows.
 
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Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
With the continued IDF strikes now broadening the target list to include Propaganda sites and more IRGC sites it looks like Israel may have moved beyond the degradation of the Nuke sites and perhaps shifted to total regime change. It appears they are not striking regular Army units but Quds and IRGC. Maybe thinking the regular army isn’t as radicalized and may be able to step in and protect any type of civilian revolt against the regime.

Thoughts?
Regime change would require measures that I am currently not aware if they are being done. I provided a list earlier of what those measures might be, but briefly it's not just the IRGC, but rather the Basij, C2, and anything related to IRGC's crowd-control capabilities.

I highlighted if. This is your extrapolation of her statement, correct?
I can only assume she meant nuclear breakout.

I would read at face value that the US assessed that there is no decision to go nuclear in 2025 and she said exactly what she wanted to say. Then we are left with Israel's / Bibi's statement that Iran was on the verge of "breakout".
If you are saying this is not about a breakout, then what do you mean by "not going nuclear"? Do you mean Iran did not have a nuclear program to begin with? No Uranium mining, no enrichment, no conversion, no weaponization?

Because my understanding of the situation is that there are 2 possible situations:
  1. Status quo of Iranian enrichment below a certain threshold, that allows it to make progress by increasing the number of weapons they can construct, but not to construct nuclear weapons from it yet.
  2. Begin the construction of nuclear weapons at least from what they have.
Is there some 3rd option you think she implies? And if so, explain why.

Trumpy kinda answers your questions.

But colour me skeptical if you expect me to believe Israel's convenient casus belli, which is not confirmed by the US, who has an active interest to see Iran stopped.
Who asked you to believe it?

The talk for regime change in Iran by Israel is delusional idea as picture above. Pahlevi? Really? and if this is the idea of Israel for alternative that they want to sell to Iran mass, shown how delusional Netanyahu is.
Literally none in Israel's defense establishment and government, nor their American counterparts, has mentioned Reza Pahlavi in the context of the current campaign. So who is delusional?

Regime change can only happens with boots on the ground.
That is just factually wrong and there is an abundance of evidence against your claim. Just recently it happened in Lebanon when Hezbollah was overthrown, with no boots on the ground. At least not Israeli ones.

Not by Fighters Jets above, and Iran do still send missiles to Israel, despite all the Israel Defence Force claim they have reach total aerial supremacy. Iran continue sending missiles shown otherwise.
Is it though?
The term "air supremacy" has a meaning. As does "air superiority", which is a separate term with a distinct meaning. This is important because IDF claims to have aerial superiority, not supremacy.
In simple terms, because these are indeed simple terms, air supremacy means one side has total or very near total control over a certain airspace. Whereas air superiority means one side has some clear advantage over their opponent within that airspace.
For example Russia and Ukraine routinely strike each other with slow flying drones but it is undeniable that both have clear air superiority over their respective territories. They do not have aerial superiority beyond the frontline, nor do they have aerial supremacy over theirs.

Iranian missiles flying over and into Israel certainly does not negate in any way Israel's aerial superiority over western Iran and Tehran as very clearly stated by the IDF. It just means there is no supremacy.
The aerial superiority in this case however is clear and undeniable. Iran has already lost a reported 50% of its TELs, the real bottleneck of its launch capability. And it's perfectly fine to be skeptical of that figure, so you can easily observe that with every passing night Iran fires fewer and fewer missiles. From 190 in the first night, to 75 on the next night, and now 2 consecutive days of about 20-30.

US that can have any "potential" abilities for regime change, not Israel.
Ahh yes, the good old "Israel can't do X" followed by Israel doing 10X.

However US know getting regime change in Iran is much harder then Iraq or Libya. If that easy, they already do that long time ago.
Weird, kinda very baseless assumption. But ok.

There will be no Parsi Spring uprising movement as some in West or Israel hope. Talking about how Iran regime as dictator while send Jet Fighters attack, is just delusional if it is hope to trigger uprising.
Because Iranians love the IRGC so much?
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Israel's defense establishment and government, nor their American counterparts, has mentioned Reza Pahlavi in the context of the current campaign. So who is delusional?
Yes off course you are as delusional as always, as you don't have alternative to sell. If you believe that they will sell that at this stage, I really wonder if you really have 'security' background as you claim. You do claim that.


Ahh yes, the good old "Israel can't do X" followed by Israel doing 10X.
Israel can do destruction but no regime change in Iran. Simple as that.

That is just factually wrong and there is an abundance of evidence against your claim. Just recently it happened in Lebanon when Hezbollah was overthrown, with no boots on the ground. At least not Israeli ones.
Is Hezbollah gone ? Is their influence in southern Lebanon gone ? Clearly you have different idea on what regime change is.

This is important because IDF claims to have aerial superiority, not supremacy.

Well that's what being sell Internationaly by media.


Weird, kinda very baseless assumption. But ok.
Well it is not baseless, well at least to those facing reality and not delusional dream.


Because Iranians love the IRGC so much?
Because they hate Israel more
 

Perun

New Member
Yes off course you are as delusional as always, as you don't have alternative to sell. If you believe that they will sell that at this stage, I really wonder if you really have 'security' background as you claim. You do claim that.
He said that he was from Ukraine and now lives and works in Israel, but I doubt that. He visits many forums and spreads the same propaganda with an arrogant tone under the same or similar name. Literary identical messages. And he constantly uses ChatGPT for his answers. My conclusion is that he is on a paycheck for spreading propaganda and trolling on forums. I don't take him seriously.
 
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Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Yes off course you are as delusional as always, as you don't have alternative to sell. If you believe that they will sell that at this stage, I really wonder if you really have 'security' background as you claim. You do claim that.
Can't even finish the first sentence without ad hominem?
We don't need to sell an alternative. Not if we look at this like a tiered matter. None assuming power could be worse than IRGC (and stabilize), so any revolution is already a victory.
As for whom takes power? That's for the Iranians to decide.
But revolution is not an official war objective, I do not believe it is happening right now, and I am more convinced it's often raised as a pressure mechanism against the Ayatollah. But I'm not too pessimistic about it either.
In a better scenario, the US and Israel would help Iranians organize a coherent local leadership and movement.

Israel can do destruction but no regime change in Iran. Simple as that.
Or can it?

Is Hezbollah gone ? Is their influence in southern Lebanon gone ? Clearly you have different idea on what regime change is.
No, they're alive and have influence, but they're no longer the de facto Lebanese government. The balance of power shifted to an elected Lebanese government, with Israeli and American support.

Well that's what being sell Internationaly by media.
No that's one journalist writing a column on a clock-oriented website. You decide to consume low quality newspaper and TV media at your peril.

Meanwhile, actual unfiltered statement from the IDF:

Well it is not baseless, well at least to those facing reality and not delusional dream.
Ok so you can provide some basis for your claim that the US attempted a regime change in Iran?
I'm personally much more receptive to a logical chain, but I guess printed press is also fine.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
If you are saying this is not about a breakout, then what do you mean by "not going nuclear"? Do you mean Iran did not have a nuclear program to begin with? No Uranium mining, no enrichment, no conversion, no weaponization?

Because my understanding of the situation is that there are 2 possible situations:
  1. Status quo of Iranian enrichment below a certain threshold, that allows it to make progress by increasing the number of weapons they can construct, but not to construct nuclear weapons from it yet.
  2. Begin the construction of nuclear weapons at least from what they have.
Is there some 3rd option you think she implies? And if so, explain why.
I refer to her statement.

The IC continues to assess that Iran is not building a nuclear weapon and Supreme leader Khomeini has not authorized the nuclear weapons program that he suspended in 2003. We continue to monitor closely if Tehran decides to reauthorize its nuclear weapons program

In case we get lost in the thread, the original point from KipPotapych was about American intelliengence assessment, which you ask for a reference and I provided.

Who asked you to believe it?
I am not sure if we are talking past each other.

Statements have been put out by the State of Israel that Iran was on the verge of assembling operational nuclear weapons as the casus belli. You are asking me not to believe those statements? Or you are telling me whether I believe or not does not matter to Big_Zucchini?
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
I refer to her statement. To your point, her statement aligns to your point 2.

The IC continues to assess that Iran is not building a nuclear weapon and Supreme leader Khomeini has not authorized the nuclear weapons program that he suspended in 2003. We continue to monitor closely if Tehran decides to reauthorize its nuclear weapons program

In case we get lost in the thread, the original point from KipPotapych was about American intelliengence assessment, which you ask for a reference and I provided.

I don't see a value to assume, imply or infer anything since we can't have any means to validate with the source (Tulsi Gabbard) if she actually meant what she said or there are hidden meanings.
Great, and as you said, this statement was in March. It's June now, so it's no longer valid. Such statement is only as valid as the breakout period itself, which is measured in days.

If it was for example 6 months, then we'd know that in the worst case scenario, Iran would be 3 months away from a bomb and so her statement would have some relevance.

Statements have been put out by the State of Israel that Iran was on the verge of assembling operational nuclear weapons as the casus belli. You are asking me not to believe those statements? Or you are telling me whether I believe or not does not matter to Big_Zucchini?
I do not care what anyone believes in, as long as said belief is not used as the basis of an argument.
If you claim Iran has not initiated the breakout, then not believing an intelligence assessment is not a valid basis on its own, and must be accompanied by other supporting facts.
 
I refer to her statement.

The IC continues to assess that Iran is not building a nuclear weapon and Supreme leader Khomeini has not authorized the nuclear weapons program that he suspended in 2003. We continue to monitor closely if Tehran decides to reauthorize its nuclear weapons program

In case we get lost in the thread, the original point from KipPotapych was about American intelliengence assessment, which you ask for a reference and I provided.



I am not sure if we are talking past each other.

Statements have been put out by the State of Israel that Iran was on the verge of assembling operational nuclear weapons as the casus belli. You are asking me not to believe those statements? Or you are telling me whether I believe or not does not matter to Big_Zucchini?
Netanyahu 1992: Iran is 3-5 years away from a nuclear weapon
Netanyahu 2009: Iran is 1-2 years away from nuclear weapon capability
Netanyahu 2012: Iran is months away from enough enrichment for a nuclear weapon
Netanyahu 2025: Iran is days away from weapons grade uranium

This time he's telling the truth, trust him bro.

Don't feed the trolls.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Hi Perun, welcome back. I know you've been away for a while. Please remember that when posting links to materials the expectation is that you're going to provide some of your own input as to what the significance of the materials is, and what about the materials you want to discuss. Posting a link with no commentary is against forum rules.

A general warning to everyone in this thread, please keep personal attacks out of the discussion.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Netanyahu 1992: Iran is 3-5 years away from a nuclear weapon
Netanyahu 2009: Iran is 1-2 years away from nuclear weapon capability
Netanyahu 2012: Iran is months away from enough enrichment for a nuclear weapon
Netanyahu 2025: Iran is days away from weapons grade uranium

This time he's telling the truth, trust him bro.

Don't feed the trolls.
Unknowingly you just proved that Netanyahu was very consistent in these claims. What you are probably not aware of is the term "breakout time", and that "Iran is X time away from a bomb" actually refers to that.

In layman's terms, breakout time is the time for a nation to get to an operational nuclear weapon, IF said nation decides to go full speed ahead.

Therefore breakout time never aligns with real time. As breakout time reduces, it may at some point take months of work just to scratch a day off.

If real time and breakout time reduce at similar rate, that means said nation is doing nuclear breakout.

Iran hasn't initiated such breakout until just days ago, according to Israeli and American intelligence. Alternatively, merely getting to a very short breakout time could result in a similar threat perception also inviting a strike.

I know you thought you had a dunk there but it'd be much better for everyone if you just ask about things you don't yet understand.
 

uguduwa

New Member
Iran was supposed to receive some Su-35S, but the timeline on that is foggy. I don't know that China would sell them anything more modern than that. 20-30 modern-ish fighters wouldn't have made much of a difference here. Israel would have to adjust how they operate, but the outcome would be substantially the same.
Russia dragged their feet on Su35 but couldn‘t Iran focus on some Chinese hardware when they knew that Russia is not reliable. I assume Chinese hardware is working somewhat reliably against western weapon systems judging from India-Pakistan war. Would Israel still have an easier time dominating Iran had Iran modernized their air force?

……
I also don‘t understand Iran‘s strategy. They invested more into their proxy network than their concentional military. Put all of their eggs on their missiles. Started a conventional war against Iran by launching a drone attack while knowing that their military is significantly weaker which made the war go from proxy to direct. Israel then demonstrated that they can strike inside Iran with an airstrike targeting an abondened building. Then Iran sent a bunch of missiles again over their proxy which then Israel answered by bombing a whole lot of targets inside Iran which was the turning point of the war that gave Israel the confidence that they can violate Iranian airspace with impunity.

They probably put too much faith on their missiles.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Russia dragged their feet on Su35 but couldn‘t Iran focus on some Chinese hardware when they knew that Russia is not reliable. I assume Chinese hardware is working somewhat reliably against western weapon systems judging from India-Pakistan war. Would Israel still have an easier time dominating Iran had Iran modernized their air force?
Yes. Iran's military was compromised to the core, and had deep rooted issues that could not be simply fixed with modern technology.
Israel is using both modern F-35s, as well as 40 year old F-15s to great effect over Iran.
Iran's air defenses were by no means bad, but they did not use what they had competently.

I also don‘t understand Iran‘s strategy. They invested more into their proxy network than their concentional military. Put all of their eggs on their missiles. Started a conventional war against Iran by launching a drone attack while knowing that their military is significantly weaker which made the war go from proxy to direct. Israel then demonstrated that they can strike inside Iran with an airstrike targeting an abondened building. Then Iran sent a bunch of missiles again over their proxy which then Israel answered by bombing a whole lot of targets inside Iran which was the turning point of the war that gave Israel the confidence that they can violate Iranian airspace with impunity.

They probably put too much faith on their missiles.
Iran made a very long series of mistakes. But first and foremost they must be cursing Sinwar for the October 7th attack that set it all in motion.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Russia dragged their feet on Su35 but couldn‘t Iran focus on some Chinese hardware when they knew that Russia is not reliable. I assume Chinese hardware is working somewhat reliably against western weapon systems judging from India-Pakistan war. Would Israel still have an easier time dominating Iran had Iran modernized their air force?
I think these are two separate points. I'm not sure Russia dragged their feet, though that is a common interpretation of what happened. It's possible Iran placed orders with relatively later delivery timeframes for cost and training reasons. But yes, they may have had the option to go Chinese, in which case there's an open question about what would be made available to them. Israel would not have had an easier time dominating if Iran had modernized their airforce. There's no reason to think they would. But there in lies the key. Modernizing your airforce and purchasing a small batch of modern-ish fighters isn't the same thing. Iran would realistically need 100+ new fighter jets (maybe more like 200+), a whole new arsenal of air-launched munitions, a revamp of their radar network, a massive investment into better SAMs and AAA, EW, ELINT/SIGINT, and even AEW capability. The last point would be particularly challenging to acquire. The Iranian Flanker deal would certainly not have prevented this outcome, even if Iran had purchased 36 new Su-35S with the latest RVV-SD and RVV-BD variants, had fully trained pilots for all of them, and the groud infrastructure in place to operate them at a sortie rate comparable with Russian peak operations in Syria. None of these points individually is all that likely, collectively it's an exercise in best case scenario estimates. And it still would be well short of what's needed.

I also don‘t understand Iran‘s strategy. They invested more into their proxy network than their concentional military. Put all of their eggs on their missiles. Started a conventional war against Iran by launching a drone attack while knowing that their military is significantly weaker which made the war go from proxy to direct. Israel then demonstrated that they can strike inside Iran with an airstrike targeting an abondened building. Then Iran sent a bunch of missiles again over their proxy which then Israel answered by bombing a whole lot of targets inside Iran which was the turning point of the war that gave Israel the confidence that they can violate Iranian airspace with impunity.

They probably put too much faith on their missiles.
It appears Iran thought this wouldn't happen. Their exchanges of missile strike were a tit-for-tat response intended to demonstrate resolve. It's a response that would be much more frightening from someone like Russia or China because at the end of the escalation spiral lies nuclear devastation from a counter-value strike. Theoretically conventional munitions can cause the same effect as a nuclear weapon, you just need far more of them to deliver that kind of destructive power. And Israel is quite small territorially, with concentrated population. So in theory a large enough Iranian conventional missile arsenal could have a similar effect. This is where Israel's attacks on Iranian launch platforms is taking its toll.

I regard this as a profound strategic failure on Iran's part. They simply didn't plan for this contingency, consequently underinvesting into their air defense capabilities on a massive scale.
 

PachkaSigaret

New Member
A few thoughts:

Israel wisely waited till several cards fell into place. The toppling of the Assad regime being one. The weakening of Iran's proxies Hezbollah, Hamas, and militias in Syria. Being able to use Iraqi airspace freely with AWACS and re-fueling aircraft to provide the ability to constantly loiter and pierce through Iranian air defense systems. They were able to more easily establish air superiority, at least a large corridor to Tehran. Last but not least a major one....Trump. I feel like they believed he'd be an easier President to deal with and get their way. Not to mention even more force multipliers.. better real time intelligence, including that of the United States. Mobilizing Jordanian, American and British forces to help shoot down incoming missiles and drones.

Still early on, and Iran could still do some damage yet. Let's say the U.S. decides to hop directly into the fray, which seems likely; in that case, they could have a hard time mining the Straits of Hormuz. If they're unable to pro-actively strike targets in Israel then that doesn't bode well for them striking any nearby bases. All in all it's not looking good for Iran compounded with their own strategic failures.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
The U.N had restrictions on Iran's development of ballistic missiles which Iran ignored ,having an estimated three thousand ballistic missiles
If Iran had the capability of launching most of these at once it would likely have overwhelmed Israel's defence systems
A viewpoint from the I.D.F mentioning the destruction of launchers by the I.D.F creating bottlenecks for actual launches of remaining missiles
 
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