Malaysian Army/Land forces discussions

Mr Ignorant

New Member
You know what?

I raised the issue of RRD as per RAMD, and I feel somewhat confused at the number of Battalions between the 2. I guess I must have lost myself.

RAMD is some 18-20 Battalions in order, and currently RRD is at 9. Hence the confusion.

However, an increase in Battalions is not going to serve any purpose whatsoever.And so Renjer has rightly pointed this out. As I understand, all Battalions in the MAF, have retained numbers at 550 per Battalion, to be raised to 1,000, as and when required.
 

wzhtg

New Member
re

Read in JDW that the PT91M has gone into serial production of the 48 ordered. 3 were delivered for trials in May this year. 6 more were delivered for the Merdeka day celebrations.
Yup that's true, here's an article in the star about it.

Polish tanks being tested after delivery
By PAUL GABRIEL

KUALA LUMPUR: Six of the 48 PT-91M Twardy main battle tanks, ordered from Poland for the army, have been delivered and are undergoing tests here.
The remaining Twardy (which means tough in Polish) tanks and 14 support/military vehicles, sought under an RM1.4bil military deal signed in 2003, will arrive in batches.
The deal made big news as it was the maiden acquisition of main battle tanks for the armed forces.
Previously, the army only had 26 of the British-made Scorpion 90 light tanks.
The Polish tanks were chosen over other battle tank designs due to their lighter combat weight (42 tonnes), which better suit local terrain and soil conditions.
Army use: The PT-91M Twardy tank, which made its appearance at the 50th Merdeka parade recently, was chosen over other designs due to its lighter combat weight.
The six tanks, assigned to the Royal Armoured Corps based in Gemas, Negri Sembilan, made their maiden public appearance at the 50th Merdeka parade.
A Defence Ministry spokesman said military personnel were testing the tanks and an official launching ceremony would be held later.
The contract with Poland also covers defence technology transfer to Malaysia and training courses for local military personnel in Poland.
The “after-sales service” from Poland will include setting up an ammunition manufacturing depot and tank repair plant here.
Deputy Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak, who inked the tank deal with Poland, will inspect the tanks soon.
Polish Ambassador to Malaysia Eugeniusz Sawicki said the arrival of the first batch of tanks signalled a proud moment for his country’s military industry.
“The tank deal was clinched after long negotiations. The tanks have been custom-made for Malaysia’s requirements,” he said.
MMC Defence Sdn Bhd, which specialises in armoured vehicle technology, is involved in the project with Bumar Labedy, the tank’s manufacturers. The anti-explosion tanks, which had upgraded speed, power, communications system and firing range, can manoeuvre to reach difficult terrain.
 

Izzy1

Banned Member
Malaysia sure does have quite a diverse source of kit:

Army

PT-91 - Poland
Scorpian 90 - UK
KIFV - South Korea
AML 60/90 - France
Condor APC - Germany
Sibmas APC - Belgium

5 different types of Assault Rifle from 4 different national suppliers.

Air Force

F/A-18 D Hornet - US
Mig-29N & Su-27 MKM - Russia

Navy

Scorpene SSKs - France
Lekiu FFGs - UK
Laksamana FSGMs - Italy
Kedah Class FSGHMs - Germany

Not to mention a US Newport class amphib.


This has been hinted at on DT before, but isn't all this 'diversification' a logistical nightmare? For instance, TUDM operates 7 different types of AAM - 4 of which can not be used on the Hornet. PT-91 is a WarPac legacy - totaly different from the NATO-sourced kit Malaysia currently has. Are efforts being made to standardise and put any likely saved funds to better use? There just does not seem to be any long-term sustainability behind such procurements in my opinion.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Malaysia sure does have quite a diverse source of kit:

Army

PT-91 - Poland
Scorpian 90 - UK
KIFV - South Korea
AML 60/90 - France
Condor APC - Germany
Sibmas APC - Belgium

5 different types of Assault Rifle from 4 different national suppliers.

Air Force

F/A-18 D Hornet - US
Mig-29N & Su-27 MKM - Russia

Navy

Scorpene SSKs - France
Lekiu FFGs - UK
Laksamana FSGMs - Italy
Kedah Class FSGHMs - Germany

Not to mention a US Newport class amphib.


This has been hinted at on DT before, but isn't all this 'diversification' a logistical nightmare? For instance, TUDM operates 7 different types of AAM - 4 of which can not be used on the Hornet. PT-91 is a WarPac legacy - totaly different from the NATO-sourced kit Malaysia currently has. Are efforts being made to standardise and put any likely saved funds to better use? There just does not seem to be any long-term sustainability behind such procurements in my opinion.
The only reason why they purchased the Twardy was due to cost, out of all the tanks tested it came in last. It will be interesting to see if they go to the Ukrainian KBA3 125mm due to accuracy issues experienced with the 2A46MS 125mm, Ukraine is offering it a bargain prices. Poland has signed a contract with Germany to upgrade their PT-91s with a 120mm smoothbore matched up with a auto loader and new FCS, Poland was working with Ukraine for this configuration also but it looks like it fell through with Germany winning the deal.
 

Izzy1

Banned Member
The only reason why they purchased the Twardy was due to cost, out of all the tanks tested it came in last. It will be interesting to see if they go to the Ukrainian KBA3 125mm due to accuracy issues experienced with the 2A46MS 125mm, Ukraine is offering it a bargain prices. Poland has signed a contract with Germany to upgrade their PT-91s with a 120mm smoothbore matched up with a auto loader and new FCS, Poland was working with Ukraine for this configuration also but it looks like it fell through with Germany winning the deal.
eckherl - You and I both know what really motivated this deal.
 

qwerty223

New Member
Malaysia sure does have quite a diverse source of kit:

Army

PT-91 - Poland
Scorpian 90 - UK
KIFV - South Korea
AML 60/90 - France
Condor APC - Germany
Sibmas APC - Belgium

5 different types of Assault Rifle from 4 different national suppliers.

Air Force

F/A-18 D Hornet - US
Mig-29N & Su-27 MKM - Russia

Navy

Scorpene SSKs - France
Lekiu FFGs - UK
Laksamana FSGMs - Italy
Kedah Class FSGHMs - Germany

Not to mention a US Newport class amphib.


This has been hinted at on DT before, but isn't all this 'diversification' a logistical nightmare? For instance, TUDM operates 7 different types of AAM - 4 of which can not be used on the Hornet. PT-91 is a WarPac legacy - totaly different from the NATO-sourced kit Malaysia currently has. Are efforts being made to standardise and put any likely saved funds to better use? There just does not seem to be any long-term sustainability behind such procurements in my opinion.
PT-91M has all western component except the gun and its round.
and even AIM-9 had different component in compare to AIM-120...
 

gary1910

New Member
The only reason why they purchased the Twardy was due to cost, out of all the tanks tested it came in last. It will be interesting to see if they go to the Ukrainian KBA3 125mm due to accuracy issues experienced with the 2A46MS 125mm, Ukraine is offering it a bargain prices. Poland has signed a contract with Germany to upgrade their PT-91s with a 120mm smoothbore matched up with a auto loader and new FCS, Poland was working with Ukraine for this configuration also but it looks like it fell through with Germany winning the deal.
I thought the plan to upgun their PT-91 has been scrapped too.

In fact recently , there is a news report from Poland that the army will be getting another 123 surplus Leo 2A4 from Germany, posted by some Poles in another forum.

Here the Polish report, if you can read them:

http://www.dziennik.pl/Default.aspx?TabId=14&ShowArticleId=43012
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I cannor read polish sorry.

Are there hints about the price of the new Leos? I hope we are not going to sell them again for near to nothing...
 

gary1910

New Member
I cannor read polish sorry.

Are there hints about the price of the new Leos? I hope we are not going to sell them again for near to nothing...
Sorry can't read Polish as well, got that info and link from MP.net under the thread "Polish Armor (tons of photos) ", perhaps you could ask him.

Edit with more info:

Using a Polish to English Translator, as far as I could gather , it seem that the plan is there to get the 2nd batch of Leo 2, but nothing is finalised as negotiation is still on going with the German govt as well as the negotiation with the manufacturer on the cost of refurbishment of those stockpiled tanks.
 
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eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I thought the plan to upgun their PT-91 has been scrapped too.

In fact recently , there is a news report from Poland that the army will be getting another 123 surplus Leo 2A4 from Germany, posted by some Poles in another forum.

Here the Polish report, if you can read them:

http://www.dziennik.pl/Default.aspx?TabId=14&ShowArticleId=43012
Thats interesting, I havent heard anything on additional purchases, does Germany even have enough LEO2A4s left that they want to off load. I was informed that Poland wants to keep the PT-91 but upgrade the gun so that they are compatable with NATO. Germany is supposed to also be helping out in upgrading the FCS. Maybe @Kato knows if a actual contract was signed between Germany and Poland for the PT-91 upgrades, I would think that for cost reasons it would be better to get their hands on more LEO-2A4s, they can always upgrade them later with German assistance to A5 or A6 standards. The T-72 series really is at the end of its upgrade potential.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Thats interesting, I havent heard anything on additional purchases, does Germany even have enough LEO2A4s left that they want to off load.
There should be at least 100-150 left in German reserve stock, plus the 50 A4 that are still active, and are supposed to be decommissioned sometime in the next 3-4 years.
Germany wants to offload all its current reserve stock, afaik.

I was informed that Poland wants to keep the PT-91 but upgrade the gun so that they are compatable with NATO. Germany is supposed to also be helping out in upgrading the FCS. Maybe @Kato knows if a actual contract was signed between Germany and Poland for the PT-91 upgrades
No idea about FCS upgrades. For the gun, the most likely candidate would probably be KMDB, iirc the basic PT-91 upgrade already included KMDB 125mm guns to replace the old 2A26 of the early T-72.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There should be at least 100-150 left in German reserve stock, plus the 50 A4 that are still active, and are supposed to be decommissioned sometime in the next 3-4 years.
Germany wants to offload all its current reserve stock, afaik.


No idea about FCS upgrades. For the gun, the most likely candidate would probably be KMDB, iirc the basic PT-91 upgrade already included KMDB 125mm guns to replace the old 2A26 of the early T-72.
Poland should grab all of them up, how many do they currently have now.
The Polish company working with Rheinmetal was Obrum, it was a agreement that was signed around the 2003 to 2004 timeframe that consisted of a L44 gun matched up to a bustle mounted auto loader. They were also looking at placing some of the Leo2A4 FCS into their tanks. I know Poland and Ukraine also worked on the same project also but for some reason the Poles did not take them up on it. I like the KBA3 Ukrainian gun, by reducing the length from 51 calibers to 48 calibers they have managed to reduce the gun vibrations quite a bit and they can still fire all the latest generation projectiles and missiles, this should also help in thermal bending of the tube.
 

Chino

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Poland should grab all of them up, how many do they currently have now.
If they don't, I hope Singapore does.

An offer like this comes but once in a lifetime. Current 96 Leopard 2 is nice but who wants to play nice? I hope we grab more. In a real shooting war several dozen of tanks can get disabled in just one day.

Actually I am very surprised Germany are giving up more than half their original MBT strength. Either they gone "hippie" with peace and love for their fellow man or they must know something we don't.

Perhaps they already see the MBT at the end of its usefulness?
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
More than half?
A little bit more than that. ;)

We are going down to 350 active tanks + some on schools and test centers.

During high time the Bundeswehr alone fielded 5000 tanks (Leo 1 and 2 as well as M48). Not to talk of the tons of T-55s and T-72s of the NVA which were added after reunification.

And yeah the surplus Leos are a good deal.
One can get hardly as much bang for the buck with so much possible and mature growth potential.
 

Chino

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
More than half?
A little bit more than that. ;)

We are going down to 350 active tanks + some on schools and test centers.

During high time the Bundeswehr alone fielded 5000 tanks (Leo 1 and 2 as well as M48). Not to talk of the tons of T-55s and T-72s of the NVA which were added after reunification.

And yeah the surplus Leos are a good deal.
One can get hardly as much bang for the buck with so much possible and mature growth potential.
I was being polite. I know that you guys were down to 400 tanks from several thousands.

So what's the reason, then? Cost? Or simply that MBTs are not as important anymore?
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Both.
Tanks are not that important anymore to us and so our government decided to drastically reduce the armored and other combat forces (Without reducing staffs, civil servants, rear forces, etc. in the same way...:rolleyes: ).
 

Chino

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Both.
Tanks are not that important anymore to us and so our government decided to drastically reduce the armored and other combat forces (Without reducing staffs, civil servants, rear forces, etc. in the same way...:rolleyes: ).
Oh, I see... well, your loss, our gain.:D

Thanks in part to bargain price German Leopards, Singaporeans can continue to be co.cky and irritate the neighbours.
 
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