Japan Air Self-Defence Force

Ananda

Well-Known Member
Japan prepares F-X partnership framework | Jane's 360

So, Japan officially put F-X as the project to replace F-2. Looking at the concept, I see more similarities to UK Tempest or French-German Next Gen Eurofighter concept then the hybrid F-22/F-35 that LM proposed.
Regardless, based on this eventough Japan seek cooperation from other partner, the design and tech will be Japanese based and need.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I found this earlier article detailing the choices by the government to consider before going for the Super Hornet , of particular interest was the claim of an offer of a modified f22 and why it wasn't taken up
I question whether the US ever offered an export version F -22. There is is a Congressional law forbidding it. If this export version offering was real, Japan would have acted as they were interested but denied because of the ban on export. Unlike Australia, the F-22 is what Japan needs and they were prepared to pay.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Replying here in place of the RAAF thread where the post was made, as the content of the reply is with regards to the JASDF and not the RAAF.

I question whether the US ever offered an export version F -22. There is is a Congressional law forbidding it. If this export version offering was real, Japan would have acted as they were interested but denied because of the ban on export. Unlike Australia, the F-22 is what Japan needs and they were prepared to pay.
Respectfully, I disagree. What I think would have been a better option, if it was available, would be to develop a new fighter incorporating lessons learned from both the F-22 and F-35.

When comparing the two, kinematically the F-22, and it is supposed to have a superior LO signature management with a lower IR and RCS signature.

Of the AESA radars, I am uncertain which would be considered "superior" or why. The APG-77 in the F-22 I think might be larger and possibly have greater potential power output, but the APG-81 I believe is slightly newer in terms of design and updates, so the T/R modules might have more features or modes available.

In terms of avionics, sensors and software overall, I am under the impression that the F-35 is considerably improved over the F-22. The F-35's wiring loom I believe is largely fibre optic, which provides a number of potential benefits. The software coding is written in C++ as opposed to ADA, which means a larger pool of potential programmers. EODAS built into the design, etc.

In short, if one could build an F-22 with the avionics of an F-35...
 

Boagrius

Active Member
A while ago I was talking about the possibility of taking the F-35 down the superhornet route would this be a viable air superiority option especially if you twin engine it
I'm pretty sure that aircraft more or less exists already - it's called the F22 :oops:

EDIT: Disregard, Tod beat me to it.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Replying here in place of the RAAF thread where the post was made, as the content of the reply is with regards to the JASDF and not the RAAF.



Respectfully, I disagree. What I think would have been a better option, if it was available, would be to develop a new fighter incorporating lessons learned from both the F-22 and F-35.

When comparing the two, kinematically the F-22, and it is supposed to have a superior LO signature management with a lower IR and RCS signature.

Of the AESA radars, I am uncertain which would be considered "superior" or why. The APG-77 in the F-22 I think might be larger and possibly have greater potential power output, but the APG-81 I believe is slightly newer in terms of design and updates, so the T/R modules might have more features or modes available.

In terms of avionics, sensors and software overall, I am under the impression that the F-35 is considerably improved over the F-22. The F-35's wiring loom I believe is largely fibre optic, which provides a number of potential benefits. The software coding is written in C++ as opposed to ADA, which means a larger pool of potential programmers. EODAS built into the design, etc.

In short, if one could build an F-22 with the avionics of an F-35...
I would agree. If the F-22 line was restarted for whatever reason and a F-22B built you would most certainly be modernising it with the latest F-35 technology and latest sensors including a powerful AESA radar. However all of this is really moot.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
This is a reminder about the F-22A Raptor. At present, due to current US laws, the F-22 is unavailable for sale to any other country. Unless/until there is a change signed into law, any discussion of foreign orders for the Raptor will be deleted.
-Preceptor
Guys, please close off F-22 discussions from this point on, as the JSDF has no known plans, currently, to acquire the F-22.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Guys, please close off F-22 discussions from this point on, as the JSDF has no known plans, currently, to acquire the F-22.
Understood. Just one last point so that people who have not been following really understand. If the US were to restart F-22 production again (NBL IMO) even the USAF would not want more F-22A Raptors at this point. The avionics have moved on from where they had been, as has the systems architecture.

The JASDF order of F-35's will give Japan exposure to this newer systems architecture, which I would expect would inform any Japanese efforts to develop it's own 5th gen fighter aircraft.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
The only question I would have about the Japanese FX is whether or not they wouldn't be better off waiting or working towards Generation 6 technology rather than reinventing the wheel. The timeline I have seen for this aircraft would suggest an in-service date of around the 2030s by which time the Americans and perhaps Europeans will be well advanced in these programs. More significantly the Chinese are also going down the sixth-gen path.

In the fifth generation arena, the Chinese are still playing catchup with the F-35 and it will be many years before they can field anything definitively superior ... if ever.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
The only question I would have about the Japanese FX is whether or not they wouldn't be better off waiting or working towards Generation 6 technology rather than reinventing the wheel. The timeline I have seen for this aircraft would suggest an in-service date of around the 2030s by which time the Americans and perhaps Europeans will be well advanced in these programs. More significantly the Chinese are also going down the sixth-gen path.

In the fifth generation arena, the Chinese are still playing catchup with the F-35 and it will be many years before they can field anything definitively superior ... if ever.
Don’t be so sure about the Chinese military aviation capability down the road. They have lots of money, no electorate that will complain about the cost. and an aggressive espionage program to help out on design efforts.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The only question I would have about the Japanese FX is whether or not they wouldn't be better off waiting or working towards Generation 6 technology rather than reinventing the wheel. The timeline I have seen for this aircraft would suggest an in-service date of around the 2030s by which time the Americans and perhaps Europeans will be well advanced in these programs. More significantly the Chinese are also going down the sixth-gen path.

In the fifth generation arena, the Chinese are still playing catchup with the F-35 and it will be many years before they can field anything definitively superior ... if ever.
Don’t be so sure about the Chinese military aviation capability down the road. They have lots of money, no electorate that will complain about the cost. and an aggressive espionage program to help out on design efforts.
Like John says they have plenty of money, noone will complain, and very good espionage. To that I would add, they have very capable engineers and scientists, and research facilities, and sheer determination. Don't underestimate them, ever.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
I certainly don't take the Chinese lightly nor their ability at industrial espionage. After Scott Morrison's speech on cybersecurity, I talked to an acquaintance who actually works in cybersecurity. As far as he is concerned WW3 has already started ... at least at the industrial espionage level.

Part of what he does is that he tests the security level of the places he works for by playing the role of a hacker and it usually only takes a few days for him to get into most systems. He was telling me that recently he hacked into a zoom meeting between a CEO and his board members that would have made him several million dollars on the stock market had he been so inclined. He talked about companies spending tens of thousands on cybersecurity only to have staff members download copies of confidential files onto their home computers and even store some of those files on the cloud.

And yes we do train their engineers and scientists. Lenin once wrote "When it comes time to hang the capitalists, they will vie with each other for the rope contract."
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
The only question I would have about the Japanese FX is whether or not they wouldn't be better off waiting or working towards Generation 6 technology rather than reinventing the wheel. The timeline I have seen for this aircraft would suggest an in-service date of around the 2030s by which time the Americans and perhaps Europeans will be well advanced in these programs. More significantly the Chinese are also going down the sixth-gen path.

In the fifth generation arena, the Chinese are still playing catchup with the F-35 and it will be many years before they can field anything definitively superior ... if ever.
One ongoing issue with people/nations making claims or comments about 6th Gen aircraft, is that there is still no consensus as to what features, capabilities, or roles define a 6th Gen fighter. Lacking this, there is no way to distinguish a 5th Gen from a 6th Gen, or at least not yet.

As for Japan's FX programme, I see it as both being potentially quite valuable, and really not a case of re-inventing the wheel. At this point what constitutes a 5th Gen fighter has been defined, and the F-35 once it enters active service with Japan will show a pathway towards those capabilities. It will also enable Japan to develop it's own 5th Gen fighter which could be optimized for specific roles which are relevant to Japan's security situation and doctrine. Specific areas where Japan might want a feature or capability other than what is built into the F-35 could be something like a different RCS/LO signature, a different fuel fraction, thrust/weight ratio, or my personal favourite would be a different number/size/arrangement for internal weapons bays. Imagine the potential of a 5th Gen fighter with the signature of the F-35 or lower, with a similar sensor capability set at least with respect to air-to-air engagements, and an internal weapons bay which can fit and launch four WVR air-to-air missiles, and a dozen BVR air-to-air missiles. Or a 5th Gen fighter/interceptor with the sensors to detect and track an ISR node/asset like an AEW aircraft, the LO signature and range to close to within the NEZ of it's internally carried air-to-air missiles, and the task of carrying out a decapitating strike on hostile ISR assets.

As for PRC efforts, I think people are still focusing a bit too much on individual tech and platform solutions. Yes, these are discreet things which could be purchased or stolen for reverse engineering and then development of a domestic equivalent. What the PRC still seems to be working on is developing and then honing the doctrines which led to the development of the tech and platforms, and in turn spawned new doctrine to try and make the most of some of the capabilities.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
That's a good point about what constitutes 6th gen technology. According to Wikipedia (I know) these are the general distinct characteristics. At least for now.
  • More modular design going beyond wing hardpoints with primary aircraft components able to be swapped out within hours to optimize for the mission requirements and easing the introduction of future upgrades.
  • Single-seat-only cockpits with training occurring mostly in simulators.
  • Optionally manned with the same airframe capable of conducting remote controlled or AI-controlled missions.
  • Controlling a swarm of drones acting in both a defensive and reconnaissance role for the controlling fighter.
  • Battlefield data fusion with the aircraft acting as a network node capable of receiving and relaying data to multiple other platforms such as other aircraft, ground vehicles or satellites and processing that data onboard to dynamically generate new target lists or update mission parameters on the fly.
  • Increased-range stand off weapons with the drones conducting reconnaissance within enemy airspace and supplying targeting data to the fighter which remains safely outside enemy airspace.
  • Greater electrical power generation to enable equipping directed-energy weapons such as a laser CIWS.
  • Virtual cockpit helmet-mounted display allowing the pilot 360-degree vision and doing away with cockpit displays.
Certainly, a few of those requirements are already available in fifth Gen aircraft such as the F-35. My own personal definition was basically just a merging of manned and unmanned vehicles which, when you think about it, is very similar to the loyal wingman concept. That the Loyal Wingman will be controlled by AI and doesn't seem to necessarily be dependant on a controlling platform would seem to make that definition somewhat redundant.
 

hairyman

Member
Does anyone believe that it would be a good the idea ffor Australia ro get involved with Japan wirh the development of their airdraft?
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member

From Nikkei, seems MHI will be choose as leading contractor for Japan FX (some already called F-3). This is not a surprise, since MHI is the most experience Defense contractor in Japan.

F-X will be Japanese design, using Japanese Engine and Systems but Japan seems will be cooperating with US defence contractors also. Potentially assist Japanese contractors on latest tech integration for 5th gen Fighter.

As Nikkei put, all the effort is to maintain Japanese contractors experience and tech edge on Domestic capabilities. This seems follow Japan pattern with US F-4 combine with domestic F-1, US F-15 combine with domestic F-2 and now US F-35 combine with F-X/F-3.

All this shown Japanese pattern to work with US on their Aerospace Defense. One thing the F-X progress for Japanese is the independence in Engine. Before IHI still use mostly license production, now they're going with their own engine.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

The maincontractor for the F-3/X-2 Shinshin was already Mitsubishi. It was from the beginning known as Mitsubishi X-2 Shinshin - Wikipedia

So it was obvious and logic from the beginning, all fighterprograms until now are from this company.
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
All Japanese post war fighters program whether F1 or F2 were having MHI as main contractors. Fitting for company that come out with Zero in the eve of WW2.

More will be interesting to see is the final design of F3. F1 clearly have influence from Sepecat Jaguar, and F2 obviously was derived from F-16 albeit with much Japanese systems.

We'll have more clues perhaps from which one of US contractor that will be choose as partner. If Boeing, that will be interesting and if LM well we can deduct where the design going to be.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Japan to begin receiving Joint Strike Missiles from April 2021



A Japanese MoD official had told Janes in January that Tokyo is looking to procure those weapon systems from the United States “as soon as possible” for fitment onto JASDF F-15J Eagle fighters to enhance the platforms’ capabilities to effectively counter attacks at longer ranges.
But of course some people from a certain country will start to complain that "Japan will get offensive attack weapons which reflects Japan's agressive imperialistic intentions".
 
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