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Italian Navy Discussions and Updates

Discussion in 'Navy & Maritime' started by JFoulke, Mar 2, 2018.

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  1. JFoulke

    JFoulke Member

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    I hopen this post to discuss a little bit about what's going on in the italian navy.
    I'll divide this post in 3 categories: Pro (what I think is good and why), against (what i think it's bad) and neutral (all the rumors that is going around the italian navy right now or project already financed but still not started)

    PRO:
    - Italy will build 2 more submarine U212
    The U212 is ranked as one of the best disel submarine, Italy has already 4 and has financed the biuld of other 2 to use as patrol and ASW. Obviously, seeing that in an hypotetical war, Italy and Spain would be the two main power for the NATO/EU alliance in the Mediterranean, starting to change older submarines it'a always great.

    -Italy has begun the construction of the 1st of 7 PPA (pattugliatori d'altura)
    Italy has begun the construction of it's new PPA, there are many complains about these ships because these 7 vessels are devided in 3 subclasses.
    2 ships will be build in a Light Version that looks like a normal PPA, other 3 will be build in a Light+ Version that looks like a light destroyer and other 2 in Full Version that looks like a full sized destroyer.
    The complains is that to the italian parlament all of these 7 vessels should have been of the Light version, but instead has been created 3 subcategories, more than all, when discussed the ships should have been 120 meters and 3500 tons, instead all of the versions now are 140 meters, the light version is 4000 tons, the light+ 5000 tons and the full is 7000 tons.

    - Italy is keeping up with it's order of 10 FREMMs
    Despite what the critics has said at the beginning of this project, italy hasn't reduced his order and is still building all of it's 10 FREMM frigates. France unfortunately has reduced his order.

    - Italy is building 2 new Supply Ships
    Italy has finally begun the construction of two new supply ships that should be of around 23.000/26.000 tons to replace older classes that were around 8000 tons lik e the Vesuvio class. The ship will also capable of small self defence and will have a landpad for helicopters.

    - Trieste LHD
    Italy is currently building the Trieste LHD, an anphibian assault ship of 33.000 tons and 245 meters, this ship is 4000 tons bigger than the Carrier Cavour and the same length.
    There is controvercies around this ship too because when it was financed by the parliament it should have been an Humanitarian Ship of 27.000 tons without jet launch capabilities.
    Instead now it's beginning to become a carrier because of the increased size and rumor says that a modular SkiJump has been put on order.

    - F-35B
    Italy has ordered 15 F-35B, the italian navy right now is using Harriers as carrier aircrafts.
    The F-35B program is controversial and his potential too, but the Harriers is starting to show its age and the F-35 will be for sure a good improvements for the italian navy.
    Many said that 15 F-35B is too few for two carriers, but hte two carriers are meant to be used with only one with full air wing at the time and only if the other isn't available at the time so could be used as was done till now, 6/8 planes onboard the carrier in mission and only 2/4 on the other one.

    - V-22
    Italy has shown interest in the V-22 and would order 3 of such aircrafts to use it as a supply aircraft to resupply the carriers without the need of sending a supply ship or coming back to the harbour.

    AGAINST:

    - ATR72
    Italy has recently bought the ATR72 in ASW version to patrol the coast and the mediterranean, the problem is that the capabilities of the ATR as an ASW plane isn't so sure and it's quie a controversial plane seeing the current world tension.

    - Has been remarked multiple times that the state of the older vessels of the navy (that will be retired from service in 2022/2025) are not good enought and in a real war situations it wouldn't be of much help, critics has said that maybe it would be better spend some money to restore these ships instead that on a new LHD.

    NEUTRAL:

    - AW609
    Rumor says that italian navy would have request to start the developpement of the aircraft AW609 built by Leonardo in an AWACS variant in order to be used on the Cavour carrier and on the future Trieste carrier.

    -LHD 27.000 tons
    Seeing that the Trieste will take the place of the Garibaldi and one of the San Marco Class landing ship (8000 tons) there is the need of one more landing ships to take the place of the other two San Marco Class ship, one more LHD has been financed and should be of around 27.000 tons, but a full rendered project hasn't still been approved.
     
  2. hauritz

    hauritz Active Member

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    Welcome aboard.

    The Italian navy is one of the most underrated navies in the world.

    It has a large well balanced fleet backed up with a powerful shipbuilding industry. As a European power I would rank it only behind the British, French and Russians in terms of overall capability, but that is just because those countries have nuclear submarines.

    The fact is that Italy has two aircraft carriers capable of operating fixed wing aircraft while no other European nation currently operates more than one. It operates more attack submarines than any other European nation except Russia.

    I agree that it should look at additional F-35Bs to take full advantage of its two carriers.
     
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  3. JFoulke

    JFoulke Member

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    I think that Italy is doing a really great job at modernizing its navy.
    Obviously none of it’s carrier is as capable as the Charles de Gaule or the Queen Elizabeth but it’s definitely good assets for Anti-Submarine and anti-ship warfare or also as landing assault ship...

    You are completely right, Italy should buy more F-35B, but how many?
    Well, I read that the Cavour at full could carry 22 aircrafts.
    Let’s assume that 8 spots is taken by 8 helicopters or 7 helicopters and one V-22 for patrol, ASW and transport, that means that there is place for 14 F-35B.
    Let’s assume that the newer Trieste Carrier can carry the same amount of aircrafts.
    This means that to have both carriers full there is the needs of 28 F-35B.
    Right now the navy has two Harrier always for training purposes, plus other 2/3 always ready in case of need.
    This means that the Italians would need 28 for two full carrier wings + 2/3 F-35 for training + 4/5 for spare = 34/36 F-35B

    I Really don’t see Italy buying these much aircrafts in the near future, I would be already happy with 22.
    So that 2 would be for training, 3 for spare, and 9/11 for the carrier on mission and 6/8 for the other one.

    For sure if they could work really on that AW609 AWACS would be really great
     
  4. hauritz

    hauritz Active Member

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    I have a feeling the Trieste will mostly be used as an LHD which would probably exclude it operating its own fixed-wing aircraft. Hanger space is at an absolute premium when you are carrying troops and equipment so there probably wouldn't be enough room for combat aircraft. I imagine that the plan would be for it to serve as a backup for the Cavour should it not be available.

    The original plan for 22 F-35B would be a reasonable pool to draw from and would be enough to keep at least one of the ships operating a full complement of fighters.
     
  5. JFoulke

    JFoulke Member

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    There should have been put in order also a modular Ski Jump to be fitted afterwards on the deck of the Trieste.
    I think too that the Trieste will be rolled out as a carrier only when the Cavour won't be available, just like the Garibaldi is doing right now.
     
  6. Todjaeger

    Todjaeger Potstirrer

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    Adding something like a ski jump to a vessel is a fairly significant modification given the structural reinforcement needed to support the ski jump, and then the increased displacement of both the ski jump and supporting structure. All of this in turn impacts both the overall displacement of the vessel, but also the load balancing.

    To give an idea of the significance, the RAN's Canberra-class LHD's all have ski jumps, despite the ADF not having any plans to operate fixed wing aircraft from them. Per the RAN & ADF CONOPS, the space occupied by the ski jump would have been more useful if the deck was flat, since it could then be a helicopter landing spot. The decision to retain the ski jump was made because it was felt that having Navantia delete the ski jump and redesign the LHD accordingly was too risky for the overall project.
     
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  7. JFoulke

    JFoulke Member

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    Just for the sake of complition, I'll post some specifics of what we are talking about in the other points above:

    -U212
    Propulsion:
    1 Group Diesel-generator mtu / Piller (3,12 MW)
    1 motor electric and permanent magnets SIEMENS (2,85 MW)
    system A.I.P. with Fuel Cells da 8 + 1 modul (306 kW)
    Speed: 22 KM/H in emertion 37 in submertion
    length 56 meters and 1830 tons

    The new 7 PPA patrol ships
    143 meters long and 16,5 meters large.
    1 RHIB of 11 meters and the hangar for 1 small/medium Helicopter
    Armed with OTO Melara 127/64 LW high-calibre Vulcano gun, OTO Melara 76/62 medium-calibre gun, Two 25mm remotely controlled small-calibre gun.
    The heavier versions will be armed also with MBDA anti ship missiles, MBDA anti-balistic missiles and heavy-weight torpedo system

    The 10 FREMM ships
    144 meters long and 20 meters wide
    Hangar space for 2 small/medium helicopters
    Armed with 16 cells for Aster 15/30, 1 OTO Melara 127/64 LW high-calibre Vulcano gun, 2 OTO Melara 76/62 medium-calibre guns, Two 25mm remotely controlled small-calibre gun, 8 Otomat Mk2/A anti-ship missiles, 2 Triple WASS B515/3 torpedo systems
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
  8. JFoulke

    JFoulke Member

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    Hi, i knot that adding a ski jump to the ship require some modifications, but the first project (without ski jump) was already reinforced to accomodate the ski jump in the future, that's why since the beginning this ship has created such bit controvercies.
    It's happening what more or less happened for the Cavour, the first project was without ski jump (that was ordered as a modular separate part and than fitted on the ship during the construction) but already reinforced to accomodate it, and at its time for this reason the Cavour created a lot of critics as well.
     
  9. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    Please post sources for material that you have used so that you and the forum are not subject to plagiarism accusations.
     
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  10. JFoulke

    JFoulke Member

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    Deleted all the images, I didn’t had the link to the sources of all that images
     
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  11. JFoulke

    JFoulke Member

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    Italy has recently made a contract with Piaggio for the acquisition of 20 new P1HH Hammerhead Drones, these drones will be under the jurisdiction of the Italian Air Force but as has happened till now with the Predator B drones (recently updated) will be used also to patrol coast and literal water.

    In specific the P1HH is an Italian drone produced by Piaggio Airspace, powered by two Whitney Canada PT6A-66B engines, 14 meters long, 15 meters wide and 4 meters high. 6100 kg max take off weight and 730km/h top speed.

    The internal instruments is made by Selex ES, the navigation, flight and mission systems is the SkyISTAR and the radar is the SeaSpray 7300ER.

    This drone has been researched to be able to patrol wide areas so it’s perfect to be used as a patrol of literal waters.


    Google Image Result for http://www.p1hh.piaggioaerospace.it/img/p1hh-zoom3.jpg
     
  12. JFoulke

    JFoulke Member

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    Hey, I've found this video that showcase all the new ships for the italian navy and the stats are pretty accurate
     
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  13. JFoulke

    JFoulke Member

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    I open this discussion to ask you if the full version of the new PPAs for the Italian Navy could be categorized as a fregate?
    The ships will be between 5.000 and 6.000 tons.
    Armed with 1 OTO Melara cannon 72/64 and 1 OTO anelare cannon 127/64, 2 25/80 remote turrets, VLS for 16 Aster 30 missiles and 1 for 32 CAMM ER missiles.
    2 launchers for OTOMAT TESEO anti ship missiles, 2 launchers for MU-90 torpedos and 2 launchers for the new Black Shark Torpedos

    (If you want any more details on new ships for the Italian Navy and of such PPA take a look at this video
    )

    Mod edit: Media link deleted as this is the third time you have linked to this vide in the last six hours. Such repeated behavior is suspect, as it seems like attempts to spam the forum with a YouTube video.
    -Preceptor


    In my opinion the Italians have been a little bit cheeky calling them PPA so that the parliament would approve them, but to me looks like more Fregates, what do you think?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 22, 2018
  14. John Fedup

    John Fedup Well-Known Member

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    I would call it whatever name it takes to get it built if I was in the Italian navy but I would whisper to my friends it sure seems like smaller version of the FREMM. Perhaps the CMS, sonars, and radars are less sophisticated.
     
  15. JFoulke

    JFoulke Member

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    The CMS and sonars are pretty much the same of the FREMM the radar is a little bit less capable.
    I forgot to mention that this ships is also able to carry 2 helicopters armed with 2 light torpedoes or 2 anti ship missiles.
    I really think that it’s turning up to be always more a great hardware for the future defence of the Italian coasts and the Mediterranean sea
     
  16. John Fedup

    John Fedup Well-Known Member

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    The RCN should be so lucky.:)
     
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  17. 76mmGuns

    76mmGuns Member

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    I'm just an armchair online enthusiast, but I've always been impressed by the on paper abilities of Italian naval vessels. Just look at their latest helicopter dock ship being built, which can also handle F-35B's (more like a light carrier really). I've always thought aircraft/helicopter carriers should have more robust armament. All this talk of escorts is nice, but in a war, escorts either get sunk, or run out of ordnance. 3 x 76mm guns is some nice self armament.

    I wish the RAN Canberra class would at least put on several 40mm guns- no deck penetration, but superior range of shells and hence capabilities, further range than 30mm.

    Italian Navy Future Landing Helicopter Dock LHD Likely to be Named Thaon di Revel
     
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  18. JFoulke

    JFoulke Member

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  19. JFoulke

    JFoulke Member

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    I post this video that shows the firing of the new Vulcano/DART guided ammunition’s from the 76 cannon that is used by almost every Italian ships as CIWS guns.



    Edited by Ngatimozart to conform with rules.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2018
  20. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    Please don't repost material that already has been posted by others? The best way is to link back to the original post.