Indonesian Aero News

tonnyc

Active Member
The bomb maker lists the P500L in the product list. That's the 500 kg bomb. Not sure why the 250 kg bombs were the ones used, but probably it's something simple like they're about to expire.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
After 3 years not in operation, IPTN managed the make RBAF's only CN235-220 servicable again with a small quick response team.
It seems that the after-sale service of IPTN has been improved.
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member

This's become talking point in local online forums. On one side Prabowo's now with visit to US raise speculation on his intention to close the deal on US Asset like F-16V and MV-22. At the same time this rumours on his plan visit to Europe right after Washington visit, include Austrian visit.

This raise speculation that finding second hand fighters and upgrade locally still being considered. Rumours on Indonesia preference on getting 3 even up to 4 used F-16 being upgrade locally also running around.

For one thing upgrading used Fighters whether F-16 or Eurofighter, is in fact can provide more involvement for local Industry. With the budget being provided, at most it's aim only up to two squadrons of new fighters. This will not be enough incentive on getting local Industry involvement, as the number not that big.

However buying used one, and make separate deal with the Fighter producers (whether LM for F-16 or Airbus for Eurofighter) for local upgrade can be more possible for Local Industry involvement with the same ball park range budget.

In the end this is the old arguments of Quantity vs Quality. In my opinion considering political standing, as this administration also being pounded by political problem at home due controversial new labour law, they need to sell defense procurement contract that are being shown to benefits more on local industry.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Its better not to spend too much time in all those speculations. Even after the visits to Austria and the US, there is a big chance that absolutely nothing will happen.

IPTN's latest NC212i AX-2126 will soon be delivered as A-2112 to the Indonesian Airforce. I just wonder why Indonesian users never use external fuel tanks on their NC212, like Vietnam does on their NC212i.

Photo taken by Abdiel I.R.
 

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Ahmad

Active Member
According to Alman Helvas, there is big possibility that we are going to refurbish Hawk 100/200 so it means F 16V acquisition plan to replace Hawk squadron is possibly cancelled. As I recommend many times here, better we focus new fighter acquisition from KFX/IFX project (if the renegotiation and program is successful) while for Typhoon it is to fill F5 squadron which have already all been grounded and IMO it will only be bought if it is really cheap and only mean for interim solution before being replaced by KFX/IFX fighters (if renegotiation and program is successful).

Prabowo US visit IMO is only focused on geopolitics strategy and I believe it is not about acquisition talk. The visit is also an invitation from US side, not initiated by Prabowo himself.
 
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Ananda

Well-Known Member
better not to spend too much time in all those speculations. Even after the visits to Austria and the US, there is a big chance that absolutely nothing will happen.
Well like it or not, some of those rumours and speculation under present administration can turn out to be gold. In sense they're seems intentionally put rumours around. It's fun to see how the rumours run wilds.

As I recommend many times here, better we focus new fighter acquisition from KFX/IFX project (if the renegotiation and program is successful)
It's nice to see you still optimistic for Indonesia involvement on the project that being seen by this administration as SBY project and not their own. Hope you don't get depressed if the involvement in the project being thrown away due to no political support and enthusiasm from this administration.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
According to Alman Helvas...
You have to take Alman Helvas’ posts on the issue of a LOR with a pinch of salt — including his nationalistic take on Indonesia in the region and Prabowo’s fake declared interest in an advanced American fighter (aka F-35 interest) with regard to his US trip. “On Jakarta’s wish-list is a ‘roadmap’ to procuring the F-35 fighter jet, an Indonesian government official told Reuters, speaking on condition of anonymity, adding officials were not optimistic.”

In the US, Prabowo is scheduled to meet his US counterpart Mark Esper. It’s not just a matter of lobbying the Americans or others in the region.

A real road map for a F-35 purchase will take a fundamental rethink of the TNI posture and equipping (plus a move away from Russian and Chinese equipment), and this commitment must last beyond the Jokowi administration that is in its second term. The problem is that Amman Helvas’ posts — he is sometimes half right — but he does not seem to understand the context of actual military-to-military cooperation requirements for interoperability by advanced tertiary air forces. The TNI AU is not even on track to be a tertiary air force; what is the point of talking about a F-35 purchase without the basics.
Indonesia will not be willing to do what is needed to get access to the F-35 program and it is not in Indonesian interests to be aligned that the level that Australia and Singapore are at, in relation to the US; where their troops were deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan in support of American operations and the level of basing support for American troops and naval port visits.
Robust access and support agreements, is the minimum; the actual bar as a burden sharing partner is much higher — as shown at multiple US DoD levels with Singapore’s Mindef and the various services, including with the Singapore Navy.

In the Aug 2017 USS John S. McCain collision which killed 10 sailors, saw the SAF going into action to save as many of the injured as possible, without any external consideration. The accident sparked a massive Singapore-led search at sea for the 10 US sailors who went missing. Their bodies were eventually recovered from the warship a few days later.

The US Navy, naval aviation and the US Marines all know that they have a safe harbour and landing rights in Singapore. In contrast to Singapore, Indonesia has consistently rejected amy proposal by the US to allow its P-8s to land and refuel there. The Americans made multiple “high-level” approaches to Indonesia’s defence and foreign ministers before Jokowi rebuffed the request.
It’s not just about spending enough to ensure interoperability but also spending hundreds of millions of defence dollars in high risk operations, for 6 years in Afghanistan, or sending troops as part of a multinational coalition to fight ISIS in Iraq; and to deploy medical, imagery analysis and special forces teams to build local capacity along with Australian and American troops.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Agree, i never took the F-35 as a serious candidate, its just a fanboy fantasy. Even if the Indonesian governement is willing to spend billions of USD on a single defence procurement program, Indonesia will not get the F-35.
So a F-35 acquisition is even less likely than the MV-22B.

The problem with Alman Helvas is that it is unclear where he got his information from. It almost looks like that he HAS to post something, a daily 'report' or statement based on speculations, online rumours and his own interpretations.

Just two of his statements:
"BAE Systems Hawk 109/209 likely will fly in Indonesian sky in the next decade. Indonesia likely will refurbish all remaining Hawk fleet before 2024. It'll give BAE Systems and Rolls-Royce another breath in Indonesia. Hawk (and Adour engine) still the only UK made fighter here."
In the '90s and 2000s it was a modern light fighter, and should be able to handle primitive fighters and attack aircrafts like the F-5, Q-5, J-6 and J-7. But these 25 years old subsonic fighters have a short range and a very limited weaponload. With just being armed with the AIM-9P-4 it maybe will even have problems with something like a JF-17 or J-8II. So keeping them longer than 10 years from now in our fleet, is not such a good idea.
He said twice "likely", so it seems to me that he is also just guessing.

"The competition for Indonesian near future submarine is between Naval Group versus TKMS. Both European OEMs are offering their best solution for Indonesia. South Korea's DSME absolutely out of the game. How about the fate of previous repeat order contract? It's very very murky."

So first he says "South Korea's DSME absolutely out of the game." And then "How about the fate of previous repeat order contract? It's very very murky." That means he also doesnt know it at all.


Im sorry, but i refuse to accept him as a reliable source of defence information. After all he is a FORMER Jane's Representative.

In my opinion we can only expect some 2nd hand F-16s, a dozen second hand C-130Hs or a small amount of C-130Js (2-3) before 2024 in best case scenario.

And yes, its not unlikely that absolutely nothing will happen.
 
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Ananda

Well-Known Member
opinion we can only expect some 2nd hand F-16s, a dozen second hand C-130Hs or a small amount of C-130Js (2-3) before 2024 in best case scenario.
The preliminary contract for J's (5-6) already signed in the last days of Prabowo's predecessor. It's more likely one of the agenda he's doing is finishing that process.
It's still rumours, but if we see which US manufacturer that already closing in with DI is Bell and Boeing. Thus if anything come out from this visit, more probable are Boeing and Bell products, like MV-22, CH-47 or P-8 as Navy already put long range MPA in the planning.

The TNI AU is not even on track to be a tertiary air force; what is the point of talking about a F-35 purchase without the basics
Network Integration is what TNI aiming, thus asside Political standing of Local Industry involvement, the need for network Integration is shown strong support within TNI current leadership.

F-35 is not really the aim for now, in my opinion. Luhut talk on F-35 as he's one of supporters for closer relationship with China. He bring that, since he knows well the chances for F-35 in near future is very small. Thus politically he can still bring justification of his agenda of Closer China relationship. His Agenda taking steep back due to Natuna's incursion. However showing that US will not give F-35, is ammo for him and political factions behind him to shown US never see Indonesia as strategic Partner anyway.

Base on what Prabowo's move, I don't even see him want F-35. He's preference more to Eurofighter or Rafale. On getting that, I even see chances for V version can be switched for either one those two. I put that since Airbus already talk on potential they'll provide tech transfer for Eurofighter software, thus giving TNI more room for their plan of Independent Network. Similar noise also being discussed with the French. I've been talk for sometime, never underestimate Airbus lobby on Indonesian defense procurement.

Again it's all still rumours, but so far present Prabowo's MinDef shown more interest with Euro origin fighters then US ones. TNI-AU are the ones that still wants more F-16 family.
F-35 is being bring out by Indonesian Officials as positioning with US. Their position is to ask US; "we are going to forgone Su-35, but what you're going to offer us" F-35 ? Or more access to F-16V systems ?

Let's see where the game play out.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Well like it or not, some of those rumours and speculation under present administration can turn out to be gold. In sense they're seems intentionally put rumours around. It's fun to see how the rumours run wilds.



It's nice to see you still optimistic for Indonesia involvement on the project that being seen by this administration as SBY project and not their own. Hope you don't get depressed if the involvement in the project being thrown away due to no political support and enthusiasm from this administration.
I can not believe that the majority of these senseless rumours and wild speculations are all intentionally spread by the government.
Most of it by inmature fanboys and 'professional journalists' like in this article


The article above is based on this article: France proposes 12 second-hand Rafale fighters to Croatia

In that article its written that the twelve 2nd hand Rafales are offered to Kroatia, and that Greece has known its intention to procure 18 Rafale, including 12 second hand ones. Nothing about any Indonesian intentions, the name Indonesia was even not mentioned in this article.

But yes, i also can not wait until our defence minister has visited the US and later the European countries. Until now we hear nothing about the negotiations between the South-Korean and Indonesian teams about the KFX or about the results of the conversations between minister Prabowo and his American colleague, but maybe that is on purpose because he also has to go to Europe first.
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
So far nothing substantial coming from Prabowo's Pentagon visit, yet. Their joint communique seems very neutral. Perhaps his visit to French will give more substantial result. Not that I say nothing will come from US visit, but let's be honest if Bidden wins different US attitude to Indonesia can happen.

After all those US Senators and Congressman/woman that still 'beligerrance' toward Indonesia in the cloth of 'human rights' come from Democrats.
Guess they will wait the results of Election. I might be wrong, but I see historically Indonesian Officials are always more 'watchfull' with Democrats White House compared to Republican ones.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
So far nothing substantial coming from Prabowo's Pentagon visit, yet. Their joint communique seems very neutral. Perhaps his visit to French will give more substantial result. Not that I say nothing will come from US visit, but let's be honest if Bidden wins different US attitude to Indonesia can happen.

After all those US Senators and Congressman/woman that still 'beligerrance' toward Indonesia in the cloth of 'human rights' come from Democrats.
Guess they will wait the results of Election. I might be wrong, but I see historically Indonesian Officials are always more 'watchfull' with Democrats White House compared to Republican ones.
Yes, lets wait and see until after the visits to the European countries and the American elections.

But also an important factor is our participation in the KFX project. If IPTN continue to be involved with it, it automatically means that Indonesia only need to order a single squadron of jetfighters for SkU 14, and that most other squadrons (existing and new added ones) have tonwait for the KFX.
If we step out of the program, then it means that we can/ have to choose between several alternatives: buying from different countries (new and/or second hand) and licence manufacturing
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
can not believe that the majority of these senseless rumours and wild speculations are all intentionally spread by the government.
Well, let's see what happen when there's talk frm Austria on the matter of interest on their Eurofighter. There's quite outrage from several political factions in the Parliament and even media that can be considered already have Political agenda. Then there's denial from MinDef, then talk it's only one of potential, then the talk begin to subsided.

Online there's 'buzzer' that come shown buying second hand Fighters should not be considered 'taboo', and some of those politicians that beforehand talk second hand Fighters should not be pursue, then talk about it can be done if there's benefits to local Industry.

That's what I say some source in MinDef seems putting some leak on 'possibilities' which then they're watching how public and Political reactions. Off course the media and fanboys making it Wilder.


If we step out of the program, then it means that we can/ have to choose between several alternatives: buying from different countries (new and/or second hand) and licence manufacturing
What we need to see is the long term projects commitment. They have to provided venue on multi years projects. KFX being reviewed was simply because it's seen as SBY's project and not Jokowi's project. What we got in the project is already in line with 20% involvement shares. This talk Renegotiation of wanting more than 20% work share, as I was said long ago, was nothing then this administration try to find way out from SBY's project. God forbid in this administration thinking to give credit on project that see as their predecessor ones and not theirs.

Thus whether still with KFX, or build under license on another Fighter, or become part of permanent global supply chain for DI (which in business sense it's more profitable), doesn't matter. What matters is to make sure the long term commitment on a project can be maintain even with changing administration.

In my opinion considering Indonesian political landscape, it can Happen if a project being lock into law, thus making it more difficult for next administration to walk away easily. Besides that the budget allocation as multi years project has to be define from beginning on the term of detail work share agreement and time schedule.

Now if that can be implemented, then this administration can talk on meaningful legacy in Defense projects. If not, well it's just business as usual.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
As expected, just the standard "the United States and Indonesia have agreed to tighten defense and maritime security cooperation between the two countries"....

No arms deals, nothing really special happened.
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
The French schedule after meeting with Austrian Defense Minister, coincide with Euronaval. Wondering if he will go there, since that can bring conclusion on this rumours of potential deal between PAL and Naval Group as conclusion on their previous MoU (ups..should put this on Indonesian Navy Thread).

Anyway, as I have posted before, any deals with US on Fighters in my opinion depends on what kind of deal that Prabowo's got in Europe. Latest procurement in Navy and Army shown more sourcing from Euro zone. Even in electronics, PT. LEN also shown more cooperation with Euro Partners. It's the AF that still shown their preference for US products. So let's see what the results from Euro zone.
 
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