Indonesian Aero News

[Sandhi Yudha]

I actually dont understand why some people only focus on the P-8 Poseidon, while there is also a great alternative: the SC-140J Sea Herc.
Specially for a Hercules-addicted airforce like the TNI-AU, this aircraft with similar range, loitering time but superior take-off and landing performance can not be a wrong choice. Also ordering the SC-130J together with normal C-130J-30s is maybe financially attractive, it can give us some bonuses or discounts. After all the 50+ years old C-130B need to be replaced and the new C-130 squadron also needs more aircrafts.

 

[John Fedup]

I actually dont understand why some people only focus on the P-8 Poseidon, while there is also a great alternative: the SC-140J Sea Herc.
Specially for a Hercules-addicted airforce like the TNI-AU, this aircraft with similar range, loitering time but superior take-off and landing performance can not be a wrong choice. Also ordering the SC-130J together with normal C-130J-30s is maybe financially attractive, it can give us some bonuses or discounts. After all the 50+ years old C-130B need to be replaced and the new C-130 squadron also needs more aircrafts.

I am unsure as to what LM has actually created. They have been flogging this alternative for years without any takers. I would think the P-8 has speed and range advantages plus support advantages due to the huge 737 commercial successes (well, until recently at least).

 

[ngatimozart]

I actually dont understand why some people only focus on the P-8 Poseidon, while there is also a great alternative: the SC-140J Sea Herc.
Specially for a Hercules-addicted airforce like the TNI-AU, this aircraft with similar range, loitering time but superior take-off and landing performance can not be a wrong choice. Also ordering the SC-130J together with normal C-130J-30s is maybe financially attractive, it can give us some bonuses or discounts. After all the 50+ years old C-130B need to be replaced and the new C-130 squadron also needs more aircrafts.

The much talked about Sea Herc is a paper aircraft. It's never been built and Lockheed Martin have never found a launch customer for it. Indonesia would be making a huge mistake being the launch customer for it because it's a high risk endeavour and would be very expensive. You would also run the risk of being saddled with an orphan platform. The P-8A Poseidon is much more than a MPA, so that's why it is talked about. If you just want a straight MPA then there is either the Airbus C295MPA or the KHI C-2 from Japan.

 

[Ananda]

Just add, TNI-AU aim also replacing 737-200 Surveillance. Thus I suspect they're after platform that can provide similar or more flight characteristics. Thus 737 based probably come as their aim (if budget doesn't prohibited that).

Anyway, this's probably one thing that can be used as part of way out to get some kind of US presences in Natuna.

RI Undang AS Investasi di Natuna

Menlu Retno mendorong investor AS untuk berinvestasi lebih banyak di Indonesia, termasuk untuk proyek di pulau-pulau terluar, seperti Pulau Natuna.

m.cnnindonesia.com

Commercial Investment off course it's not same with Military Presence. However just like China, which use Commercial Investment as part of building presence on certain area like in Pacific.

 

[ASSAIL]

I actually dont understand why some people only focus on the P-8 Poseidon, while there is also a great alternative: the SC-140J Sea Herc.
Specially for a Hercules-addicted airforce like the TNI-AU, this aircraft with similar range, loitering time but superior take-off and landing performance can not be a wrong choice. Also ordering the SC-130J together with normal C-130J-30s is maybe financially attractive, it can give us some bonuses or discounts. After all the 50+ years old C-130B need to be replaced and the new C-130 squadron also needs more aircrafts.

If a Sea Herc were developed and in service, it may suit the needs of an archipelagic state such as Indonesia where so much effort is expended in the littorals and transits from the various airbases are reasonably short.
The advantage of the P8 was best illustrated during the search for Malaysian Airlins MH370 in the Southern Indian Ocean where its speed to and from the isolated search areas enabled it to search double (anecdotally) the area searched by the accompanying P3’s.
That’s where the “focus” comes from.

 

[Redlands18]

One thing though, would Indonesia get cleared for the P-8A or would they have to settle for a version of the P-8I like India?

 

[swerve]

The SAAB Swordfish would have at least the same top speed as the P-8, & should be cheaper, being built on a smaller, cheaper platform - but with a longer range. Potentially, could provide more coverage (time on station, area patrolled) in proportion to cost, with as good a response time.

Less payload, of course, & no internal weapons bay. Probably less capable equipment. But good enough, perhaps.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Just some N219 updates.
An amphibious version of the IPTN/DI N219 was already planned many years ago, but here we see more proof that the development is really in progress.
The maximum range of the N219 was already not impressive compared to the NC212, but with floats it will become only 200 km!
Sadly the music is louder than the voice of the engineer.

Bird-impact/birdstrike tests are just carried out. After the first 1:10 minutes you only get some history and general information about the N219.

 

[tonnyc]

The standard N-219 has a decent operating range for its weight. From what I know, it tries to cut costs by using common metals rather than lighter alloys and composites, resulting in a heavier empty weight compared to the C-212. This is a common trade-off. Cheaper aircraft, but heavier, resulting in less range.

The amphibious capability is a special demand from the Indonesian government and military. I expect it to be a dud commercially, but if the government and military want them, LAPAN, being a national research agency, is bound to provide it while Indonesian Aerospace will adopt a "sure, if you pay for it we'll add them in" attitude. I wouldn't pay much attention to it.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The standard N-219 has a decent operating range for its weight. From what I know, it tries to cut costs by using common metals rather than lighter alloys and composites, resulting in a heavier empty weight compared to the C-212. This is a common trade-off. Cheaper aircraft, but heavier, resulting in less range.

The amphibious capability is a special demand from the Indonesian government and military. I expect it to be a dud commercially, but if the government and military want them, LAPAN, being a national research agency, is bound to provide it while Indonesian Aerospace will adopt a "sure, if you pay for it we'll add them in" attitude. I wouldn't pay much attention to it.

Yes you are right, the range without floats isnt that bad compared to the C408, DHC-6 and Y-12, also the other performance points are actually comparable, and sometimes even slightly better.

 

[Ahmad]

N219 is the second attempt for Indonesia Aerospace to exploit civilian market, the entrance time is also perfect as we are experiencing a boom of E-Commerce business in the country. I believe the plane will be used for cargo up to 70 % of its overall future sales if not more. There was a previous plan from Garuda Indonesia to buy 100 drones from China which relatively has similar price with N 219 for its cargo business. With this Covid 19 things, it will be difficult for Garuda to buy drone from China when it can replace it with N 219 with better cargo capacity.

Previous Letter of Intend from Lion Air to buy 100 N219 planes is also another clue about the potential market of the plane and as we know Lion Air cargo division is quite big with the latest attempt to act like Fed Ex.

 

[Ahmad]

One thing though, would Indonesia get cleared for the P-8A or would they have to settle for a version of the P-8I like India?

I rather see Indonesia will use CN 235 platform instead. Indonesia Aerospace has offered Navy their CN 235 ASW that has been used by Turkish navy. CN 235 is quite decent as ASW plane as it has 11 hours flight endurance.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

I rather see Indonesia will use CN 235 platform instead. Indonesia Aerospace has offered Navy their CN 235 ASW that has been used by Turkish navy. CN 235 is quite decent as ASW plane as it has 11 hours flight endurance.

The HC-144A, which is based on the CN235-300 MP Persuader, has an eight-hour endurance. I expect all CN235 versions have the same amount of internal fuel, so IPTN's CN235-220MPA should also have the same amount of endurance and range.
On the other hand, the additional ASW-equipment on the Turkish MELTEM II, makes the aircraft heavier, and maybe the drag will also increase. Also armament like the AGM-84, AM39 and torpedoes, will decrease the range/endurance even more.

So its all about what fits the airforce, do they prefer for example 3 large heavy expensive aircrafts or 15 smaller aircrafts like the CN235?

One thing though, would Indonesia get cleared for the P-8A or would they have to settle for a version of the P-8I like India?

I really dont know, Indonesia is not a NATO-country, and also not one of america's closed allies. So its questionable if Indonesia is allowed to get the same stuff as the neighbours. Btw is the P-8I really a downgraded version from the P-8A, or just modified according to India's request?

 

[Ahmad]

The HC-144A, which is based on the CN235-300 MP Persuader, has an eight-hour endurance. I expect all CN235 versions have the same amount of internal fuel, so IPTN's CN235-220MPA should also have the same amount of endurance and range.
On the other hand, the additional ASW-equipment on the Turkish MELTEM II, makes the aircraft heavier, and maybe the drag will also increase. Also armament like the AGM-84, AM39 and torpedoes, will decrease the range/endurance even more.

So its all about what fits the airforce, do they prefer for example 3 large heavy expensive aircrafts or 15 smaller aircrafts like the CN235?


I really dont know, Indonesia is not a NATO-country, and also not one of america's closed allies. So its questionable if Indonesia is allowed to get the same stuff as the neighbours. Btw is the P-8I really a downgraded version from the P-8A, or just modified according to India's request?

According to Indonesia Aerospace official website, CN 235 MPA has 11 hours flight endurance.

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CN235-220 aircraft is a proven platform to perform broad spectrum of special missions including Search and Rescue (SAR), Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) control, marine pollution prevention and control, maritime surveillance and security, and Anti-Surface Warfare (ASuW).

From past experiences, a fully equipped CN235-220 MPA can endure over 11 hours maximum, while the time on station at 200 NM is over nine hours.

PT. Dirgantara Indonesia (Persero)

www.indonesian-aerospace.com

 

[Ananda]

really dont know, Indonesia is not a NATO-country, and also not one of america's closed allies. So its questionable if Indonesia is allowed to get the same stuff as the neighbours. Btw is the P-8I really a downgraded version from the P-8A, or just modified according to India's request?

It will depend on what's the intelligence information exchange that will be implemented. If Indonesia agree to share data cooperation with US, then potentially US will give similar equipment in their P-8A. However if we behave more like India, that demand more independence on data gathering. Also want to equip their P-8 with their own equipment or equipment that they are sourcing from supplier that they choose. Then potentially if US agree to supply us with P-8, it will be like India case. P-8I basically tailor made for India own choose.

One thing that TNI-AU already stated in media, they are looking for Surveillance Plane to replace those 3 737-2X9 Surveillance. Thus I believe they will not going to go with CN-235 or C-295 MPA. They already have CN-235 MPA, thus what they need something that can provide not only more flight characteristics of their old 737 Surveillance, but also more capabilities.
There's reasons why 737 platform being choose for P-8. Not only Flight characteristics, but also more space which can provide more room to growth, compare on P-3 platform.

 

[Ananda]

The amphibious capability is a special demand from the Indonesian government and military. I expect it to be a dud commercially

Agree, N-219 Amphibious will not going to be commercial success. The demand for Amphibious Commercial service in Indonesia is low, eventough Indonesia is archipelago nation. There's company in Bali that provide commercial amphibious service, using Twin Otter Amphibious. However their business only catering for very niche market, of high paying tourists that want to go to more secluded private islands resort.

Thus it's only for Niche Market, and I don't see DI/IAe will not going to make money on this amphibious version, even if the conventional landing N-219 gain some domestic market share. The only way DI will get money for this Amphibious version, if they can gain export market share.
Problem for export is with reputation of DI/IAe for their after sales support, which is not what you can call 'stable' historically. Thus remain to be seen how they are going to gain export market against established and proven model like Twin Otter.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Actually there are not so many DHC-6 operators in Indonesia. Air Born, Airfast, Aviastar, Trigana...maybe some more?
And most NC212 and BN2 Islander operators are bankrupt.
So i expect the largest operator will be Disnerbal to replace their old GAF N22s and maybe other TNI/POLRI and government agencies.

 

[Ananda]

Actually there are not so many DHC-6 operators in Indonesia. Air Born, Airfast, Aviastar, Trigana...maybe some more?

It used to be more Twin Otter operator during Soeharto era than now. Twin Otter class aircraft was and still is appropriate aircraft in remote area of Borneo, Sulawesin and Papua and other underdeveloped Islands. Merpati Air used to be one of the big users of this type of plane in that era.

However one of the reasons of decreasing population of those Light Planes class, is also due to improvement in Airport infrastructure. The number of Airports with 1500-2000+ Meter run ways are increasing. This means increasingly numbers of Airports that used only able being served by Light Planes and Regional Turboprop, now can take Regional Jets or even large Single Aisle of 737 and 320 class.

Thus the class of Light Planes like Twin Otter or this N219 shares in Indonesian domestic flight market, will be more limited in future. Not those light Airplanes will be gone, they will be market for them. However they're getting smaller. The more infrastructure being build, the less the need of those Light Planes.

The reason for N219 is to regain back DI/IAe proficiency after IPTN projects of N250 and N2130 being put in the box due to 1998 Asian Financial crisis. No more no less. DI and Government it self already clear on this in the media.

Domestic market perhaps at best will turn out to be 100-150 firm order for N219, and it's enough to create some margin for DI to enable them to move on next projects. I take this claim of 200-300 captive market for N219 as grain of salt. Most of those are still MOU stages and not yet confirmed/firm order. To make money for this Aircraft, just like De Haviland Canada do with Twin Otter is to find export market. That will be the real challenge for DI.

 

[Ananda]

AS Sebut Indonesia Belum Bisa Miliki Jet Tempur F-35

Indonesia dinilai belum layak memiliki jet tempur F-35 buatan Lockheed Martin karena perlu memiliki seri 4 dan 4,5 terlebih dahulu.

m.cnnindonesia.com

Indonesian Ambassador in US told media that F-35 will not be available for Indonesia at this moment. He stated that waiting list for country like Indonesia for F-35 is close to a decade. Also Indonesia need to do it step by step with 4.5th Gen Fighters, before entering 5th Gen like F-35.

For that US still offer latest Gen of F-16. Also in the article he talk about offer of F-16 C/D of Blk 32. Seems this's in line with the 'rumours' that asside brand new F-16V, US will offer some ex USAF F-16 to augment the Fleet.

LM before already implied that chances for Indonesia getting F-35 must wait until at least 2030. This's practically repeat what LM already mentioned that TNI-AU must build it's capacities first with Gen 4.5 Fighters and supporting tech, before move to Gen 5.

The truth is TNI-AU knows this, that's why they never ask for F-35 but instead ask for F-16V. MinDef ask this publicly seems more on Political bargain but also they want more clear signal for US on what's the process on getting one if possible.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Its of course a polite way to say "You guys do not deserve the F-35, you have to lag behind our close allies, which you are not."

But like Ananda already pointed out, TNI-AU never requested for the F-35, its something from the imagination of some politicians.

The chance that second hand F-16C/D Block 32 are ordered before 2024 is already small, let alone the F-16V Block 72. So its better if the politicians not start to talk about the F-35.