Indonesian Aero News

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I dont think the US is willing to upgrade Pakistans Block 15s and 52s to 70/72 standard. They know if they do that, their highest and most advanced technology will end up by the chinese.
Likely but I guess an upgrade depends on what the current POTUS wants. F-35s to the UAE is another contentious decision.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Correct me if I'm wrong but I have always assumed that V upgrades done onto older air frames only include avionics/internal systems. Not structural ones such as the CFT's (barring SLEP), which to be fair isn't that much of a concern if you have enough tankers to support them.

Either way, personally having a large (and well maintained and trained) fleet of F-16's equipped with SABR AESA's and standoff weaponry is already a very formidable deterrent against a lot of notional threats.
The F-16 upgrades to Block 70 - 72 include the CFT. The conversion is a full SLEP because it extends the life of the airframe by 4,000 hours to 12,000 hours. The idea of the CFT is to free up two or three hard points for other stores. You are not always going to have tanker support and in any conflict, tankers along with AEW&C are high value targets. Never ever assume that the enemy will fight the way that you have planned or intended. They play by their own rule book.
 

Ahmad

Active Member
There are 9 NC 212 planes order from Indonesian Armed Force, similar like what I have said in previous post in this thread. For international order, Alman Helvast said Thailand has ordered again one NC 212 and there is another one NC 212 ordered by US company operating in Congo according to PT Dirgantara Director statement stated in PTDI anniversary celebration.


According to PTDI Director, the company is still relatively healthy financially during this pandemic period where large aerospace companies like Boeing and Airbus suffer from huge financial lost that make them need to lay off many of their workers. PTDI is still able to pay normal salaries to all of their worker without any reduction and keep all of their employee. Alhamdulillah.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
There are 9 NC 212 planes currently under construction in PTDI for Indonesian Armed Force, similar like what I have said in previous post in this thread. For international order, Alman Helvast said Thailand has ordered again one NC 212 and there is another one NC 212 ordered by Congo according to PT Dirgantara Director statement stated in PTDI anniversary celebration.


According to PTDI Director, the company is still relatively healthy financially during this pandemic period where large aerospace companies like Boeing and Airbus suffer from huge financial lost that make them need to lay off many of their workers. PTDI is still able to pay normal salaries to all their worker without any reduction and keep all of their employee. Alhamdulillah.
Thanks for sharing the good news.
I think the main reason that IPTN suffers not much under the Covid-19, is because IPTN does not depend from airline orders.

Many NC212s from TNI-AU are old first generation Aviocars, so big chance that these 9 NC212i will replace the old ones.

Here a video which covers more about the Falcon Star - eMLU ceremony.

Btw, who is that chinese looking man in batik?
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
think the main reason that IPTN suffers not much under the Covid-19, is because IPTN does not depend from airline orders.
Also they continue got support directly and indirectly through captive contracts and government capital injection. DI is not can be called already independent commercially. Financially other SOE Defense companies like LEN, PINDAD and Dahana is more healthy due to their more reliable commercial business outside Defense.

DI also has "commercial" contracts, but honestly as Aerospace business, Garuda MRO Subsidiary GMF has more business and commercially more independent than DI ever been.


Btw, who is that chinese looking man in batik?
That's Bapenas Head (so he has cabinet position) Soeharso Monoarfa. Bapenas head come to the ceremony since all strategic projects (which this F-16 upgrade project being considered), involved Bapenas.
 

Ahmad

Active Member
Any one knows of why we are still testing Black Eagle UAV model under wind tunnel test ??? We are supposed to start manufacturing the drone instead of doing design testing again. Or there will be some changes in the design which means detail design must be worked again ???

http://instagr.am/p/CEicYw8A-ma/
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Also they continue got support directly and indirectly through captive contracts and government capital injection. DI is not can be called already independent commercially. Financially other SOE Defense companies like LEN, PINDAD and Dahana is more healthy due to their more reliable commercial business outside Defense.

DI also has "commercial" contracts, but honestly as Aerospace business, Garuda MRO Subsidiary GMF has more business and commercially more independent than DI ever been.

That's Bapenas Head (so he has cabinet position) Soeharso Monoarfa. Bapenas head come to the ceremony since all strategic projects (which this F-16 upgrade project being considered), involved Bapenas.
Thank you very much. Ive heard often the name "BAPPENAS", but i didnt even know the purpose of this government institution.

Any one knows of why we are still testing Black Eagle UAV model under wind tunnel test ??? We are supposed to start manufacturing the drone instead of doing design testing again. Or there will be some changes in the design which means detail design must be worked again ???

http://instagr.am/p/CEicYw8A-ma/
Maybe design refinements for the first prototype which should be under construction now.
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
Any changes on the design, will be bring to wind tunnel to test the aerodynamics behavior. It's normal. Do remember the prototype that being displayed before by DI actually is just a mock-up and not a flying prototype.

Even though there's flying prototype already, they will still back to wind tunnel for refinement. Even Boeing during this MAX modifications also report testing the models to see how aerodynamics behavior changes due to adjustment on the system. That and hundreds hours on Sim's.
 

Ahmad

Active Member
How about the IPTN Wulung UAV?
It already has military TC. Is this project on hold or just completely cancelled?


The development has been completed and has reached mass production stage. It has been bought by Armed Force (Air Force maybe), but not much. It is BPPT project where the manufacturing is given to PTDI. At least from this project LEN mission system is developed that later can be used for our MALE UAV. BPPT also keep developing small UAV after making Wulung.

Wulung UAV using LEN mission system

1598900677170.png

 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Just read this...
...and i directly start to think. "Perbaiki = repair/correct, right?
It almost sounds like he just got the brilliant idea to perform maintenance on our aircrafts instead of throwing them away at the moment defects start to appear.

Maybe the journalists misunderstood minister Prabowo, or he explained it in the wrong way. What he maybe means is that he plans to upgrade/MLU all existing aircrafts, like TNI-AU did and do with the F-16s. I dont know how expensive and complicated it is to upgrade our Su-27s and Su-30s to Su-27SM2 and Su-30SME level. And i dont think real complete MLU-packages for the Hawk Mk109/209 exist, and even if it exists, a Hawk upgrade/MLU is probably not such a good idea.

And now this part:
"Sebelumnya, Prabowo sempat dikritik terkait rencana pembelian pesawat jet tempur bekas Eurofighter Typhoon dari Austria. Selain rawan kecelakaan, pembelian pesawat jenis ini dinilai hanya menghamburkan keuangan negara karena tak sinkron dengan peralatan yang sudah ada."

I dont know what the idea or purpose is behind this, but or this 'professional CNN-reporter' believes online incorrect (fanboy)information or he just want to damage the image of West-European jetfighters.

But this article sounds a little bit like its written by a Jokowow-person: to damage the image of Probowo and to praise our wise and patriotic president.

"Presiden Jokowi sendiri sebelumnya mendorong Prabowo untuk belanja alutsista, terutama dari dalam negeri, untuk mendongkrak penyerapan anggaran dan ekonomi dalam negeri. "
 
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Ahmad

Active Member
But this article sounds a little bit like its written by a Jokowow-person: to damage the image of Probowo and to praise our wise and patriotic president.

"Presiden Jokowi sendiri sebelumnya mendorong Prabowo untuk belanja alutsista, terutama dari dalam negeri, untuk mendongkrak penyerapan anggaran dan ekonomi dalam negeri. "
he he :p

There is report from Jane saying that Prabowo try to get 20 billion USD foreign loan for period of 2020-2024 and currently under examination from Bappenas. I think we are not going to get such big loan under present situation. The time is actually not that right. Jokowi administration IMO will not approve that, but some amount of it is possible to finance 3 submarines and 2 Iver that has relation with our defense industries (PT PAL/PT LEN).

I think with the statement from newspaper that you posted here, there is huge possibility that we are not going to buy any fighter until 2024 period. Fighter acquisition until 2024 is very related with foreign source, so it will get back class due to current Pandemic situation. Prabowo will be accussed as not sensitive and not pro our own defense industry that will make him unpopular politically. While after 2024 period with KFX/IFX program is expected to start its manufacturing phase inshaAllah, there is big chance that Air Force will be in buying spree mode because there is national industry participation and I think any President that favor IFX will get huge political support.

I think nationalism and favoring our own industry in term of weapon acquisition is a very popular sentiment now. And there is support from media as well for that sentiment. You can see how popular Youtube channel when they talk about Maung, our third submarine and other defense equipment that is produced or has relation with our defense industry.
 
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Ananda

Well-Known Member
While after 2024 period with KFX/IFX program is expected to start its manufacturing phase inshaAllah, there is big chance that Air Force will be in buying spree mode because there is national industry participation and I think any President that favor IFX will get huge political support
As usual @Ahmad always optimistic on IFX. Before that, Indonesia must show the money first. Indonesia still only pay 20% of the commitment now. You say there's no money for new Fighters during the period of 2020-24. Well in that case, how are sure that there will be money to pay up the rest of Indonesia shares of commitment ?

If Indonesia does not pay up within that period, then the KAI will cut Indonesia from the program. Don't think that by putting IFX name in the banner during prototype ceremony, it's a guarantee that IFX program will still continue. IFX program will continue if Indonesia pay up the rest of commitment fund. ROK and KAI still want Indonesia in the program, well there's no secret on that. However doesn't mean they will continue keep Indonesia in the program if there is no further payments.

None of us including those forumers in the Indonesian forums, and blogspot or media are decision makers. This COVID situation will delay many Defense procurement for a year, or two, or more. Depends on how big the bills need to be covered for COVID. This will affect nearly all nation. However there's no decision yet on which Defense program will be prioritize and which one will delay or even cancelled.

Why are so sure that the money for KFX will not be switched to other Fighters program ?
The decision makers like I said on several posts before can decide to take on other fighter program that still can involved local Industry.

You always think this IFX is the only fighter program to involve local Industry. Well it's not. They can decide to 'say' buy two squadrons of second hand F-16, or Eurofighter and procured upgrade modules and doing upgrade locally by DI and TNI-AU technicians. This will still can be considered tech transfer program with local Industry. Moreover it still can be politically sold to the most of the publics.

They can also decided to go with license manufacturing other Fighter. Airbus already offered that for Eurofighter final assembly line in DI facilities. This will not be much differed with IFX cause as Junior Partner, DI basically only doing license manufacturing for KFX and call it IFX.
Not much different with what Italian and Japanese final assembly facilities for F-35.
Is Indonesia have prepared another Investment to make IFX considerable different with KFX ?
I don't think so, DI will used all the components being prepared on KFX for the 5th prototype that plan to be build by DI. Thus again it's not much different with license Manufacturing.

All I'm saying, so far only rumours that circulate. No final decision being make yet. The money will be tight for next couple of years due to COVID, and all Defense projects will have similar chance to potentially facing delay and possibly cancel. IFX is not excluded from that potential.
In the meantime KFX will keep move on regardless what's Indonesia decision.
 
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Su-27s and Su-30s to Su-27SM2 and Su-30SME level.
Can they even upgrade the Flankers whilst CAATSA is active? I can understand upgrading all the F-16's with newer avionics and integrating new weapons but at the end of the day it will still fall short of of the "11 Squadrons" goal.

Seems like the are pretty much stuck on having to get new planes regardless what path they take.
 
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Ananda

Well-Known Member
they even upgrade the Flankers whilst CAATSA is active?
I think some US officials already put some statement that CAATSA will not hindered for Countries that already have existing Russian assets to be maintained. This's seems aim for countries like India, Vietnam and Indonesia.

Upgrade packages can be considered as maintenance, I believe. However the question is also what kind of upgrade packages that Sukhoi has. Seems they do not have established packages like LM do. Thus it's means more tailor to each order. While it's seems nice, it also means it's potentially more expensive packages.

Getting new plane is 'politically' preferable, but it also much more 'politically' sellable to involve local Defense Industry. Thus upgrade programs that being done locally with local Industry involvement, will be more 'selleable' compared buying new without any involvement to local Industry (just like previous Flankers deal).

However this COVID situation already created huge increase in Government debt being used for non 'productive' activities. This's happen to all countries at this moment. Point is this will reduce Indonesian government abilities to take further International Credit Loans for couple years or more. Thus I don't know how much the credit line that still can be given to Defense procurement.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
he he :p

There is report from Jane saying that Prabowo try to get 20 billion USD foreign loan for period of 2020-2024 and currently under examination from Bappenas. I think we are not going to get such big loan under present situation. The time is actually not that right. Jokowi administration IMO will not approve that, but some amount of it is possible to finance 3 submarines and 2 Iver that has relation with our defense industries (PT PAL/PT LEN).

I think with the statement from newspaper that you posted here, there is huge possibility that we are not going to buy any fighter until 2024 period. Fighter acquisition until 2024 is very related with foreign source, so it will get back class due to current Pandemic situation. Prabowo will be accussed as not sensitive and not pro our own defense industry that will make him unpopular politically. While after 2024 period with KFX/IFX program is expected to start its manufacturing phase inshaAllah, there is big chance that Air Force will be in buying spree mode because there is national industry participation and I think any President that favor IFX will get huge political support.

I think nationalism and favoring our own industry in term of weapon acquisition is a very popular sentiment now. And there is support from media as well for that sentiment. You can see how popular Youtube channel when they talk about Maung, our third submarine and other defense equipment that is produced or has relation with our defense industry.
On most points you are right, but as Ananda already said, IPTN's participation in the KFX-project will be only possible if the current administration pays the required 20%. And because its quite obvious that this current administration (PDI-P topmanagement) want to get rid of this "SBY-project", its very unlikely it will happen

However this COVID situation already created huge increase in Government debt being used for non 'productive' activities. This's happen to all countries at this moment. Point is this will reduce Indonesian government abilities to take further International Credit Loans for couple years or more. Thus I don't know how much the credit line that still can be given to Defense procurement.
Yes thats the problem with this administration, for six years not much was spent on defence, and now Covid give them a good reason to keep it like that. So personally i do not expect "spectaculair acquisitions" (the things TNI really needs to defend Laut Natuna) until 2024.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I think some US officials already put some statement that CAATSA will not hindered for Countries that already have existing Russian assets to be maintained. This's seems aim for countries like India, Vietnam and Indonesia.

Upgrade packages can be considered as maintenance, I believe.
I would be careful about assuming that. The current Administration may have a narrow definition of what is maintenance and what is not, and history has shown that the current Administration can be somewhat unique with its definitions. It's all about the wording.
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
True, below I got this article from Flight Global on how LM create standardise packages to help boosted F-16 (I presume F-16V) as part of their attempt to prepare potential customer for F-35 in future.


On matter of CAATSA, they understand some countries (in this article they specifically stated Indonesia as example case) quite concern as US using CAATSA to corner/force potential customer. Point is, they also try to convince potential customer to switch from Russian Fighters more on the merit of F-16 standard packages which will open more to standard common cost structure for operation and maintenance support.

Thus CAATSA clearly open to interpretation and how to lobby US on finer legal things.
 
I think some US officials already put some statement that CAATSA will not hindered for Countries that already have existing Russian assets to be maintained. This's seems aim for countries like India, Vietnam and Indonesia.

Upgrade packages can be considered as maintenance, I believe. However the question is also what kind of upgrade packages that Sukhoi has. Seems they do not have established packages like LM do. Thus it's means more tailor to each order. While it's seems nice, it also means it's potentially more expensive packages.

Getting new plane is 'politically' preferable, but it also much more 'politically' sellable to involve local Defense Industry. Thus upgrade programs that being done locally with local Industry involvement, will be more 'selleable' compared buying new without any involvement to local Industry (just like previous Flankers deal).

However this COVID situation already created huge increase in Government debt being used for non 'productive' activities. This's happen to all countries at this moment. Point is this will reduce Indonesian government abilities to take further International Credit Loans for couple years or more. Thus I don't know how much the credit line that still can be given to Defense procurement.
Adding on to what @ngatimozart said, what can be interpreted as "maintenance" can also change depending on whether or not the Trump Administration has an interest in having Indonesia operate/buy more American fighters. Stopping operators from getting spare parts through CAATSA can be considered overkill and a hard sell, but limiting what operators can upgrade and having their assets naturally become obsolete is easier to sell politically.

In short, there's a lot of factors and parameters to consider on whether or not the Flankers can be upgraded.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Adding on to what @ngatimozart said, what can be interpreted as "maintenance" can also change depending on whether or not the Trump Administration has an interest in having Indonesia operate/buy more American fighters. Stopping operators from getting spare parts through CAATSA can be considered overkill and a hard sell, but limiting what operators can upgrade and having their assets naturally become obsolete is easier to sell politically.

In short, there's a lot of factors and parameters to consider on whether or not the Flankers can be upgraded.
Yes, and to stop the delivery of spareparts, which will cause grounded aircrafts, will make Indonesia and other countries think twice to buy american defence equipment.
Dictating other countries what they exactly have to do and then threatening with embargo's everytime other countries do not completely follow up your commands/orders will make you an unreliable weapons provider.
 
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