Indonesian Aero News

[Ananda]

So far the information available still indicated that the refurbishment work for 24 ex USAF F-16 C/D being conducted in Ogden. However since according to Jane's the BAe System North America got the contract for refurbishment job on existing 10 F-16 A/B, it's possible the job for those 24 can be sourced to BAe if indeed Ogden facility being inactive. After all the refurbishment job for existing 10 should be result on similar standar with the work on the other 24.

The progress so far in here being indicated the first 8 refurbished F-16 will enter service by next year.

 

[Gadjah Mada]

I read on RIA Novosti about Vietnamese Su-30 Mk2: Russia to Deliver 12 Su-30 Fighter Jets to Vietnam

It was a surprise and a great shock to me to know that with $450 million, Vietnam got 12 Flankers while Indonesia only 6. If I was not mistaken the price was not including missiles, etc.

Does anybody have more detailed information on this?

 

[Feanor]

I read on RIA Novosti about Vietnamese Su-30 Mk2: Russia to Deliver 12 Su-30 Fighter Jets to Vietnam

It was a surprise and a great shock to me to know that with $450 million, Vietnam got 12 Flankers while Indonesia only 6. If I was not mistaken the price was not including missiles, etc.

Does anybody have more detailed information on this?

Uh. There is no actual number. There is an anonymous estimate that the deal could be worth 450-600 million USD. It's not entirely clear whats included in either contract.

 

[Ananda]

http://www.baomoi.com/Anh-doc-Nga-chuyen-Su30MK2-moi-cho-Viet-Nam/119/8334726.epi

According to this, those 12 SU-30 Mk2 costing Vietnam around USD 1 bio. I may be wrong, only use Google translate.

Still the cost on contract can be vary to sources. For example; DSCA stated that 8 Apache that the Indonesian wants to procured, the overall contract can costs up to USD 1.3 Bio. However according to local media Tempo that quoting a Parliament member, stated that the procurement budget for 8 Apache will be allocated around IDR 3.1 Trillion or USD 300-310 mio (depend on exchange rate). Which seems in line with Defence Minister statement (on different occasion), that Indonesian Mindef bargain US on procured the Apache for less than USD 40 Mio per aircraft.

Indonesia-Amerika Susun Kontrak Jual-Beli Apache | nasional | Tempo.co

Point is, the wholle overall package can be vary on each contract, depends on the quotation on sources, which also can be depend whether the contract only for the aircraft, or allready included the support, training, and armament.

Any way, got this picture from Korean forum, on Indonesian T-50 (or TA-50) being prepared on KAI facility.

 

[Ananda]

StarTribune.com Mobile | News, weather, sports

Seems official from US Sec-defense. The deal for 8 Apache with longbow radars will be around USD 500 bio. According local sources, the deal included training, and support infrastructure. The local media seems indicating the aircraft it self will be around USD 40 mio per piece.

Hope Rupiah will be stabilise soon, so the deal can came through.

Add, from BBC:
BBC News - US to sell helicopters to Indonesia in $500m deal

So USD 500 mio for the Aircraft, radar, training, and support/maintanance. Nothing on the armaments, so as usual on Indonesian procurement the weapons package will be on seperate and probably much later contract .

 

[Toptob]

I read about this and went like: okay... hey... HEY... what the smuck! WHY?
Didn't they just buy some hinds a few years ago. Those seem like some pretty nice assets. Much more useful to Indonesia if we look at the robustness and the possible tasks the machines will be performing.
I have no doubt these longbows will be much more advanced than the hinds. But is that necessary for the TNA-AD and will they even be effective within their organization, especially because the fleet is so small? And knowing a little about Indonesian defense procurement it seems unlikely that they will expand the fleet in the foreseeable future.
Also wouldn't it have been a much better plan to expand the hind fleet (making operations more efficient), and with the surplus budget make upgrades to the fleet and the support infrastructure, stock up on spares. Now they have to pay for more training infrastructure and work with machines designed in different design cultures and languages which adds even more complexity.
So is this a smart plan to replace the Mi-35s, or a shortsighted one which will further impair the Indonesians capacity to operate and support their rotary wing assets?

 

[Ananda]

So is this a smart plan to replace the Mi-35s, or a shortsighted one which will further impair the Indonesians capacity to operate and support their rotary wing assets?

The idea that I have seen so far in here, to put the Apache and Mi-35 in one 'hybrid' sq. Yes, after this batch of 8 Apache, seems no other plan for further procurement of Apache, yet. So far Mindef and TNI-AD seems serious to try this hybrid Apache and Mi-35 concept on one sq.

Seems they already weighed plus and minus of the concept. However so far from what I gather :

1. Apache is very expensive to procured and maintained. However the Apache is state of the art, and will provide the Army with the tools to catch-up on technological bases the latest operational threshold of the attack helicopter environment. Moreover, regardless what being said, that the procurement of Apache is not have string attached on the operational environment within TNI-AD operations. They know very well on US and Western sensitivity in using their originated weapons system for COIN operation like in Papua.

2. Mi-35 on the other hand is more versatile for Indonesian Army requiarement on COIN operation. While much less on political sensitivity from Russian side, means using Mi-35 in Papua, will be more likely happen compared to Apache. The Mi-35 is more robust and flexible assets compared to Apache for the Army COIN operation that they are used to have. However the Army did have complained on the Russian support on maintenance. DI/IAe from what I gather conduct some discussion with the Russian for further improvement on Mi-17 and Mi-35 maintenance locally. Still at this moment until the deal with DI came though, the Army still considered the maintenance for their Mi fleets relative expensive from what the Rosoboron promised in the beginning.

Thus considered limitations on political, budget perspective and operational capabilities, TNI-AD so far seems try to choose operating their attack helicopter gunship platform on hybrid sq. Whether this going to be the ideal solution for TNI-AD, will remain to be seen.

 

[kensama]

Ananda, although the Apache is expensive. the maintenance and operational cost of these bird are considered cheaper compared to the Hind's. the Mi-35 are cheap but as mention in the previous news, TNI AD had to send those Hind's to Ukraine or Rusia for engine MRO (maintenance, Repair, & Overhaul). plus the price of spareparts are quite volatile and expensive. on the other hand the Apache although quite expensive but the maintenance and sparepart are easier to acquire and relatively cheaper compare to the Hind's. plus PT.NTP, a subsidiary of Indonesian aerospace have the ability to maintain and repair the T-700/CT-7 engine used by the Apache (CN-235 used similar engine) thus simplyfy the maintenance. CMIIW

as for the reason of using both the Hind's and the apache i agree with you, it seems TNI AD will used these bird for different purposes. Although the Hind and Apache both capable for COIN and anti armor operation, it seems TNI AD will only focused the Hind for COIN/anti-personel (Gunship) and Apache for anti-armor (attack heli). so it will be used for different job and function like using machine gun with sniper rifle for different task.

the use of attack helicopter's in Papua is unlikely. too much OVERKILL. although the separatism in Papua is a problem but it is not that much of a concern. the intensity of the conflict in those area are very low and only happen in some part of Papua and those problem could be handled by the Police. it is not as bad as what those overhype and overexaggerate media told us.

 

[Ananda]

Yes, that's why I have put in my previous post that the Army considered the maintanance cost of Mi-35 is more expensive than what Rosoboron promised when the deal for procurement conducted. The hope is for DI/IAe can come to an agreement with Russian manufacture for conducting maintenance locally for the Army Mi-35 and Mi-17 fleet. This being hope by the Army to able reducing their Mi helicopters maintenance bill considerably.

As for the relative more expensive maintenance of Apache relative to Mi-35, I must admitted taking this rather loosely from some comment in Media from the Army brass few years ago. I do not have the exact numbers to compare with. I do agree on the T-700/CT-7 maintenance can be done locally since this is an engine with relative large population on used, however from what I gather large part of maintenance bills for a sophisticated attack helicopter like Apache come not just from engine and other mechanical gears, but come from electronics and sensors.

This is different with the like of Mi-35 (at least the ones in Indonesian Army inventory) which do not equiped with much sophisticated electronics and sensors, thus the large maintenance bills will come mostly in the mechanical area. In short if this is a car, we're comparing the maintance of Toyota Hilux against to Range Rover. So, for me I will be rather carefull to put a picture that Indonesia can reduce the maintenance bill of Apache on the basis of the commonality of the engine, since other factor of Apache maintenance can also contribute significant bills.

Btw, do you have information on the actual number of Mi-35 at this moment. Some info suggest of 8, however from information that I gather so far only 5 that has been delivered to TNI-AD. Some suggest the other 3 Mi-35 order has been switch for more MI-17.

The info on this hybrid attack helicopter sq for the Army suggest it will be equiped with 8 Apache and 8 Mi-35. Still where this ekstra 3 comming from ? Since the current inventory only 5 Mi-35 and no new order for Mi-35 being contracted yet.

Any way I put Papua for attack helicopter usage in Indonesia just an example. This only show that political sensitivity wise the Army will not have much trouble on operating Mi-35 in Papua, should the necessity arrise. However in my oppinion, the same flexibility can not be in the case of Apache. Still I do agree, operating the attack helicopter in Papua will be much over kill and unnecessary.

 

[Vegan-Zombie]

I'm guessing the Blackhawks are out of the picture now then? Personally earlier on I thought it made much more sense to have a sort of 2 Helicopter forces (1 west and 1 east) for different types operations. but now I'm just as more confused than ever. My biggest fear right now that Indonesia doesn't turn into Saudi Arabia with it's arms being from a ridiculous amount of different countries...

 

[Ananda]

Indonesian AF will not turn to kind of Saudi's AF. We simply do not have that kind of budget anyway.

Still the pattern of procurement already occured. The Fighters for some time in the future will be focus on F-16 and SU-30. Despite some speculations by local forumers and analyst in here on the F-5 replacement, the sign for me is quite clear that any replacement for F-5 will be F-16 as first choice or SU-30 as second choice. Hawk 109/209 will be kept in the inventory for at least for another decade. In short if any further procurement in fighters occured, the sign so far indicating on F-16 or Su-30.

Transport for medium-heavy will focus on C-130, and EADS will got light-medium transport with CN-295, CN-235, and CN-212, with possibility of N-219 if the prototype development goes ahead as schedulled. EADS already give IAe/DI the rights for 295 in Asia-Pacific, and 212 already moved the entire productions from Sevile Spain to Bandung Indonesia.

Yes, the danger of having too many types still there, if not carefull. Still so does to momentum for standarizing the types. Indonesia will not put their eggs in one basket anymore. However, I don't think they will sources from that many suppliers. Besides, the most important is the availability of the spare parts. Afterall, the Super Tucano even come from Brazil, but the components mostly US made.

Btw, Blackhawks seems never being entirely seriously considered. Blackhawks and Super Cobra being put, to complied with some parliament members whim. While at the same time the administration lobby quietly with those factions for Apache. It is back to politics as ussual. Anyway, the President will goes to poland and Russia soon. Locsl forum already buzzing with potential getting Polish made Blackhawks as replacement for stalled contract for Sokol and Skytruck. Well some tine local forum speculations can lead to something..will see.

Off course this can change after 2014. For instance, if the current political factions win 2014, the US and West origin assets can made larger portions on procurement relative to Russian origin. However if the oppositions wins, there probably will want more Russian procurement, but I still see them maintain US, Western origin assets. Still both of them agreed that politically any procurement has to benefit local industry.

 

[John Newman]

Btw, Blackhawks seems never being entirely seriously considered. Blackhawks and Super Cobra being put, to complied with some parliament members whim. While at the same time the administration lobby quietly with those factions for Apache. It is back to politics as ussual. Anyway, the President will goes to poland and Russia soon. Locsl forum already buzzing with potential getting Polish made Blackhawks as replacement for stalled contract for Sokol and Skytruck. Well some tine local forum speculations can lead to something..will see.

Talking of Blackhawks, how about this as an idea, yes it's just a 'thought bubble' on my behalf and out of left field, but I wonder what we here in Australia are doing to do with the 50 Blackhawks and Seahawks when they retire?

I remember at the time of the competition for the replacement of the RAN's Seahawks, 'Team Romeo' came up with an offer to set up a facility here to re-manufacture the retired airframes and then on-sell to the international market. It still remains to be seen if this will ever happen or not.

If they do, (personally I hope we do get a reasonable and fair market price for them), but as we have seen recently, Indonesia is receiving 9 ex-RAAF C130H (four for free and the other 5 on the cheap), so I wonder if Indonesia will have any interest in the retired Australian Army Blackhawks and maybe also the retired RAN Seahawks too?

Anyway, as I said, just a random thought.

 

[Ananda]

@John, the problem is whether TNI has place for blackhawks or not. The Army (TNI-AD) already show their interest for blackhawks for some time. However due to budget considerations and local industry (DI/IAe) concern, they got Mi-17 and Bell 412. While the AF already focus on Cougar as follow on of Super Puma.

This pattern already shown. As I said before, whoever win in 2014, they will politically must support local industry concern. DI already have good relations with EADS and Bell. Mi with support from Rosoboron already have foothold with Indonesian military and politics (especially with opposition factions). However Sikorsky did not.

Is it matter ?, well look at C-27 case. The AF clearly preferred that to C-295 due to its commonality on engine and operational environment with C-130. However since EADS have strong relations with DI, then C-295 being choosen. Not that C-295 is inferior to C-27, since both have plus and minus, but the situations show local industry concern did and do have strong influence.

Buying ex RAAF C-130H is different matter, since Indonesian AF is a long time users of C-130. Getting those 9 ex RAAF C-130H will fit well with their operational and maintenance environment. With current TNI-AU C-130H sq in Jakarta, plus the current C-130B sq in Malang East Java (being modified at this moment to H standard), the ex RAAF C-130H will be slotted for a new third C-130 sq in Makasar Sulawesi.

The question then, what will be the replacement for the C-130. The C-130B was acquired during Soekarno era. Indonesia is the first user outside US on C-130B. Eventhough those B currently being modified on the Airframe and engine for H standard, eventually after 2020+ they need to be replaced. Will it be J variants or A-400 ? Well again despite TNI-AU strong liking to C-130 family, still considering EADS strong relations with DI/IAe, A-400 do have strong possibility as replacement.

In short, despite strong interest from the Army for the Blackhawks, I don't see TNI will move to Blackhawks environment. I could be wrong off course, but the pattern on current local industry concern and current operational TNI environment doesn't indicating place for blackhawks on the inventory.

 

[ADMk2]

Buying ex RAAF C-130H is different matter, since Indonesian AF is a long time users of C-130. Getting those 9 ex RAAF C-130H will fit well with their operational and maintenance environment. With current TNI-AU C-130H sq in Jakarta, plus the current C-130B sq in Malang East Java (being modified at this moment to H standard), the ex RAAF C-130H will be slotted for a new third C-130 sq in Makasar Sulawesi.

The question then, what will be the replacement for the C-130. The C-130B was acquired during Soekarno era. Indonesia is the first user outside US on C-130B. Eventhough those B currently being modified on the Airframe and engine for H standard, eventually after 2020+ they need to be replaced. Will it be J variants or A-400 ? Well again despite TNI-AU strong liking to C-130 family, still considering EADS strong relations with DI/IAe, A-400 do have strong possibility as replacement.

A400m would seem to be almost tailor-made. It's expensive true, but all brand-new airlifters are and it provides a strategic airlift capability (of sorts) that a C-130 sized airlifter can not, plus it has latent air to air refuelling capability already plumbed in.

A 3 tier force of C-295, C-130H and A400m would seem to be a very strong and balanced airlift force for the TNI-AU.

 

[Ananda]

A400m would seem to be almost tailor-made. It's expensive true, but all brand-new airlifters are and it provides a strategic airlift capability (of sorts) that a C-130 sized airlifter can not, plus it has latent air to air refuelling capability already plumbed in.

A 3 tier force of C-295, C-130H and A400m would seem to be a very strong and balanced airlift force for the TNI-AU.

Yes, but like you said, A-400 is expensive. TNI now can not afford all brand new fleet, thus they have to balance between brand new ones and the used but refurbished ones. They bought C-295 brand new ones, but as compensation choose for modified existing C-130 and additional used but refurbished C-130 to augment life time of their C-130 fleet.

Same thing with fighters, brand new flankers but as compensation modified existing F-16 plus additional refurbished ones. A-400 currently seems asking too much on the budget, moreover with economic crisis pintch begin to be fell by Asian including Indonesia, the cost of A-400 seems become more unattainable.

Even with potential Germany and Spain reportedly going to sell some of their committed A-400, I don't think they will sell it with much bargain, considering it's brand new ones. Sometimes I fell it's EADS bad luck on timing, with much of their potential customers now already in the crisis (Europe), or begin to pintched by crisis (Asia).

 

[tonnyc]

Ananda has pretty much hit the nail on TNI's situation.

Australia may want to make the offer to Philippine instead. The Philippine Navy's in the process of procuring 2 Strategic Sealift Vessels to be delivered 2016-2017. They're also still looking for 2 more frigates, which presumably will also include helicopter capability. Assuming that everything goes well (which is always a big if when it comes to Philippine military procurement), there will be a need for maritime helicopters at around those years. The PN already contracted Augusta-Westland for 3 maritime version of AW-109 plus 2 optioned, so the Seahawks will have to compete against the idea of simply procuring more maritime AW-109, but that and the Seahawks are in different class altogether.

No idea about whether Philippine will want the Blackhawks. They went with Sokol W-3, but then the current president criticized his predecessor's decision. What that means remains to be seen. They're also in the process of bidding out procurement of UH-1s (I see that the bid opening is this Friday). It's possible that by the time the Blackhawks are retired, the Philippine will have fulfilled their immediate utility helicopter needs.

 

[Ananda]

Yonhapnews Agency - Mobile

KAI begin to send Indonesian ordered T-50, which carried designation T-50i. Got some pictured on the first batch of T-50i being send from local forum. The first 2 aircraft being send use blue-yellow camouflage of TNI-AU aerobatic team. The photos I got it from local forum.

The ferry route from South Korea-Taiwan-Philippines-Indonesia. Small wondered whether the choice of the route just come from flight safety reason or have additional marketing motive of KAI to Philippines.

 

[King Wally]

Yonhapnews Agency - Mobile

KAI begin to send Indonesian ordered T-50, which carried designation T-50i. Got some pictured on the first batch of T-50i being send from local forum. The first 2 aircraft being send use blue-yellow camouflage of TNI-AU aerobatic team. The photos I got it from local forum.

The ferry route from South Korea-Taiwan-Philippines-Indonesia. Small wondered whether the choice of the route just come from flight safety reason or have additional marketing motive of KAI to Philippines.

I was reading somewhere that Indonesia was opting for the Tactical trainer/light attack version of the T-50. TA-50? Pretty much the same as the advanced trainer but with weapons pylons and gun modules, enabling light attack capabilities for example COIN operations. I believe South Korea have a further advanced FA-50 variant that is up near the F-16 in ability (repeating someone else's opinion there, I've got little idea myself).

 

[Ananda]

Yes, from various sources in here and Korea, the TNI-AU T-50i basically similar with ROKAF TA-50. As the picture from korean forum shown weapons pylons and wingtip rails. It is basically LIFT versions from standard T-50 with secondary light attack capabilities.

Meanwhile from KAI sources, as far as I can conclude the FA-50 is light fighters with secondary LIFT duty. In short the difference mostly on electronics and sensors between those two versions. What their role in Indonesian AF, is basically LIFT as replacement for Hawk Mk 53 (which also have secondary light attack capabilities). COIN will not be their task, since TNI-AU already got Super Tucano for that.

 

[Ananda]

[Gallery] The Thunder's, TNI-AU Real Air Superiority Fighter

First official sighthing of TNI-AU R-77 AAM on Angkasa Yudha aerial exercise on Natuna's Air space by end of last month. This the first official confirmation of BVRAM in TNI-AU arsenal.

Unconfirmed speculations already circulated of AIM-120 negotiation for TNI-AU F-16. This speculation arrise with the avionics upgrade for existing 10 Block 15 and 24 ex USAF Block 25, that enable those F-16 for BVRAM operations. If that happen then TNI-AU will operate both R-77 and it's US equivalent AIM-120.

Pictures from ARC websites courtesy of Sioux.