Indonesian Aero News

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't be surprised if it's just underfunding of maintenance & support, as in Germany.
This is absolutely possible.
We only can give a better judgement if we have the data of other countries. Almost all items in this image has a score lower than 50%.

A400M 35%.....Cougar 31%....
I wonder how the A400M perform with other air forces, and the EC725...maybe it has better scores if in use with TNI-AU, or even worse.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
the good French salesman doesn’t want anyone to have a close look at French Airforce Rafale availability…
Definitely not going to even want to give a hint on that toward his online's followers. What massage he can defend from that ?

"Gee guys, turn out Rafale not only expensive to procured, even to maintain them Frech themselves can't provide enough budget to make it 70% operational". His Bread and Butter will be taking out from him, if he put that kind of massage. If someone shove him this kind of information in his Twitter, I'll bet he just ignores and try to buried it on other message so his followers will forget.

Any defense procurement program in Indonesia has to follow the Political mode and money trails that support them. Political mode seems favouring Frenchie with Parly and Prabowo sign defense co-op in last June that being enhance by Macron and Jokowi's meeting in G20. Fund that being prepared for Su-35 seems already been realigned toward other fighters program.

Thus if the plan meeting between Parly and Prabowo in this month really commencing (depends on COVID situation), then most likely the sign shown that fund for Su-35 will goes to first batch of Rafale.

If the plan works like that, then there will be question how to finance other Fighters project. That's why I said previously, if they (Indonesian MinDef) really committed to Rafale, better to support that Fighter with enough fund to operate them. Better to get industrial off set to manufacture fast moving equipment and MRO with upgrade capabilities.

Indonesian fanboys that supporting IFX program with Korean better pray hard on the continuation. Cause with Rafale in TNI-AU inventory, I just don't see enough budget left to support that IFX program with Korean.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
FB_IMG_1642220243250.jpg

From Infoglobal FB (Indonesian Avionics company). This's already couple days old, but only got time to uploaded in here. This's from this company booth during local Defense Equipment exhibition in MinDef three days ago.

Some information have been put on this thread on this company. Basically this's the leading avionics company in Indonesia. Their avionics products has been used in Hawk 200/100 of TNI-AU and according to their info also RMAF Hawk. They also got contract for Avionics on other TNI-AU aircraft modifications program like with C-130H and recently involved with DI to upgrade basic N219 toward MPA function.

In their booth they shown some models/mock-up of UCAV and Fighters they're proposed to be developing toward end of this decade. The UCAV model in the left and Fighter in the right shown similarities with what KAI developing. However in middle is bit different.

What I'm going to bring up in here, is the problem of 'consistencies' on defense tech and equipment development program. Years ago in this thread, I already shown that SBY administration decided to work with ROK/KAI on KFX toward giving DI learning curve and exposures on Fighter design and manufacturing management process. They also practically choose ROK as major Partner on defense industry development.

Thus there's no illusion on that. Working with ROK is part of learning curve on Fighter development, and not developing Indonesia own fighter. 20% participation means the Fighters is Korean project and Indonesia is junior partner (that basically only going to licensing). Thus it's not Indigenous Fighter program, and anyone that thinking otherwise is just kidding themselves.

However even with that Junior status, there's still question whether Indonesia will in the end going to keep that 20% commitment. Despite all recent talk, for me is always 'folow the money trail'. If Indonesia MinDef committed themselves toward expensive Fighters like Rafale or F-15EX, then just in previous posts, where's the money coming from, for Fighters development ?

For me, what this company shown in their booth, shown the development path for Fighters that's being talk as Political idea, still not clear on how to implement that. The ambiguity on the path still there, including what actually really want to gain by participating as 20% junior partner in KFX.

This administration now seems try to bring French as major Partner in defense industry development replacing ROK. I got sense Politically the choice of French as partner will be more interesting within this administration rather then ROK. Not a problem on that, but will that change if new administration come after 2024?

That's what I'm putting the problem in Indonesia. The changes of plan that making any long term plan going to be moot in the end. Even if they manage to inject money for that 20% share in KFX program, there's no guarantee they or the next administration will commit themselves on manufacturing IFX locally. There's no indication that they will inject more money toward DI after N219 for N250 (CN-235 civilian rendering), let alone this IFX.

So if this company somehow manage to convince present administration on developing 'their' fighters model design, is this means the experience with KAI on KFX will stop after prototype development stage ? Indonesia then used other partner (perhaps French) toward development of Indonesia own design?

Yugoslavia before broke up already talking with French/Dasault to help them with Novi Avion (which some model rendering shown design of one engine Rafale). Are that kind of path being choose ?

Whatever the path being choose the most important is continue commitment on the program. Whatever the path being choose (could be licensing Rafale or KF-21) or goes on to Indonesia own design, all need money and Political support for long term.

That's what always the problem in Indonesia especially after Soeharto's time. Long term Political path is something that very hard to continue being support.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group

Video from Indonesian local company IPCD MALE UAV already got certification from Indonesian MinDef. The prototype first flight in 2019 (if not mistaken the video already being put in this thread before).

Let's see if this certification turn into procurement from MinDef. The video also not shown how the flight control infrastructure for this claim 'MALE' variant. Long range Flight control development is also one of the weaknesses of previous local UAV development.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

Video from Indonesian local company IPCD MALE UAV already got certification from Indonesian MinDef. The prototype first flight in 2019 (if not mistaken the video already being put in this thread before).

Let's see if this certification turn into procurement from MinDef. The video also not shown how the flight control infrastructure for this claim 'MALE' variant. Long range Flight control development is also one of the weaknesses of previous local UAV development.
Ive never heard of and never seen this project before....i just don't understand that a small unknown company can create an autonomous UAV and let it fly in 2019, with almost no media exposure, but Elang Hitam hasn't fly at all until today.

This is also an own unique design, not some Predator-imitation.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
The drone it self seems based on French LH Aviation design. Seems it's a similar licensing deal that an Indian company also already done for their LH-D MALE UAV design.


It doesn't attract too much attention, because it's not done by Indonesian SOE company (that are master on BS public image building).

Regardless, the most important thing asside design an Airframes for MALE UAV, also how the development of ground based flight control on this type. Something that I'm still looking on either on LH Aviation, or their Indian partner sites (for their Indian project) or on this IPCD sites. So far not much mention on that.
 
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Arji

Member
Ive never heard of and never seen this project before....i just don't understand that a small unknown company can create an autonomous UAV and let it fly in 2019, with almost no media exposure, but Elang Hitam hasn't fly at all until today.

This is also an own unique design, not some Predator-imitation.
AFAIK Dislitbang and MoD actually work with a bunch of private company on a variety of stuff. They don't get media coverage, but I don't think that's a bad thing.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
The drone it self seems based on French LH Aviation design. Seems it's a similar licensing deal that an Indian company also already done for their LH-D MALE UAV design.


It doesn't attract too much attention, because it's not done by Indonesian SOE company (that are master on BS public image building).

Regardless, the most important thing asside design an Airframes for MALE UAV, also how the development of ground based flight control on this type. Something that I'm still looking on either on LH Aviation, or their Indian partner sites (for their Indian project) or on this IPCD sites. So far not much mention on that.
Thank you for sharing.
So i was wrong, its not a unique own design, but 100% French design and built under licence.

I just wonder now if our armed forces plan to order this UAV or wait until the Elang Hitam is available.


Btw.....it seems that Kompas wrote an article yesterday claiming that Indonesia is the nr.15 most powerfull country in the world!!!!








Based on the extremely reliable, correct and accurate data of GLOBALFIREPOWER!
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
was wrong, its not a unique own design, but 100% French design and built under licence.
I suspect the prototype still assembly kits directly from LH Aviation. They will not going to commence full manufacturing infrastructure, if they're not yet getting the contract from MinDef. After all just like in India, it's licensing for IAF, thus in here also licensing for Indonesian domestic. No MinDef contract, no further Investment.

Anyway:


From Keris FB, seems they (TNI-AU) more open to shown their Israel originated drone. Before, it's taking some time before they event acknowledge their Aerostar UAV coming from Israel (remember for some time they even call it procurement from Philippines).

Based on the extremely reliable, correct and accurate data of GLOBALFIREPOWER!
Global Fire Power is reputable institution that shown accurate defense ranking capabilities. Please don't mock GFP :p
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

From 'Industry Made in Indonesia' FB page. This's claim to be the working prototype of Indonesian Indigenous CGI radar that's being work out by PT. LEN (SOE in electronics) lead consortium.

This's radar has been shown to media before when Prabowo's visit to PT. LEN sometime ago.

FB_IMG_1642570413936.jpg

The consortium that LEN leads on this CGI radar project are consisting of local companies. However before LEN being known to work with Thanks and Leonardo on radar tech.


The design shown similarities with Thales Master T, but it's also probable on showing some Leonardo RAT 31 profiling. Regardless whose the foreign partner they used the tech from, however if this prototype already working, then there will be enough Political pressure to sources CGI Radar domestically.

Just like India having 'made in India' initiative in defense, there's also pressure Politically for 'made in Indonesia' initiative on defense. Nothing to complain about, as long as it's consistently being followed by substantial Investment to support.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Yeah, the French Salesman tweeted that Parly will come to Jakarta in 22nd. Seems the momentum for Rafale is getting stronger. Perhaps they will sign the first batch by then.

I do have doubt that this administration can afford whole new build Rafale. Just like the rumours that I heard, if it's still 36, then perhaps 12 second hand ex French AF and 24 new build. Besides getting some of second hand ones also expediate arrival. There's Political pressure to have some of them operational in 2024.

Also the Croatian got 12 second hand Rafale package at USD 1.1 bio. So perhaps similar deal can be got from French. That's after all the amount of funding that can be switch from SU-35, thus already available.

Add:
Seems the French Salesman has just tweet that Parly visit is postponed. Seems COVID related again. However what laughable is that he said Chances for F-15EX negotiations has missed due to US Defense Secretary postponement visit to Jakarta. However Parly postpone is not missed Chances. Once salesman always salesman, always put down competitors chances.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
Well they already build 3rd C-130 sq, and the inventory only enough to fully equip 2 sq of C-130. The latest count from what I gather are 7 original C-130H, 5 C-130B, 3 L-100-30, and 8 ex RAAF C-130H. Those original C-130H going to get some modification with GMF. The surviving C-130B already got modification before (in Airod and ST) toward H standard.

Thus unless the administration can give budget for more new ones asside the 5 now in progress, the ex RAF J is the best chances to fullfill the 3rd Sq with J standard. I don't see this administration can afford more new J if they still goes with Rafale and F-15.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group


I put this in Indonesia Air Force thread, cause this two agreement, The FIR and Extradition are always the thorn on Indonesia and Singapore relationship. Takes decades to sort it out, but with this two resolve, the relationship between Singapore and Indonesia practically do not burden by any major outstanding homework anymore.

This open more possibility on the third agreement on defense. Basically it open more agreement for joint operation and training. Something that already been happening since 90's but become hostage due to prolong negotiations on the two matter above.

My hope is Indonesia also can learn more on efficient and effective Fleet management especially in AF. TNI-AU actually already have open discussion with RSAF and RAAF on the matter. Still Political possitioning on defense procurement like this below, shown Indonesia still have different thinking.


Rumours from finance people talking about how to reduce the packages from USD 6bio+ toward USD 4bio+. This with assumption that total USD 20+ bio limit that being plan for foreign defense procurement (for all TNI 3 branches) on this term can still be afforded.

That's why in my previous post I talk on potential combo new and second hand Rafale and C-130J as the number just doesn't add up if all are new build.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Well they already build 3rd C-130 sq, and the inventory only enough to fully equip 2 sq of C-130. The latest count from what I gather are 7 original C-130H, 5 C-130B, 3 L-100-30, and 8 ex RAAF C-130H. Those original C-130H going to get some modification with GMF. The surviving C-130B already got modification before (in Airod and ST) toward H standard.

Thus unless the administration can give budget for more new ones asside the 5 now in progress, the ex RAF J is the best chances to fullfill the 3rd Sq with J standard. I don't see this administration can afford more new J if they still goes with Rafale and F-15.
Wasn't it 9 ex-RAAF C-130Hs? (Four donated and only paid for the refurbishment + 5 bought)



I put this in Indonesia Air Force thread, cause this two agreement, The FIR and Extradition are always the thorn on Indonesia and Singapore relationship. Takes decades to sort it out, but with this two resolve, the relationship between Singapore and Indonesia practically do not burden by any major outstanding homework anymore.

This open more possibility on the third agreement on defense. Basically it open more agreement for joint operation and training. Something that already been happening since 90's but become hostage due to prolong negotiations on the two matter above.

My hope is Indonesia also can learn more on efficient and effective Fleet management especially in AF. TNI-AU actually already have open discussion with RSAF and RAAF on the matter. Still Political possitioning on defense procurement like this below, shown Indonesia still have different thinking.


Rumours from finance people talking about how to reduce the packages from USD 6bio+ toward USD 4bio+. This with assumption that total USD 20+ bio limit that being plan for foreign defense procurement (for all TNI 3 branches) on this term can still be afforded.

That's why in my previous post I talk on potential combo new and second hand Rafale and C-130J as the number just doesn't add up if all are new build.
Here a video to explain the old and new situation in short.
At last Indonesia can handle the flights in its own airspace in that part.


So this $4+ billion package, is this for the 36 Rafale and 5 C-130J-30 together?
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
I believe of 9 ex RAAF only 8 still in inventory. One of them crash in Papua on 2016.



Indonesia can handle the flights in its own airspace in that part.
One big problem is how to handle air traffic entering Singapore. The way I read the agreement is basically Joint FIR (on the area around Singapore Air Space toward Natuna). Those aircraft flying at below crusing altitude (below 37,000 feet) will still be handle by Singapore Air Traffic. Those are planes considered approaching Singapore. Above 37,000 feet will be handle by Jakarta.


That's part of technicality that taking the agreement so long to implement. In my opinion it is a good deal as Singapore FIR still taking responsibility for air traffic that going to enter Singapore. Considering the traffic around Singapore it is going to be too much if Jakarta FIR that handdle it. While Jakarta FIR controling air traffic that only transiting in the routes.


this $4+ billion package, is this for the 36 Rafale and 5 C-130J-30 together?
From what I gather from finance people, even under best scenarios (thus USD 20+bio foreign credit line for this term can be taken all), considering the wish list for TNI, only 60% of submision for Fighters can be afforded. Unless TNI (including all three branches) wiling to cut some program. For instance, TNI-AU has to cut program for CGI radar, drop their wish list for AEW and ISTAR specialised aircraft and cut transport and tankers to get full package of Rafale as initial wish.

That's on best scenario. The finance people now also has to work hard to find financing for Jokowi's other infrastructure project including new capital. That's another USD 36 bio (larger then defense procurement line) that need to be found the financing line come from. There's limit of total foreign financing line that can be absorb this term, unless finance people can risk balloning national debt ratio, something that already increase significantly due to COVID.

So even best scenario on defense procurement foreign credit line limit at this moment still facing big risk to be cut further, in order to give room for other projects financing line. That's why I said before, I do have doubt if they still want to finance those 36 Rafale on this term, there will be any financing budget left for other Fighters, including F-15EX let alone further budget for KFX participation.

Something has to give to be cut out, the question is what procurement program that will be sacrifice.
 
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