Indonesian Aero News

[Sandhi Yudha]

With 42 fighters you can get three squadrons (16+16+10 or 15+15+12 or 14+14+14) like you said, or two squadrons (21+21). I dont know if the Rafales are bought to only replace the two Hawk Mk.109/209 squadrons the coming 10 years or also the F-5 squadron.

But in my opinion something European like the Rafale or EF2000 is the best choice, if you don't want to be too dependent from the US, and you are not allowed to buy Russian. Besides that both Russia and the US are less willing to share ToT and offset programs, compared to European countries.

 

[STURM]

the issue on how more expensive Frenchie stuff to maintain relative to others (except Russian perhaps).

I don't know. A traditional reason that Russian fighters tend to be more expensive in the long term to operate compared to Western types is the lower MTBF/TBO period for engines, gearboxes, landing gears, etc.

With the French their stuff has always been more expensive to buy compared to other Western types and is a reason why Mirage 2000 failed to attract any orders within ASEAN. Another factors which adds to operating and supports costs is that 5 generation types such as Rafale are fitted with more electronics, computers, etc, compared to legacy types and need to maintained.

 

[Ananda]

In paper, the agreement are on Industrial relationship, just as Dasault put in their official sites. That's why I wrote it is better to commit the Industrial relationship to one type only. If not it will be to costly to maintain those Rafale.

With US, we can always piggy back on support procurement toward USAF own program. That's one of reason why it call excess defense article. However Frenchie will not have that kind of volumes. That's why Indonesia better to build their industrial own capabilities to support those Rafale.

I guess that's why the #42. You need your own volume to build industrial support infrastructure. That's what Dasault also sell with India and Egypt. Build their own industrial support infrastructure to support their own Rafale fleet.

 

[Arji]

Is Rafale compatible with American-made missiles and munitions?

 

[Ananda]

Rafale compatible with American-made missiles and munitions?

Not that I heard off. To make it compatibles with other missiles means you have to got source code to be addepted by Fighters computers. So far seems US still reluctance to do that.

Off course there are some munitions that are NATO standard that all NATO aircraft can shares. However it is not on advance guided items.

 

[STURM]

With US, we can always piggy back on support procurement toward USAF own program. That's one of reason why it call exxess defence article

We're you referring to FMS instead of EDA?

 

[Ananda]

Actually Both. EDA where most of support procurement used. However even FMS can also piggy back with US own program. I remember the 8 AH-64E that TNI-AD got was using FMS (if not mistaken), but those 8 coming from production batch of US Army program.

Using existing US batch program can reduce the procurement cost significantly.

 

[STURM]

Is Rafale compatible with American-made missiles and munitions?

Integration and certification is expensive and problematic. The French have to agree and will try their best to steer you away. Years ago the IN looked at integrating SM39s to its Type 209s. Too problematic. Try telling the French you want Scorpene but not SUBTICs.

 

[STURM]

I could be wrong but EDA refers to stuff no longer operated but offered to various countries. The advantage of FMS is a U.S. service talking delivery of the said product on behalf of the customer and ensuring contractual obligations are met. Also of course the training and support provided.

 

[Ananda]

My understanding is bit different. EDA can be the assets that not being used by US anymore but also assets that suplus batches from assest that being produce by US. So that's why fast moving assets for maintenance using that (that's from what I gather). Reconditioning assets can also used EDA.

FMS is basically produce for US order and sell toward export customers. They shares with what US own batch.

 

[STURM]

FMS is a programme in which a U.S. service performs certain services for a customer, like taking delivery and ensuring contractual are met. Under FMS the customer also gets training and product support. Some things can't 'be bought as a direct commercial sale but only via FMS. Yes under FMS some stuff already in production for the U.S. can be diverted [like the RMAF's Hornets] but not necessarily so.

 

[Ananda]

Well the attraction for most of procurement of US defense articles is because piggy back US own batch provide better pricing. Economics scale of production batches matter.

Something that most other producers can not compete with, asside USSR. Those MIG 19/21 and TU-16 that AURI for example being redirect from USSR own batches of production.

 

[STURM]

The main attraction for buying via FMS is the sales support and training provided, paid for by the customer of course. Other countries offer similar services but not to the extent which the U.S. can via FMS. If the TNI-AL gets Scorpenes, training will be provided by NAVCO, part of the training package provided.

 

[Ananda]

Well talking to some people in Bapenas, Better pricing due to piggy back on US batch is one thing they say that US offer.

The overall packages on training can be arranged even without FMS. However piggy bank on US own batches to get Economics of scale, thus better pricing is so far seems the main attraction.

 

[STURM]

And I didn't say otherwise. I was merely pointing out the advantageous of procuring stuff via FMS. You were talking about stuff for the U.S. being diverted to customers, which can also occur as part of a direct commercial sale. I was talking about the advantages of FMS. So essentially we were talking about two slightly different things.

The RMAF's 8 Hornets were diverted from stocks intended for the USN via FMS. Some of the M-16s Malaysia bought were also diverted but it was a direct commercial sale.

 

[swerve]

Is Rafale compatible with American-made missiles and munitions?

Some US weapons are integrated onto Rafale, but AFAIK not many. The French air force uses some Paveways & they're integrated, of course. I've seen GBU-12, GBU-16, GBU-22, GBU-24 & GBU-49 mentioned.

 

[Ananda]

was merely pointing out the advantageous of procuring stuff via FMS.

I understand that, you point out on advantage of sales support and training. However I'm point the attraction on FMS on pricing benefit seems is bigger ones, as the foreign buyers can piggy bank toward US own batches.

So we are not talking two different things. Getting sales support and training packages also can be got from direct sale. Yes FMS can benefit from US own training and support program, as they are doing their own program at same time. So again is part of piggy bank toward US own batches.

However pricing benefit seems is the main attraction. Taking to colleague from Bapenas (Indonesia Planning Office), pricing benefit is something that US suppliers promote on procurement US defense items through FMS.

 

[STURM]

sales support and training packages also can be got from direct sale.

Not to the same extent as via FMS. No.

understand that, you point out on advantage of sales support and training

Which is a large or main reason.customers go for a FMS sale.

Taking to colleague from Bapenas (Indonesia Planning Office), pricing benefit is something that US suppliers promote on procurement US defense items through FMS.

Buying via FMS costs more as the customer has to.pay for various services rendered. Not the case with a direct commercial sale for which the transaction will involve the customer and the OEM with little or no.involvement from a U.S. armed service . Pros and cons.

 

[koxinga]

Well the attraction for most of procurement of US defense articles is because piggy bank US own batch provide better pricing. Economics scale of production batches matter.

This has nothing to do with EDA/FMS/DCS and one key thing that you missed out, FMF.

FMF is the financing that is provided the purchase and is almost always used for FMS.
EDA on the other hand, depends on the recipient coming up with the money, either for transport or refurbishment and transport.
DCS is pure commercial transaction; State Department will facilitate but financing will be arranged by the customer and the prices are decided by the contractor

The French offer similar piggyback arrangements when it suits them. The Egyptians got their Aquitaine class frigate directly from the DCNS which was a unit meant for the French Navy.

I suspect the Rafale prices are getting affordable simply because there are volume these days.

 

[ADMk2]

Some US weapons are integrated onto Rafale, but AFAIK not many. The French air force uses some Paveways & they're integrated, of course. I've seen GBU-12, GBU-16, GBU-22, GBU-24 & GBU-49 mentioned.

Interesting FAF uses dual-mode Paveway…

Says something about the cost / capability / availability of AASM…