Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
We can see on this post on Twitter from DCNS, that the defence minister is receiving a model what looks like an FTI..... well, let's wait and see if we get also extreme diversification in our navy.
Indonesia: 'green water navy'
- Thread starter Supe
- Start date
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Naval Group already offering FTI/FDI for few years to Indonesia. Already offering PAL to become partner yard in building it domestically. However it is still cost more then Arrowhead 140 and Turkiye Istiff. It is even cost more then PPA on full config. Just like China offer for Type 52D destroyer or Type 54 Frigate, it is gaining 'serious' assessment but still put on hold.
Defence Minister went to French meet Indonesian AF crew that already in Dasault to prepare first batch of Rafale transition. While in NG he visit PAL people (mostly welders) that doing on the job training with NG Submarine facilities.
Just like F-15EX/ID, FDI still in negotiation but all depends on how far NG can reduce the price to meet competitors range.
Defence Minister went to French meet Indonesian AF crew that already in Dasault to prepare first batch of Rafale transition. While in NG he visit PAL people (mostly welders) that doing on the job training with NG Submarine facilities.
Just like F-15EX/ID, FDI still in negotiation but all depends on how far NG can reduce the price to meet competitors range.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Another photos circulating online (seems originate from Keris FB followers) on the progress of FMP#1. Looking on the progress seems the target to launch it before November can be achievable. The second photo shown UAE LPD already being assembly, and PAL need FMP to flood out from dock soon to give room for both UAE LPD and Pinoy LPD#3.
Finally the ex Nahkoda Ragam corvette KRI Usman Harun entering Irian dock. The other grave dock in PAL that usually use for MRO. This MRO supposedly asside upgrading sensors and weapon systems, also change the VLS from Sea Wolf to VL MICA.
So the R-41 refurbishment program is not finish yet, however PAL CEO already claim it is finish.
Well that's shown how State Enterprises still talk big in media only.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
This is not big talk, but true lies.
Even the first of the three Nakhoda Ragam vessels isn't finished yet....
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Still 5 from original 6 Van Speijk (Netherlands Leander derivatives) operating. Last time I heard only 4 that in actual still operating, rumours 1 being set for spare parts. The 6th one already destroyed as SINKEX target.
Those 6 actually if not because indecision and changing preference at 2014-2019 previous administration term, should be replace by 6 SIGMA 10514 Light Frigates. Instead now only 2 being build, and that's why we see fluries of fast need on procuring 2 Italian PPA and 2 Turkish Istif frigates. More expensive move as both Italia and Turkiye 'naturally' demand premium prices to compensate giving up their own Navy sloots to be exported to Indonesia.
The 2 FMP (Arrowhead 140 derivatives) from my understanding will not be Van Speik/Ahmad Yani class replacement. Those two will be TNI-AL first dedicated AAW Frigates.
All this because some "thinkers/planners" in 2014-2019 administration term decided that SIGMA 10514 are not good enough, cut the order and manufacturing schedulles, and then undecided which choices going to replace. Until present administration has to take more expensive move replacing all those Van Speijks that already operating beyond their latest MLU extended age.
I believe Ecuador still has 2x ex-Chilean Leander derivates in commission, of course this doesn't mean that they are actually operational though.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Few hours ago, there's live talks in CNN Indonesia on future profiles of TNI-AL
As expected this interview get very negative reactions from online enthusiats. Especially the Chinese procurement for Type 053H. For me it is means the interim Frigates and Submarines program being decided to go to China.
It is in my opinion expected as MinDef still open the contex of Interim Submarine, Frigates and Fighters. Interim always means ready to use assets and it is going to means second hand assets.
Finance guys already talk China willing to fill the need for Interim assets as gap filling for Indonesia. Their offer is attractive from the term of financing and prices. China already being talk willing to give Frigates as sweeteners for Submarine packages.
Despite the talk of Type 053H, most of Type 053H already retired. The one still in PLAN inventory and rumours going to be retired soon after enough Type 54A or 54B available replacing them is Type 053H3.
So base on availability in Inventory and talk of 7 Frigates, then it is posibility this is the type they offering. In sense it is still at same era as Abukuma Destroyer Escort that Japan talk to give toward ASEAN members.
There are also rumours that talk the Chinese Frigates basically being procured without Guns, Missiles and Weapon systems, as those will be refurbished using Aselsan systems, Roketsan Missiles and Leonardo guns. Similar with what domestic build corvettes going to take.
This means the TNI-AL assets will be combine new assets originate mostly from French, Turkey and Italia, and interim/second hand assets from China (value for money consideration).
Add:
If this goes through, very potential that the interim frigates that actually will conduct function as Van Speijk replacement. Oto Melara 76mm on those Van Speijks even tough getting old, I believe still better to maintain then Chinese 100mm.
As expected this interview get very negative reactions from online enthusiats. Especially the Chinese procurement for Type 053H. For me it is means the interim Frigates and Submarines program being decided to go to China.
It is in my opinion expected as MinDef still open the contex of Interim Submarine, Frigates and Fighters. Interim always means ready to use assets and it is going to means second hand assets.
Finance guys already talk China willing to fill the need for Interim assets as gap filling for Indonesia. Their offer is attractive from the term of financing and prices. China already being talk willing to give Frigates as sweeteners for Submarine packages.
Despite the talk of Type 053H, most of Type 053H already retired. The one still in PLAN inventory and rumours going to be retired soon after enough Type 54A or 54B available replacing them is Type 053H3.
So base on availability in Inventory and talk of 7 Frigates, then it is posibility this is the type they offering. In sense it is still at same era as Abukuma Destroyer Escort that Japan talk to give toward ASEAN members.
There are also rumours that talk the Chinese Frigates basically being procured without Guns, Missiles and Weapon systems, as those will be refurbished using Aselsan systems, Roketsan Missiles and Leonardo guns. Similar with what domestic build corvettes going to take.
This means the TNI-AL assets will be combine new assets originate mostly from French, Turkey and Italia, and interim/second hand assets from China (value for money consideration).
Add:
If this goes through, very potential that the interim frigates that actually will conduct function as Van Speijk replacement. Oto Melara 76mm on those Van Speijks even tough getting old, I believe still better to maintain then Chinese 100mm.
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If the SIGMA 10514 is considered "not good enough", where does that leave the Type 053H3 (I presume it is the H3 version since they are the last of this class) ? Their technology is not a big jump from the Van Spejik, and worse, the systems are completely incompatible.
Why go through all the trouble for technology that is no better, even if it is "interim" whatever that means now.
Hulls are the least expensive part of the ship. If the entire suite of combat systems, sensors, and missiles are going to be brand new, sticking it into 20+ year old hulls is not value for money. Just buy them new from Turkiye with the ship or build the ships locally.
Got the money to buy PPA/LPH and then choose to buy junk and put new hardware on junk.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
I can't comment more on this Type 053H3 until more detail come out on this like:
- What is the cost to acquire those Frigates? Are those Frigates just sweteners for acquiring Type 039 Submarines?
- If it is sweeteners then how long it will be hold as interim Frigates.
If this is really interim Frigates, then very probable they are only being hold for several years or even a decade until new Frigates comes around. Babcock already offer extended license for FMP batch 2 , Fincantieri also known already having local shipyard partner to build PPA batch 2. Even talk on Istiff also open option for 2 more (not clear being build in Indonesia or Turkiye).
So there options for more PPA, FMP or Istiff. Rumours changes on SEWACO base on situation that Chinese equipment not compatible with TNI-AL current NATO standard system (yes many enthusiats in Indonesia forget that Turkiye system is still NATO standard).
Again all this just rumours at this moment. There still possibilities it will be only have limited adjustment, just like when Indonesia procured 39 (thus nearly all) DDR Navy in the 90's. The surviving Parchim under R-41 program being told to get local made CMS (base on LEN-Thales colab), to make them connected to others CMS under LINK-ID network. So it could be similar thing that being adjusted to those Type 053H3, 'if' it is still pursue.
Just like in 90's those ex DDR Corvettes, MCMV, and LST also being talk only going to be interim requirements for a decade untill new ships come around. Then Asian Financial crisis come, and those ex DDR still being use until now.
So at this moment I can only say, this could only be an interim move to replace older vessels with second hand vessels for relatively "cheap" prices, or turn out another ex DDR naval ships saga
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But that's is the whole point. It is history repeating itself.
Any long term planning for "future" frigates is always subject to changing political winds. So the short term solution is go "interim". But these interim ends up staying longer than "interim" and because they are there, the decision makers will think since you can survive with "interim", then why the urgency to replace?
Second, sweetner is because you want to lure the customer to buy something more expensive and better (e.g a Type 052 or a J-10CE). Example is the used M2K Mirages were tied to Rafale purchase and some basic alignment in logistic.
Type 039 is objectively, worse than the Scorpene, and probably no better than the Type 209 and same story as the frigates. Other than cheap acquisition cost (and but with potentially higher operational expense), RI gains nothing militarily. If it is some politically signalling to the Chinese, it is pretty naive to think buying some old ships/planes will be counted as anything special by the Chinese. Instead, the signalling I am seeing is people thinking there is corruption at play or just plain incompetence at political level.
Any long term planning for "future" frigates is always subject to changing political winds. So the short term solution is go "interim". But these interim ends up staying longer than "interim" and because they are there, the decision makers will think since you can survive with "interim", then why the urgency to replace?
Second, sweetner is because you want to lure the customer to buy something more expensive and better (e.g a Type 052 or a J-10CE). Example is the used M2K Mirages were tied to Rafale purchase and some basic alignment in logistic.
Type 039 is objectively, worse than the Scorpene, and probably no better than the Type 209 and same story as the frigates. Other than cheap acquisition cost (and but with potentially higher operational expense), RI gains nothing militarily. If it is some politically signalling to the Chinese, it is pretty naive to think buying some old ships/planes will be counted as anything special by the Chinese. Instead, the signalling I am seeing is people thinking there is corruption at play or just plain incompetence at political level.