Indonesia: 'green water navy'

Meriv90

Member
Can i get a local confirmation? thanks :)


Trieste, June 10, 2021 – Fincantieri, one of the most important shipbuilding groups in the world, and the Ministry of Defense of Indonesia, have signed a contract for the supply of 6 FREMM class frigates, the modernization and sale of 2 Maestrale class frigates, and the related logistical support
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
I can not open the Fincantieri website, but ive found this one.


To be honest, ive never expected that Fincantieri will win against Koninklijke Schelde/Damen, Naval Group and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries. It was the latest candidate in this contest for 6-8 frigates, but also TNI-AL does not have any Finmeccanica/Selex equipment on any of their ships.

The FREMM-class are a formidable class of frigates, but the Maestrale are old frigates, some of them already retired and the left overs are commissioned in the Marina Militare in 1983-1985, at least 36 years old. I hope the modernisation/refurbishment will be properly done, with the old Aspide, Teseo Mk 2 and other obsolete stuff removed and replaced by decent equipment.

Besides that, it is a CODOG-class, equipped with General Electric LM2500 gasturbines.
Decommission, overhaul + heavy modernisation, trials and training will take at least two years. Maybe the process can be shortened and becoming cheaper by not modernizing the ships, but than TNI-AL will get a pair of complete obsolete almost 40 years old FFBNW frigates.
 
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Meriv90

Member
Same i lurk from time to time and I read your posts on this thread so it came like a big surprise also for me.

On our forum a person working back then in Jakarta mentioned that FREMM Carabinieri in its travel for the Australian program stopped at Jakarta and allowed visits.

Probably it could have impressed the right persons?
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Same i lurk from time to time and I read your posts on this thread so it came like a big surprise also for me.

On our forum a person working back then in Jakarta mentioned that FREMM Carabinieri in its travel for the Australian program stopped at Jakarta and allowed visits.

Probably it could have impressed the right persons?
Not only impressing the right persons, but also having the right price and giving the best ofset projects and ToT-programs.....hopefully.

Well, lets see how this largest defence procurement in decades will develop.
 
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Arji

Member
I can not open the Fincantieri website, but ive found this one.


To be honest, ive never expected that Fincantieri will win against Koninklijke Schelde/Damen, Naval Group and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries. It was the latest candidate in this contest for 6-8 frigates, but also TNI-AL does not have any Finmeccanica/Selex equipment on any of their ships.

The FREMM-class are a formidable class of frigates, but the Maestrale are old frigates, some of them already retired and the left overs are commissioned in the Marina Militare in 1983-1985, at least 36 years old. I hope the modernisation/refurbishment will be properly done, with the old Aspide, Teseo Mk 2 and other obsolete stuff removed and replaced by decent equipment.

Besides that, it is a CODOG-class, equipped with General Electric LM2500 gasturbines.
Decommission, overhaul + heavy modernisation, trials and training will take at least two years. Maybe the process can be shortened and becoming cheaper by not modernizing the ships, but than TNI-AL will get a pair of complete obsolete almost 40 years old FFBNW frigates.
What the heck? Is this not going to get blasted to hell politically if it's known that the Frigate is old?
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
There's no local confirmation yet. Some rumours on defense enthusiasts sites and local media on potential contract signing. However many expect with Dasault.

Fincantieri actually is leading candidate on next Frigates program. However it's leading with strong competition from MHI 30FFM. Many in Indonesia predicted MHI win, as usually Japan can provide better financing and Industrial packages with Indonesia.

My self also predicted MHI on that matter. Fincantieri it self has previous engagement with Indonesian PAL shipyard during Soeharto era and early 2000 for potential National Corvettes program.

this not going to get blasted to hell politically if it's known that the Frigate is old?
Not really in my opinion, if they packages this as temporary stop gap Frigates. If they provide the focus on new Frigates program, then it's part of temporary Frigate arrangements. They can sell it.

The Japanese also rumoured providing some temporary Frigate arrangements, until new building complete.

If this's confirm by Indonesian MinDef and Contract being effective with payment (this's Indonesia after all, nothing certain until contract being paid and work commence), then it's big win for Fincantieri against MHI. After all MHI is being considered sure win, with Japan historical business ties in Indonesia.
 

Arji

Member
If this's confirm by Indonesian MinDef and Contract being effective with payment (this's Indonesia after all, nothing certain until contract being paid and work commence), then it's big win for Fincantieri against MHI. After all MHI is being considered sure win, with Japan historical business ties in Indonesia.
Well that sucks if it's true. I personally prefer the Japanese offer.
 

Meriv90

Member
I wouldn't worry about the Maestrale.

Rumors say it is 4bln deal.

Considering it is 6 FREMM thats 650. You are paying same price as Italy 10 years ago not inflation adjusted...
Thats already relevant, the Maestrale as a gap filler is literally for free.

Plus Fincantieri follows ENI. It happened the same with Egypt in 2015 we discovered Zohr the biggest gas field in the Mediterranean, we just sold them 2 Frigates and we are discussing a 10bln arms deal.

 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group

Well Xavier sites also put this. Usually Naval News will not put anything, unless they also already quite sure the contract is legitimate.

personally prefer the Japanese offer.
FREMM is good design, but the Japanese so far shown their willingness to provide better financing and Industrial deals. If Fincantieri and Italian able to snatch the deal from them, I also wonder what's their packages.

@Meriv90 I believe @Arji talking about Maestrale not FREMM. He's talking more on Indonesian domestic political situation, where the Politicians talk to the public on their position on not supporting used defense assets item.

He's commenting on how this's going to be accepted in Indonesia as the package includes two used Frigates. Thus why I put in my previous post why I believe they will possition Maestrale as stop gap Frigates until all FREMM ready.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

Well Xavier sites also put this. Usually Naval News will not put anything, unless they also already quite sure the contract is legitimate.



FREMM is good design, but the Japanese so far shown their willingness to provide better financing and Industrial deals. If Fincantieri and Italian able to snatch the deal from them, I also wonder what's their packages.

@Meriv90 I believe @Arji talking about Maestrale not FREMM. He's talking more on Indonesian domestic political situation, where the Politicians talk to the public on their position on not supporting used defense assets item.

He's commenting on how this's going to be accepted in Indonesia as the package includes two used Frigates. Thus why I put in my previous post why I believe they will possition Maestrale as stop gap Frigates until all FREMM ready.
Wauw, two hours ago Navalnews hasnt posted this yet.
But indeed, after this confirmation, its quite sure that this is not just a hoax/fanboystory.
 

koxinga

Active Member
The Maestrales will be expensive and manpower intensive to operate without any deep modernization. Either to do a deep modernization (e.g repowering, replacing of obsolete sensors, CMS) or reduce the complexity (e.g do the repowering, wiring but remove the combat system and keep the sensors to the minimal)

I get the impression that these were thrown in to sweeten the deal.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Maestrales will be expensive and manpower intensive to operate without any deep modernization.
If this deal confirm, slight touch-up of Maestrale will still be much better then 50+ year old Van Speijks. Indonesian Navy already in deep trouble to just making those operational. They supposedly being replaced by Damen Sigma PKR, but with much delayed (and now seems cancelation) of the program after the first two, means there're four left desperately need replacement.

Even those 6 FREMM being constructed simultaneously by two ship yard (say one in Indonesia and one in Italy) it will take close to end of this decade to make all six operational. This with assumption the implementation of the contract will be Swift, and first steel cut will be next year.

With four Van Speijks need urgent replacement, getting two stop gap used Maestrale will able the Indonesian Navy to keep operational fleet readiness until all Six new Frigates operational.

Rumors say it is 4bln deal.
If that's true, then the pricing bit higher then what Japanese MHI offered rumoured around USD 500 Mio each for 30FFM. However the detail of packages that's still not clear. Japanese packages being rumours as front runner before due to preferable financing and Industrial offering.

Perhaps (this's just my suspicion) Japanese offer are using Japanese sensors and system. While Italian offer using Euro sensors and system (like Thales or Terma) which TNI-AL already more familiar with.

Anyway will see how Indonesian confirmation will be. This contracts, I suspect still preliminary contract. Last year we heard preliminary contract and design study for two Iver based Frigates (which actually last term project). However we don't heard much after this, except some tidbits that PAL working with German and Turkish consultants for finishing the design.

So anything still can happen.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
The Maestrales will be expensive and manpower intensive to operate without any deep modernization. Either to do a deep modernization (e.g repowering, replacing of obsolete sensors, CMS) or reduce the complexity (e.g do the repowering, wiring but remove the combat system and keep the sensors to the minimal)

I get the impression that these were thrown in to sweeten the deal.
Agree.
I was also thinking about FREMM's propulsion system : CODLAG.
Will Indonesia's version get a full diesel-propulsion?
Nothing is clear yet about the configuration, sensor and weaponsystems. Will Indonesia get a downgraded version, or even a FFBNW-configuration?
Will the last vessels of this order be built in Surabaya by PAL? If not than it will be an unacceptable offer, specially if the other contestants offer more workshare and ToT. Even the two SIGMA 10514 frigates are assembled and partly built at PAL.

Anyway looking to the amount of 6, the FREMM-frigates will be the true replacement of the Van Speijk/Ahmad Yani Class.
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Well that sucks if it's true. I personally prefer the Japanese offer.
From a shipbuilding perspective, I actually prefer that Indonesia accepts the 6 new built ship offer from the Italians — even the US Navy have used the FREMM design as a base for the Constellation class (so the technical transfer package just needs modification to the local shipyard). The Italians also not only won the naval shipbuilding contract to supply vessels to Qatar (which makes their yard efficient), plus the FREMM design has orders from Egypt (built by Fincantieri) and Morocco (built by the Naval Group).

I just expected MHI to win due to financing package; but turns out the TNI AL felt that they could get value from the transfer of the 2 Maestrales. Looking at the package in totality, the TNI AL gets 8 ships. It’s not a bad deal.
 
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kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
But indeed, after this confirmation, its quite sure that this is not just a hoax/fanboystory.
I really doubt Fincantieri would put out a "hoax" press release. Especially when they know it'll get picked up by press worldwide.

CNBC Indonesia supposedly has tried to get confirmation from TNI-AL, with no answer.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
All the confirmation now has to come from Official MinDef. They're really angry from latest leak on draft budget. So all the services now in tight lips mode.
 
With the Navy primarily operating Thales based subsystems, I assume an Indonesian FREMM would be a Bergamini class with the Kronos radar replaced by a Thales sourced equivalent?

Also if the claims of the TNI-AL planning on operating Aster are true, having them installed on the FREMM would really be a big leap in capability. Only thing left to do IMO is more joint training and closer cooperation with the RSN and the RAN.
 
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