Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Sandhi Yudha]

JMSDF eventough mostly used Japan own system, but also uses many American and some Euro originated system (especially in the beginning where they also used RR turbine. The question will be on 30FFM design. To make it export success, MHI has to make the design easy adaptable for any system packages. This is the real tests for MHI export drive.

Anyway, @Sandhi Yudha you seems in this thread ask info on TNI-AL MCMV projects with German shipyard. Seems according to Indonesian Embassy in Germany sites, they're begin the process.

DUA KAPAL MCMV PESANAN INDONESIA MULAI DIKERJAKAN 2021

Indonesia membeli dua unit kapal MCMV (Mine Counter-Measure Vessel) Type MHV-60 dari salah satu perusahaan Jerman Abeking & Rasmussen.

indonesianembassy.de

This's from Ministry of Foreign affairs, to confirm it.

Kedutaan Besar Republik Indonesia di Berlin, Republik Federal Jerman

Kedutaan Besar Republik Indonesia di Berlin, Republik Federal Jerman

kemlu.go.id

Thank you very much for sharing. I was afraid that also this project was cancelled, on hold or just silently faded away....

"Setidaknya ada sekitar satu ton bahan pelat yang diperiksa dan dipotong pada kegiatan ini."

"Kegiatan Milestone of Starting of Steel Cutting inidilaksanakan sebagai persiapan dan pendahuluan dari acara Seremonial Pemotongan Pertama Baja Kapal, First Steel Cutting Ceremony yang menurut rencana akan digelar pada Januari 2021 mendatang."

Thats confusing, first they say that the metalsheet is inspected and cut, and later that the ceremony yesterday is just a preparation for the first steel cutting januari next year...

 

[Ananda]

Duet Luhut-Erick 'Blusukan' ke Jepang Demi Dana Abadi Jokowi

Luhut dan Erick direncanakan akan bertemu sejumlah pejabat Kementerian Ekonomi (METI) dan beberapa lembaga keuangan di Jepang

www.cnbcindonesia.com

Japan Keiretsu at work. Off course it's not saying the MHI drive for defense Contracts is part of the discussion with Mitsubishi Chairman. It could be part of Mitsubishi Smelter project, or other potential Mitsubishi projects. Including the ones with Indonesian Shipyards. If it's on Banking and Investment only, then why Luhut and Erick that come ?

The way I see it, they're looking for Investment funds, but the way Japanese Keiretsu works also means they need to see what other non Financial project they can get as part of combo deal.

It shows how Japanese lobby work with Indonesia, and also why other countries especially Western ones always worry if suddenly they're competing with Japanese for Indonesian project.

 

[Ananda]

Indonesia in talks with Naval Group for variant of Riachuelo-class submarine

Officials from Indonesia’s defence ministry are in discussions with a consortium led by French shipbuilder Naval Group for a possible order of the Riachuelo (Modified...

www.janes.com

Other news from Jane's put Naval Group effort to get/replace DSME as Indonesian Submarine projects partner. Similar class of Submarine that being build by Brazil. Seems they're offering similar deal with what being done in Brazil.

Personally, I do think this one have better chance then that 48 Rafale that French media shown more optimism. This considering several talks on postponing DSME 1400 Batch 2. Anyway this French optimism on replacing DSME, must be aware on TKMS together with it's Turkish partner on their efforts with 214.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Indonesia in talks with Naval Group for variant of Riachuelo-class submarine

Officials from Indonesia’s defence ministry are in discussions with a consortium led by French shipbuilder Naval Group for a possible order of the Riachuelo (Modified...

www.janes.com

Other news from Jane's put Naval Group effort to get/replace DSME as Indonesian Submarine projects partner. Similar class of Submarine that being build by Brazil. Seems they're offering similar deal with what being done in Brazil.

Personally, I do think this one have better chance then that 48 Rafale that French media shown more optimism. This considering several talks on postponing DSME 1400 Batch 2. Anyway this French optimism on replacing DSME, must be aware on TKMS together with it's Turkish partner on their efforts with 214.

"Indonesia in talks".....

Well ...as one of the most pessimistic members of Defencetalk, i can tell you that there is a big chance that it will stay with this, just talking.

If it will ever become reality that the Indonesian government will order a small amount of Scorpènes, it will be the most simple, smallest, cheapest and low-techest version available, the CA-2000.
It will be a miracle if the 61,7 m long 1565 ton conventional diesel-electric version (CM-2000) will be ordered, let alone the 70 m long 1870 ton AM-2000 AIP version. And now they are talking about the 75 m 2000 ton S-BR giant.

It is just impossible that the Indonesian government will order a modified S-BR package, DCNS built or assembled in Surabaya.
It will not happen, guarenteed! And if my prediction is wrong i am willing to go to the nearest minimarket and buy and eat 3 Magnum ice creams as punishment!

 

[Ananda]

will not happen, guarenteed! And if my prediction is wrong i am willing to go to the nearest minimarket and buy and eat 3 Magnum ice creams as punishment

Come on @Sandhi Yudha how come it's punishment ? Even guys from local forums willing to run naked around Monas monument if this administration going to procure more Submarines

For me, new Submarine projects is more likely then new Frigates, Corvettes or OPV. Simply due (as my other post put), the administration already invest capital to Submarine Manufacturing Facilities. USD 200 Mio need to be shown being used properly. It will be high political cost, if they are left unused or underutilized. We all know how image building is very important for this administration.

It's different with that facility that DI build for Jet Fighter. One thing the administration hasn't invest much relative to PAL Submarine facility. Also DI can reused that for other Airplanes manufacturing. While the Submarine facility being build specialize for submarine only.

 

[Ahmad]

PT Dock Kodja Bahari, another state owned shipbuilding company beside PT PAL, has delivered 2 LST vessels for Indonesian Navy.

KRI Teluk Kendari 518 and KRI Teluk Kupang 519

Defense spending during Jokowi period are mostly used for supporting role instead of catchy order like fighters and others since that is that can be provided by our local defense industries at the moment.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1336212587977998343

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Come on @Sandhi Yudha how come it's punishment ? Even guys from local forums willing to run naked around Monas monument if this administration going to procure more Submarines

1. Thats a lewd and creepy suggestion.
2. Such act will be traumatic for all the people at Monas.
3. The punishment ive in mind is also much more economical attractive --> now at Indomaret buy two Magnums get one free!! (Only until 15 december)

For me, new Submarine projects is more likely then new Frigates, Corvettes or OPV. Simply due (as my other post put), the administration already invest capital to Submarine Manufacturing Facilities. USD 200 Mio need to be shown being used properly. It will be high political cost, if they are left unused or underutilized. We all know how image building is very important for this administration.

They can also order nothing and blame Covid-19 for everything. "In order to develop and protect our economy, all defence procurement will be canceled. Of course we are doing this for people....because we are 'so pro-rakyat'! "
And then they get away with it..

PT Dock Kodja Bahari, another state owned shipbuilding company beside PT PAL, has delivered 2 LST vessels for Indonesian Navy.

KRI Teluk Kendari 518 and KRI Teluk Kupang 519

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Ahmad]

There is still chance for PT Palindo Marine to win OPV tender for Indonesian Navy for 2 vessels if the tender is only for FFBW configuration. The integration of weapon and sensor then can be done by PT PAL Indonesia.

PT PAL Indonesia on the other hand will likely get order for 2 frigates (cooperation with Odense or others), 3 submarines (cooperation with DSME), and another batch of KCR 60 (60 meter missile boat) next year or in 2022. PT PAL military division production facility could also reach full capacity if tender for 2 LPD for Philippine Navy can be taken as well next year as the project that was previously halted due to pandemic effect has been resumed according to Pinoy fanboys. We know Pinoy has started buying weapon again this year.

PT Palindo Marine design of OPV 110 meter for Indonesian Coast Guard (Bakamla) IMO has incorporated some possible weapon integration like VLS at front hull and possible 2-4 SSM launchers in the middle of the hull as we can see on their design below.

Edited

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

There is still chance for PT Palindo Marine to win OPV tender for Indonesian Navy for 2 vessels if the tender is only for FFBW configuration. The integration of weapon and sensor then can be done by PT PAL Indonesia.

PT PAL Indonesia on the other hand will likely get order for 2 frigates (cooperation with Odin or others), 3 submarines (cooperation with Damen), and another batch of KCR 60 (60 meter missile boat) next year or in 2022. PT PAL military division production facility could also reach full capacity if tender for 2 LPD for Philippine Navy can be taken as well next year as the project that was previously halted due to pandemic effect has been resumed according to Pinoy fanboys. We know Pinoy has started buying weapon again this year.

PT Palindo Marine design of OPV 110 meter for Indonesian Coast Guard (Bakamla) IMO has incorporated some possible weapon integration like VLS at front hull and possible 2-4 SSM launchers in the middle of the hull as we can see on their design below.

Its really a nice design, the 110 m OPV, and BAKAMLA needs more of it. But even if its FFBNW, there has to be some cooperation/co-design with PAL to be sure that the design is really suitable to add later more systems.

2. The acquisition process for the third and fourth LPD was already on hold before the Covid-19 outbreak.

3. I wonder why PAL should cooperate with Koninklijke Schelde (Damen Shipyards) for a submarine project. None of Damen companies are able to design and build submarines at the moment, thats why they want to join with a foreign company (Kockums if im not wrong) for the Walrusklasse replacement.

4. Odins? Never heard about that company....

 

[Ahmad]

Its really a nice design, the 110 m OPV, and BAKAMLA needs more of it. But even if its FFBNW, there has to be some cooperation/co-design with PAL to be sure that the design is really suitable to add later more systems.

2. The acquisition process for the third and fourth LPD was already on hold before the Covid-19 outbreak.

3. I wonder why PAL should cooperate with Koninklijke Schelde (Damen Shipyards) for a submarine project. None of Damen companies are able to design and build submarines at the moment, thats why they want to join with a foreign company (Kockums if im not wrong) for the Walrusklasse replacement.

4. Odins? Never heard about that company....

Yup, of course there should be some sort of cooperation with PT PAL for design to make it easier for possible weapon and sensor integration.

Typo for submarine, I mean DSME from South Korea and I have edited my previous post, thanks for correction

Another typo for frigate, it should be Odense from Denmark, not Odin he he

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

PT Dock Kodja Bahari, another state owned shipbuilding company beside PT PAL, has delivered 2 LST vessels for Indonesian Navy.

KRI Teluk Kendari 518 and KRI Teluk Kupang 519

Defense spending during Jokowi period are mostly used for supporting role instead of catchy order like fighters and others since that is that can be provided by our local defense industries at the moment.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1336212587977998343

A nice video of KRI Teluk Kendari 518 and KRI Teluk Kupang 519. These two ships seems to be AT-1 and AT-2

The sequence of construction and the numbers of the ships are really confusing.
For some reason there are also two versions, a 117 m one and a 120 m long one. This Wikipedia article gives some overview.

Teluk Bintuni-class tank landing ship - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

But both versions are armed with old recycled second (or third) hands manually operated 40 mm guns in order to make them totally defenceless against anti-ship missiles and aircrafts.

It is good that warships for supporting roles are ordered and built by local shipyards, because TNI-AL also needs them, but this was already done long before the jokowi-administration. The only difference is that during the last administration only ships are ordered which are useless for patrols in Laut Natuna, no deterrence, lack of firepower or too slow.

 

[tonnyc]

@Sandhi Yudha The AT series of ships have confusing numbering and construction sequence because Dok Kodja Bahari was/is in financial trouble. They got the first contract for the AT series and thus got the first two numbers but was unable to finish it for years. They must have gotten a fresh influx of money which they then used to finish those ships.

If you search Indonesian news sites for the company you will find articles talking about their financial woes and mismanagement. They are unfortunately a state owned company and our government has this tendency to feel like they can't allow a state owned enterprise to collapse. Not going to talk about it much since it is only tangentially defense related, but DKB ought to be dissolved, its assets sold to pay creditors, and its existing contracts either written off or handed to better managed shipyards. Off the top of my head there are DRU, PAL, Palindo (privately owned), Lundin (can't handle big ships though), and so on. This babying of DKB is a mistake.

 

[Ananda]

There is still chance for PT Palindo Marine to win OPV tender for Indonesian Navy for 2 vessels if the tender is only for FFBW configuration.

Palindo Marine design based on Surabaya company Terafluk design. It's not a design that being optimised for Naval Standard. It's still a design that based on Civilian Patrol purpose. Similar with the design being used by other Civilian Maritime agency like Fisheries and SAR. It's not that easy to modified Civilian based design into Navalised design.

The most likely design for OPV will still be from PAL. Either the one that they shown in Manila Defense exhibition:

Or the one they already put sometime ago attached. Simply because those design developed from KCR 60, thus already meet Navalised standard.

However if the Frigates program do moving on with both Odense and MHI based Frigates design, I do believe PAL will be in full capacity for Frigates program. Thus the OPV has potential will be sign on to Private shipyard in Batam or Banten area, including potential Palindo or DRU.

It's just like Bintuni class LST. The design own by DKB but being build by Private Shipyard due to DKB messy management.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Palindo Marine design based on Surabaya company Terafluk design. It's not a design that being optimised for Naval Standard. It's still a design that based on Civilian Patrol purpose. Similar with the design being used by other Civilian Maritime agency like Fisheries and SAR. It's not that easy to modified Civilian based design into Navalised design.

The most likely design for OPV will still be from PAL. Either the one that they shown in Manila Defense exhibition:

Or the one they already put sometime ago attached. Simply because those design developed from KCR 60, thus already meet Navalised standard.

However if the Frigates program do moving on with both Odense and MHI based Frigates design, I do believe PAL will be in full capacity for Frigates program. Thus the OPV has potential will be sign on to Private shipyard in Batam or Banten area, including potential Palindo or DRU.

The design shown to the Philippines is little bit similar with Lürssens Darussalam Class of the Royal Brunei Navy.
Its a nice design, like the two designs based on the KCR-60.
And also DRU's OPV 90 m can make a chance.

 

[Ahmad]

Palindo Marine design based on Surabaya company Terafluk design. It's not a design that being optimised for Naval Standard. It's still a design that based on Civilian Patrol purpose. Similar with the design being used by other Civilian Maritime agency like Fisheries and SAR. It's not that easy to modified Civilian based design into Navalised design.

The most likely design for OPV will still be from PAL. Either the one that they shown in Manila Defense exhibition:

Or the one they already put sometime ago attached. Simply because those design developed from KCR 60, thus already meet Navalised standard.

However if the Frigates program do moving on with both Odense and MHI based Frigates design, I do believe PAL will be in full capacity for Frigates program. Thus the OPV has potential will be sign on to Private shipyard in Batam or Banten area, including potential Palindo or DRU.

It's just like Bintuni class LST. The design own by DKB but being build by Private Shipyard due to DKB messy management.

This is PT PAL 90 m OPV design for Navy. It is uploaded in November 2019 and I believe it is the one that is competing in the tender. The design look exactly like KCR 60.

DRU design is more like corvette

 

[Ananda]

design shown to the Philippines is little bit similar with Lürssens Darussalam Class of the Royal Brunei Navy.

Well PAL and BPPT learn from Habibie era to design Naval Ship with Lürssens. KCR 60 is their development from FPB57.

During my career period with one of the SOE Bank, got chances talk with PAL people. That time they're trying to revive Kornas (National Corvettes) project, using the design that they're developed from their project with Fincantieri. Somehow Damen over take the project, and move with Dipenegoro class SIGMA 9113 design.

That design from what I heard in beginning supposed to be build 2+2 in Damen and PAL. Again Damen able to take all works with them, and only work with PAL on enlarge design of SIGMA 10514 PKR.

Rumours circulate that unlike co-op with Lurssen before in Habibie era or even with Fincantieri, PAL can't have license to developed Sigma design on their own. Thus this's perhaps one of the reasons why SIGMA DAMEN project with PAL being hold after the two PKR.

All this shown why even though other private shipyards in Indonesia already able to build Patrol ships in the size of OPV, I'm still skeptical they can work out Navalised design on their own.

Navalised design from what I heard from PAL people, need expertise on designs the interiors and hull shape for Naval standard. The superstructure is the easy parts, the interior and hull shape is different thing.

PAL working out with foreign established players for hull and interiors. They have to build hull with enough silencing method to hunt submarine. This's required experience in calculate water flow interaction with the hull shape to reduce the noise for one thing. At the same time the hull need to provide stability and agility for more riggerous naval demand.

The Interior need to provide efficient damage control but with easy operational environment. Frankly speaking that's what I got from talking with them and reading it on line. Point is, that experience which make PAL need foreign partner (Lurssen before for Patrol ships), and now Odense or perhaps MHI for Frigates.

It's different on building Patrol ships design for Civilian Maritime agency like Bakamla/Coast Guard, Fisheries, SAR, Custom, or even Police. They don't need riggerous Naval Standard, that's why Local Private Shipyard and Private design company can do it.

 

[Ananda]

is PT PAL 90 m OPV design for Navy. It is uploaded in November 2019 and I believe it is the one that is competing in the tender. The design look exactly like KCR 60.

The design that they shown in Manila is more OPV design. The design that you shown is basically the same design that I put as attachment in my previous post. Just like I said in my post, it's development of KCR 60, thus perhaps more in line as Corvettes. Both of them still can be choose.

It's back to TNI-AL eventually. When I see the "OPV" design circulate in Media and Online sources, I keep wondering if what TNI-AL wants is not OPV but Corvettes. That PAL design that they're bringing to Manilla, is in my opinion the only design from Local Shipyards that really design as "Navalised" OPV and not Corvettes likes as other designs.

 

[Ananda]

I know this is old design, and seems not having chances to be revive. However at the time when PAL try to revive Kornas program in last decade, it's in my opinion better design then Damen 9113. Anyway it's shown clear Fincantieri line, somehow personally I like their design better than Damen ones.

I always regret why they (MinDef) go with Damen and not Fincantieri-PAL design. Guess Damen is better in 'knowing' how to Lobby.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

I know this is old design, and seems not having chances to be revive. However at the time when PAL try to revive Kornas program in last decade, it's in my opinion better design then Damen 9113. Anyway it's shown clear Fincantieri line, somehow personally I like their design better than Damen ones.

I always regret why they (MinDef) go with Damen and not Fincantieri-PAL design. Guess Damen is better in 'knowing' how to Lobby.

Yes, if im not wrong the design was based on the Comandanti class. Compared to the SIGMA 9113, its smaller, slower, less range, less advanced and also very lightly armed. As a replacement for the Claud Jones Class, maybe TNI-AL needed something with more teeth, besides that TNI-AL has more experience/is more used to the systems of Hollandse Signaalapparaten.

 

[Ananda]

Compared to the SIGMA 9113, its smaller, slower, less range, less advanced and also very lightly armed.

True, Comandanti is slightly smaller and less powerful engine setup in the original design. However the design that Fincantieri-PAL put seems being modified.

However it's not that the reason I say that I regret Damen being choose rather than Fincantieri-PAL design. It's more to Fincantieri already agree the design will also can be used by PAL. Thus it's a join design effort. In sense PAL can use and modified it later on, just like they are doing with LPD that originated from Daesun and the patrol boats with Lurssen design. Something that I heard is not that clear cut with the Damen.