Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Sandhi Yudha]

Airbus Military signs contract with Indonesia for nine C295 aircraft - Defense Update:

Airbus Military has signed today, Fabruary 15th, a firm contract with PT Dirgantara Indonesia (PT DI) to supply nine C295 military transport aircraft for delivery to the Indonesian Ministry of Defense.

defense-update.com

I think either me or someone else already put this long time ago in Indonesia Air Force thread. However anyway I put it again. This article shown that DI involved with manufacturing on some section of C-295. Not doing anything new as many section from CN-235 is similar with C-295. After all C-295 is stretch CN-235 with more powerful engine. Both also share similarities on wing components.

So DI always got order from CASA or Airbus Military now on some parts of C-295 due to similarities with CN-235. It's make sense rather than Airbus must build another line in Seville, when they can just order from existing CN-235 line at DI's facility in Bandung for C-295.

Thanks, yes for all CN235 (delivered by CASA or IPTN) IPTN produce the tail section, aft part of the fuselage and outer parts for the wing, so it is logic that IPTN now also make the tail section, rear fuselage and some fuselage panels of the C295.

After the 9 C295 and 1 C295 MPA for the air force and 1 C295 for POLRI, there are no more C295 orders, right?

 

[Ananda]

After the 9 C295 and 1 C295 MPA for the air force and 1 C295 for POLRI, there are no more C295 orders, right ?

As far as I know, no further order for C295 yet..at least officially. Anyway the AF now designated that C295 MPA as C295 SM (Special Mission). Rumours said that the electronics and sensors are going to be developed with more ISTAR capabilities than previous CN235 MPA, Although at present it's still more in tune for MPA roles.

 

[Ananda]

Indonesia Looking at Iver Huitfeldt-class Frigate to Boost TNI-AL's Blue Water Force - Naval News

The Indonesian Government appears to be moving forward with a plan to procure two large displacement frigates for the Indonesian Navy (TNI-AL). The frigates would be based on the Danish Iver Huitfeldt-class and built at local shipyard PT PAL.

www.navalnews.com

Xavier wrote article on Iver Huitfeldt based design become leading contender for Indonesian Navy Large Frigate program.
Nothing really much new on the article that hasn't been put before including in this thread. The talk of 2 Iver based, talk on Indonesian Navy wants something larger then Sigma 10514 (which is basically Light Frigate-Corvette) and talk of Oddense will give complete tech transfer to PAL.

On the other side, there're sign on increasing cooperation with Danish supplier like in radar and sensor (Terma), and there's increasing support from some cabinet members on Defense cooperation with Danes.
Anyhow despite more sign showing Oddense increase chances to win the contract, PAL it self keep maintain contacts with Damen and Naval group. Thus in my opinion potential Damen with it's Omega Frigate based or Naval Group Belharra/FTI based designs to win still open.

From rumours in local media and forums, talk on TNI-AL wants to have Frigate design of 4500-6000 tons, multi-role but emphasis on area AAW and capable long range durations and at least able to take on 32 VLS of Mk-41 or Sylver A50 class. All three designs shown the capabilities for that..

 

[Ananda]

Indonesia signs preamble contract for first Iver Huitfeldt-variant frigate

The Indonesian Ministry of Defence (MOD) has signed a preamble contract that paves the way for the country to procure its first-ever frigate from Denmark.

www.janes.com

Jane's put article that Indonesian MinDef already sign preliminary contract with Odense Agent in Indonesia. Thus seems signs increasingly shown that Iver Huitfeldt based design will be use as TNI-AL Frigate.
The rumours on Local forum and media talk about 8 Frigates program. As I have post in this thread years ago, 8 Frigates is being envisage for some time by TNI-AL even from the 80's. Back then the talk about 6 General Purpose Frigates (in form of 6 ex Dutch Van Speijk) and 2 AAW-Comand Frigates (in form of 2 ex Dutch Tromp).

Only Van Speijk come to fruition, while problem in East Timor and Asian Financial crisis hold TNI-AL ambition for AAW Frigates. Those vision still being pursue by TNI-AL with Sigma 10514 position to replace Van Speijk and Larger size Frigates for AAW capabilities.

Question now, if this 8 Frigates vision still being pursue, is what will be the composition. Whether still 6 Sigma 10514/PKR Light Frigates plus 2 Larger size Frigates (which increasingly shown to be Iver Based), or the rumours talk of 4 PKR/Light Frigates and 4 Large Frigates. Some even suggest that Sigma PKR program will not be continue, and all Van Speijk (as TNI-AL current primary Frigates) will be all being replace by this Large Frigate program (which increasingly shown to be Iver based).

Will remain to be seen.

 

[tonnyc]

I came here to post the news about Iver and Ananda did it first.

I am ambivalent about this news. I am not surprised though. There has been talk as early as 2016 (maybe even earlier) that a faction in the Indonesian Navy wants the Iver Huitfeldt and I guess they finally got their wish. But since both the Iver and the SIGMA 10514 are frigates, getting the Iver Huitfeldt means not getting more SIGMA now and regardless of whether they will eventually get more SIGMA, less commonality in the navy.

Oh well. We'll see.

 

[ngatimozart]

I came here to post the news about Iver and Ananda did it first.

I am ambivalent about this news. I am not surprised though. There has been talk as early as 2016 (maybe even earlier) that a faction in the Indonesian Navy wants the Iver Huitfeldt and I guess they finally got their wish. But since both the Iver and the SIGMA 10514 are frigates, getting the Iver Huitfeldt means not getting more SIGMA now and regardless of whether they will eventually get more SIGMA, less commonality in the navy.

Oh well. We'll see.

Who will they get to build the Ivers?. Does Indonesia have a yard capable of such a build? I am asking because OMT no longer has a shipyard.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Who will they get to build the Ivers?. Does Indonesia have a yard capable of such a build? I am asking because OMT no longer has a shipyard.

The plan is that (through ToT from Odense and with SIGMA 10514 experience) PT PAL will build the Ivers.

Indonesia signs preamble contract for first Iver Huitfeldt-variant frigate

The Indonesian Ministry of Defence (MOD) has signed a preamble contract that paves the way for the country to procure its first-ever frigate from Denmark.

www.janes.com

Jane's put article that Indonesian MinDef already sign preliminary contract with Odense Agent in Indonesia. Thus seems signs increasingly shown that Iver Huitfeldt based design will be use as TNI-AL Frigate.
The rumours on Local forum and media talk about 8 Frigates program. As I have post in this thread years ago, 8 Frigates is being envisage for some time by TNI-AL even from the 80's. Back then the talk about 6 General Purpose Frigates (in form of 6 ex Dutch Van Speijk) and 2 AAW-Comand Frigates (in form of 2 ex Dutch Tromp).

Only Van Speijk come to fruition, while problem in East Timor and Asian Financial crisis hold TNI-AL ambition for AAW Frigates. Those vision still being pursue by TNI-AL with Sigma 10514 position to replace Van Speijk and Larger size Frigates for AAW capabilities.

Question now, if this 8 Frigates vision still being pursue, is what will be the composition. Whether still 6 Sigma 10514/PKR Light Frigates plus 2 Larger size Frigates (which increasingly shown to be Iver Based), or the rumours talk of 4 PKR/Light Frigates and 4 Large Frigates. Some even suggest that Sigma PKR program will not be continue, and all Van Speijk (as TNI-AL current primary Frigates) will be all being replace by this Large Frigate program (which increasingly shown to be Iver based).

Will remain to be seen.

Personally i do not really care if we get 2 SIGMA 10514s and 6 Ivers, or 6 SIGMAs and 2 Ivers or any other combination. The most important thing is that we quickly can replace the old Van Speijks. However the wish of 8 frigates is from the time that we have two fleets, Koarmarbar and Koarmartim, and now we have three fleets, Komando Armada I, II and III.
So the number of ships has to be devidable in three, 3+3 or 3+6. That means at least one more SIGMA is needed.

 

[ngatimozart]

Thanks for that @Sandhi Yudha I quite like the Ivers so if you go ahead with them, I think that you will have acquired a good ship.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

I came here to post the news about Iver and Ananda did it first.

I am ambivalent about this news. I am not surprised though. There has been talk as early as 2016 (maybe even earlier) that a faction in the Indonesian Navy wants the Iver Huitfeldt and I guess they finally got their wish. But since both the Iver and the SIGMA 10514 are frigates, getting the Iver Huitfeldt means not getting more SIGMA now and regardless of whether they will eventually get more SIGMA, less commonality in the navy.

Oh well. We'll see.

Less commonality than a new serie of SIGMA, but the Iver Huitfeldts are equipped with the SMART-L and APAR and other systems from Hollandse Signaalapparaten (Thales Nederland).

I expect (and hope) that the Indonesian order also includes these components, and not downgraded and stripped down to a navigation radar and some simple systems for small patrolboats.
I also hope that at a later stage some decent weaponsystems will be installed.

Thanks for that @Sandhi Yudha I quite like the Ivers so if you go ahead with them, I think that you will have acquired a good ship.

Youre welcome...

 

[Ananda]

But since both the Iver and the SIGMA 10514 are frigates, getting the Iver Huitfeldt means not getting more SIGMA now and regardless of whether they will eventually get more SIGMA, less commonality in the navy.

commonality than a new serie of SIGMA, but the Iver Huitfeldts are equipped with the SMART-L

Well if the 'rumours' in Local Media and Forum true that Terma set will be use instead Thales set, then what tonnyc said on less commonality with PKR will happen.
Terma already being used for Fatahilla mid life upgrade, thus if Terma suit being use on this Iver based Frigates project, there's also 'potential' for Terma gaining more place as standard Electronics and Sensors set for future TNI-AL project. If that happen, then potential of PKR project terminated can also happen.

This if TNI-AL choose standardisation on their future warships.

Does Indonesia have a yard capable of such a build? I am asking because OMT no longer has a shipyard.

In paper PAL facilities have capabilities for building up to 150 m warships. A Private Shipyard in Batam also already capable to produce OPV up to 110 m.
But yes, just like Sandhi post, the plan for Frigates program just like PKR will be done by PAL. Up until now, eventough another Yards in Batam shown capable building OPV's for Coast Guard but PAL still so far that has experience on manufacturing and system plus weapon integration on Frigates.

Iver choice also shown Indonesian MinDef attracted to promise of stanflex system flexibility. Potential build Frigates or OPV based on stanflex can be one of the factor.

 

[swerve]

Well if the 'rumours' in Local Media and Forum true that Terma set will be use instead Thales set, then what tonnyc said on less commonality with PKR will happen.
Terma already being used for Fatahilla mid life upgrade, thus if Terma suit being use on this Iver based Frigates project, there's also 'potential' for Terma gaining more place as standard Electronics and Sensors set for future TNI-AL project. If that happen, then potential of PKR project terminated can also happen.
...

Terma's naval radars are all small. Good reputation (e.g. the Royal Navy & RAN have them on OPVs), but not suitable for anything more than patrol vessels & small fighting ships such as the Fatahilla class, which has a quarter of the tonnage of Iver Huitfeldt. They're in a completely different league from Smart-L, which is a massive, high-powered long-range radar for air defence ships & ballistic missile defence. You could fit something smaller to a frigate (& most navies do), but a Terma radar isn't enough. The Royal Navy's new Iver Huitfeldt based Type 31 won't have the long range air defence role of the original, so doesn't need anything like Smart-L, but it will have the Thales NS110, a capable modern AESA medium range radar.

I can imagine Terma supplying secondary radars for new frigates, but not primary. Iver Huitfeldt & her sisters have a Terma Scanter 6000 - as their third radar, after SMART-L for long range & APAR for medium range & fire control.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Terma's naval radars are all small. Good reputation (e.g. the Royal Navy & RAN have them on OPVs), but not suitable for anything more than patrol vessels & small fighting ships such as the Fatahilla class, which has a quarter of the tonnage of Iver Huitfeldt. They're in a completely different league from Smart-L, which is a massive, high-powered long-range radar for air defence ships & ballistic missile defence. You could fit something smaller to a frigate (& most navies do), but a Terma radar isn't enough. The Royal Navy's new Iver Huitfeldt based Type 31 won't have the long range air defence role of the original, so doesn't need anything like Smart-L, but it will have the Thales NS110, a capable modern AESA medium range radar.

I can imagine Terma supplying secondary radars for new frigates, but not primary. Iver Huitfeldt & her sisters have a Terma Scanter 6000 - as their third radar, after SMART-L for long range & APAR for medium range & fire control.

Yes, on the Fatahillah Class (on at least one vessel) the Hollandse Signaalapparaten DA-05 is replaced by the Terma Scanter 4100 2D air&surface surveillance radar. With a range of 30 nm/55 km for helicopters and a maximum range for larget targets of 110 nm/203 km, good enough for light frigates, corvettes and patrolboats, but its not enough for large high-end frigates/destroyers.
And the Scanter 6000 has been specifically designed as an affordable all-weather 2D sensor solution to plug the gap between standard marine navigation radars and more expensive military surveillance radar systems, with a 10-15 nm range for aircrafts and 96 nm/178 km for larger targets.

So probably in the end the Indonesian navy will get a class of large formidable multirole $360 million frigates, but in a downgraded poor man's Third World Country FFBNW-version....

I hope that we are wrong.

 

[Ananda]

Good reputation (e.g. the Royal Navy & RAN have them on OPVs), but not suitable for anything more than patrol vessels & small fighting ships such as the Fatahilla class, which has a quarter of the tonnage of Iver Huitfeldt. They're in a completely different league from Smart-L, which is a massive, high-powered long-range radar for air defence ships & ballistic missile defence. You could fit something smaller to a frigate (& most navies do), but a Terma radar isn't enough. The Royal Navy's new Iver Huitfeldt based Type 31 won't have the long range air defence role of the original, so doesn't need anything like Smart-L, but it will have the Thales NS110, a capable modern AESA medium range radar.

Yes, so far besides for Fatahilla Corvettes, Terma electronics and radar suits are being used by TNI AL for domestic/PAL build missile boats (KCR 60). However the 'rumours' in local forum and media talk about Terma-Hendsoldt radar suits for this Iver based Frigates project.
It's quite a surprise since the Sigma 9113 Dipenogoro class Corvettes, The Bung Tomo class Corvettes (ex Brunai Nahkoda Ragam), and the PKR Sigma 10514 Light Frigates are all using Thales suits.

Below picture I got it from local forum defense-studies blogspot, which seems got information from sources close on the project (perhaps from Odense Agent in Indonesia, I suspect). Thus seems not only the Danes beat the Dutch on the Frigate design, but also Danes-German team beat the Dutch on suppliers of electronics and sensors project.
I suspect this's not only related to more attractive package offer from Terma-Hendsoldt compared to Thales, but perhaps Terma offer more attractive Tech transfer/ToT package to local electronics manufacturer (I suspect State Owned Electronics company LEN) part of the reason too.

Thales with most of TNI-AL existing capital ships using their electronics suit, were front runner before on the electronics project. Thus why, I suspect potential deal on Tech Transfer (as Odense did in the Frigate design) in electronics package are big part of the reasoning.

 

[spoz]

Nothing wrong with the TRS 4D if that is to be the principal surveillance radar. I don’t think it will do BMD but as an AAW system it’s pretty competent.

And, I agree with ngatimozart - if TNI is going with that design, they’ll be getting a good one. After all, one pretty high end and one very competent middle ranked Navy have already gone there.

 

[Ananda]

don’t think it will do BMD but as an AAW system it’s pretty competent.

No, I don't think this Large Frigate Project for TNI-AL ever being design for BMD. It's going to be GP Frigates at most, with ASWA, ASuW and AAW generalist capabilities. TNI doesn't not have budget yet for specialise Frigates let alone BMD. Besides, the choices of electronics as you have put, shown that.

With MBDA closeness to TNI, and VL MICA already choose as AAW point defence missile in PKR Light Frigates, I suspect Aster family become main AAW missile for this Frigates.
PKR already used Sylver A35, and I do suspect this Iver based Frigates for TNI-AL will not used Mk-41 and SM-2 as in Iver, but probably Sylver A50 or A70. It might be less flexibility then Mk-41, however TNI have more experience with MBDA products.

Again it's all depends on overall package, as they can change as Terma-Hendsoldt able to defeat Thales in the competition. I just suspect on missile, TNI-AL will prone to stick with MBDA products.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Yes, so far besides for Fatahilla Corvettes, Terma electronics and radar suits are being used by TNI AL for domestic/PAL build missile boats (KCR 60). However the 'rumours' in local forum and media talk about Terma-Hendsoldt radar suits for this Iver based Frigates project.
It's quite a surprise since the Sigma 9113 Dipenogoro class Corvettes, The Bung Tomo class Corvettes (ex Brunai Nahkoda Ragam), and the PKR Sigma 10514 Light Frigates are all using Thales suits.

Below picture I got it from local forum defense-studies blogspot, which seems got information from sources close on the project (perhaps from Odense Agent in Indonesia, I suspect). Thus seems not only the Danes beat the Dutch on the Frigate design, but also Danes-German team beat the Dutch on suppliers of electronics and sensors project.
I suspect this's not only related to more attractive package offer from Terma-Hendsoldt compared to Thales, but perhaps Terma offer more attractive Tech transfer/ToT package to local electronics manufacturer (I suspect State Owned Electronics company LEN) part of the reason too.

Thales with most of TNI-AL existing capital ships using their electronics suit, were front runner before on the electronics project. Thus why, I suspect potential deal on Tech Transfer (as Odense did in the Frigate design) in electronics package are big part of the reasoning.

TNI-AL is for many years a loyal costumer for Koninklijke Schelde en Hollandse Signaalapparaten products, but if the Danish package offers better ToT, than its understandable that Indonesia choose for Odense and Terma Hensoldt. Denmark.

And looking to TRS-4D Fixed Panel - Multi-function surveillance and target acquisition radar | HENSOLDT , the TRS-4D is not bad at all! If this become really part of the package.
The specifications are even better than APAR or NS100, and similar to the Sea Master 400.

Well, lets hope and wait until the first ship is delivered.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Well if the 'rumours' in Local Media and Forum true that Terma set will be use instead Thales set, then what tonnyc said on less commonality with PKR will happen.
Terma already being used for Fatahilla mid life upgrade, thus if Terma suit being use on this Iver based Frigates project, there's also 'potential' for Terma gaining more place as standard Electronics and Sensors set for future TNI-AL project. If that happen, then potential of PKR project terminated can also happen.

This if TNI-AL choose standardisation on their future warships.





In paper PAL facilities have capabilities for building up to 150 m warships. A Private Shipyard in Batam also already capable to produce OPV up to 110 m.
But yes, just like Sandhi post, the plan for Frigates program just like PKR will be done by PAL. Up until now, eventough another Yards in Batam shown capable building OPV's for Coast Guard but PAL still so far that has experience on manufacturing and system plus weapon integration on Frigates.

Iver choice also shown Indonesian MinDef attracted to promise of stanflex system flexibility. Potential build Frigates or OPV based on stanflex can be one of the factor.

Do you know if more large patrol vessels are ordered or is KN Tanjung Datu-1101, which is made by PT. Palindo Marine Shipyard, a unique one time order?

 

[tonnyc]

Do you know if more large patrol vessels are ordered or is KN Tanjung Datu-1101, which is made by PT. Palindo Marine Shipyard, a unique one time order?

To the best of my knowledge, there is currently no existing order for a ship of that size for any of Indonesia's various civilian maritime agencies.

BAKAMLA's original plan is to get four of those 110 m OPV, but as you can tell from the lack of order, it didn't happen. BAKAMLA's budget was cut in half in 2017, forcing them to scrap all the big ship plans.

In 2020 BAKAMLA asked for 5 trillion rupiah ($354 million), but DPR only granted them a 400 billion rupiah budget ($29 million). This is supposedly due to a major corruption case back in 2016, but still IMO that's an over-reaction. Sure it can be argued that 5 trillion is too much, that parliament is hesitant to trust BAKAMLA with a lot of money after a high profile corruption case, and so on, but come on! The case was back in 2016. I can see the 2017 cut as reaction, but all the way to today?! That's ridiculous. At least restore their budget back to 2016 level (900 billion rupiah = $64 million) so they can buy some ships.

EDIT: The above links are all in Indonesian, since it wasn't exactly covered by international news agencies, but using a translation program should get you the gist of the articles.

 

[Ananda]

I suspect this's more related to the politicall bickering on how far Bakamla power/authority should be. I believe just like my previous post on Bakamla, there're too many 'conflicting interest' which back each maritime agencies toward maritime jurisdiction 'slice of cake'.

Now Jokowi seems already put his administration support for Bakamla as Coast Guard that going take lead on maritime jurisdiction. However this support can only have real meaning if the execution in the field being back up by sufficient budget and legal jurisdiction. This means cutting budget and jurisdiction power from other agencies which each of them has their own politicall backing.

Those 110m and 80m OPV's are being constructed to give Bakamla assets that can handle other coast guard in SCS (especially the Chinese ones), and provide capabilities for Bakamla to conduct proper modern coast guard duties.
This will be interesting if this administration have 'balls' to stream line other maritime agencies in favour of Bakamla as Primary Coast Guard.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

I suspect this's more related to the politicall bickering on how far Bakamla power/authority should be. I believe just like my previous post on Bakamla, there're too many 'conflicting interest' which back each maritime agencies toward maritime jurisdiction 'slice of cake'.

Now Jokowi seems already put his administration support for Bakamla as Coast Guard that going take lead on maritime jurisdiction. However this support can only have real meaning if the execution in the field being back up by sufficient budget and legal jurisdiction. This means cutting budget and jurisdiction power from other agencies which each of them has their own politicall backing.

Those 110m and 80m OPV's are being constructed to give Bakamla assets that can handle other coast guard in SCS (especially the Chinese ones), and provide capabilities for Bakamla to conduct proper modern coast guard duties.
This will be interesting if this administration have 'balls' to stream line other maritime agencies in favour of Bakamla as Primary Coast Guard.

Thank you Ananda!

Some developments at PT PAL...
"KRI Sampari (628), Kapal Cepat Rudal 60 M Generasi Pertama Buatan #PTPALIndonesia ..

KRI Sampari (628) merupakan satu dari tiga kapal KCR 60M generasi pertama yang dipesan TNI AL kepada #PTPALIndonesia. #KRISampari628 sedang melakukan #docking rutin selama 14 hari kalender untuk menjaga performa tetap baik. .. "

So, KRI Sampari 628, one of the first batch of three KCR-60 fast missile boats, is now under a two weeks maintenance program.

Although its classified as 'fast', the top speed is just 28 kts.
Its equipped with an old second hand Bofors 40 mm gun.

I just wonder if the gun is manually operated and if the CMS is still chinese or already replaced by Danish systems.