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Indonesia: 'green water navy'

Discussion in 'Navy & Maritime' started by Supe, Jun 28, 2005.

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  1. Ananda

    Ananda Well-Known Member

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    This is footage from CNN Indonesia on Indonesian domestic Defense Industry. I'm not going to talk much on the video or their reporting opinion, but more on the footage from 35 sec - 40 sec of the video.

    In that portion of Video shown PAL graphics on their manufacturing portion from 3rd sub (last Sub from 1st batch) to 6th sub (last Sub from 2nd batch) with DSME.
    This consistent with what PAL already put from several years ago. The DSME 1400 Sub is divided on 6 modules:
    3rd Sub PAL assemble all 6 modules manufactured by DSME.
    4th Sub PAL build 2 modules send it to DSME Wich build 4 modules to be assembles.
    5th Sub DSME build 2 modules send it to PAL which build 4 modules to be assembles.
    6th Sub PAL build all 6 modules to achieve full manufacturing stage.

    This shown even PAL still in line with DSME for 2 batch of 6 Submarine program. If this administration consistent (which in Video it's also being emphasize on the need of consistency of Defense Industry development policy), then this talk of another type submarine asside DSME 1400 should be for next batch of Submarine program (call it of 3rd batch).
    To make the whole program worth, PAL should finish the plan 6 Subs with DSME as already put in the motion.

    Let's see how consistent this administration will be. Because the problem in this administration first tem is on consistency of plan and Implementations.
     
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  2. Ananda

    Ananda Well-Known Member

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    This video from PAL, during trial of 3rd Sub of 1st batch seems shown confirmation of 2nd batch of 209-1400 projects as slides on previous video post.

    Seems the maritime domestic defense Industry framework has more definitive path then the plan development of Fighter project.
     
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  3. Sandhi Yudha

    Sandhi Yudha Active Member

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    I understand that a Type 209 is not as deterrent as a Scorpene, Type 214 or Project 636 submarine, but these classes are way more expensive than the Type 209/1400 from DSME. The Type 209/1400 is just a good submarine and TNI-AL needs more than just 5 good subs to cover the largest archipelago on the world.
    Buying 6 submarines is nice, but being able to build it (in steps and with a learning curve) is invaluable.

    I only hope that in the future TNI-AL will also get subs with a capability to use anti-ship and land target cruise missiles.
     
  4. Ananda

    Ananda Well-Known Member

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    This the most important thing, how to be consistent on the framework for local development defense industry. DSME 1400 is Improve Changbogo and as Changbogo has capabilities for SSM, then it should be not difficult to add SSM capabilities.

    However the most important thing is to maintain sustainable order to Submarine program. We see what happen to Dutch that neglected in sustainable submarine project. Now the have to jump star it again with the help of either French Naval Group or Swedish SAAB.

    This is what the most important thing, sustainable defense project.
    For me, instead 214, A-26, or Scorpene, I prefer for the batch after the 2nd batch to still with DSME on their DSME 2000. This is the Sub that basically combine aspects of 209, 214 and their KSS3. Also ROKN not going to used it, thus it can be projects that PAL take the license for their own.

     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2020
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  5. Ananda

    Ananda Well-Known Member

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    Mau Kebut Proyek Kapal Selam, PT PAL Usul Tambahan Rp 1,7 T ke DPR

    From Detik On Line, with the hearing of PT. PAL in the Parliament. In short the ask IDR 1.7 trillion (USD 120+mio) for finishing their Submarine manufacturing infrastructure. PAL already stated in Media that their assembly submarine infrastructure is the First Phase, and they need 2nd Phase for more specialise facilities.

    They also confirm their plan that the 2nd batch is the 4th, 5th and 6th Submarines as continuation of existing program. They will be another batch of 6 Submarine from different program in future.
    Thus so far, PAL as main developer in domestic Defense Maritime Industry shown more clear framework, compared to Aerospace ones.
     
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  6. Sandhi Yudha

    Sandhi Yudha Active Member

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    The Koreans have some nice programs.
    It will be great if after nr.4, 5, 6 of the Type 209/1400 boats (Batch 2), PT PAL can move on to the DSME2000 class.
    About the DW2000 frigate....for some reason it seems that there are no plans to continue with the SIGMA 10514, this DW2000 can be a good alternative for that, some kind of scaled down Incheon class.
     
  7. Ahmad

    Ahmad Member

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    The contract for 3 other submarine actually has already been signed if I am not mistaken and the problem lies on Sri Mulyani reluctantcy to let the project go due to high interest rate of the Korean financing. Seems a hypocrite to me since Indonesia bond itself has interest rate much higher than it should be, even Pakistan can get a loan with lower interest rate than Indonesia.

    As history recorded, almost all contract that has been signed will be respected by Jokowi administration. We can see now how Su 35 contract is likely to be effective since the squadron that will get the fighter have already had SU 30/27 and Russian ambassador keep doing meeting with Prabowo. Maybe there will be some changes on the contract but IMO the government will still honor it in general. We can see also that Tiger medium tank contract have become effective.

    Jokowi administration in the past is favoring our own made defense products just like what we can see on Navy and Air Force acquisition. Buying LPD and KCR (missile boat) from PAL and LST from private local companies will not give as much notice as buying frigates for instant. Buying 9 NC 212i planes will also not give as much notice as buying fighters from other countries. Actually his commitment to our own defense industry has already been implemented with such contract during previous defense minister. There is of course some thing that could be done better particularly by implementing multi years financing and foreign loan as you mentioned several times in Indonesian threads.
     
  8. Ananda

    Ananda Well-Known Member

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    Since you refer to my previous post on Defence Industry Policy consistency. Let me ask you this, How a barter trade deal for SU-35 will be beneficial for our local Industry ? The trade deal will got some local Industry product, but will by pass local Defense Industry involvement. Thus what the benefits for local defense industry..which Jokowi himself stated time and time again as his administration framework on any defense procurement
    Let me ask you if any previous deal with Russian (from previous MinDef) including BTR-3F that involves local Industry ?

    The official framework since SBY and Jokowi's is to have Tech Transfer and Local Defense Industry involvement.
    It doesn't matter from that perspective whether to get Su-35, Rafale, F-16V..but there should be local Industry involvement, which can be various scheme from license production, spare parts production, MRO capabilities, Avionics co-op, or even not really related to Flankers but involvement on other area Tech Transfer..it can be in a missile tech, etc.

    However if you do it only on following the previous deal on Su-35..then what tech transfer and local Industry involvement ? They say Rosoboron will facilitate spare parts manufacturing locally..turn out it will be on separate deal/additional deal outside Su-35. When F-16 being bought in early 90's, IPTN got direct off set to build parts.

    So what's important is the consistency on the framework on any procurement. I don't like Flankers not because it is not a good Fighter, but more on economics on maintenance and support compared to other aircraft that more or less provide similar capabilities.
    However if it's still being choose, then this administration has make sure as their own framework dictate, the benefits for local defense Industry. If not, then what I said on several previous posts in various threads proved rights. This administration framework, plan and Implementations has no consistency.

    Hope on the second term, this administration shown much more consistency on their procurement planning and Implementations. You can say previous MinDef also shown consistency, but if it's so..then why the projects being done mostly legacy from SBY projects..while many their own projects implementation got delay or booged down on procurement process ?

    Blaming Ministry of Finance I have to say is wondering way of the problem. Many times Minister of Finance and their officials already talk that Defense Ministry has to improve their budget to be more in line with the expected costs. How you blame Finence Minister when Defense put the budget they are not calculating detail cost on implementation ? How many times they have to redo the budget cause there's changing cost in financing and other costs cause they change the specs ?

    I can't provide all the problem, since most only got from informal conversation with my colleagues in Finance Ministry. However you can see even from media how many times the talks of Defense Ministry official that the procurement process delay in Ministry of Finance.
    If previous MinDef doing the job well those kind of problem should be handle during procurement process planning and not when you already put procurement process to Ministry of Finance.

    This all what about why Ministry of Finance now demand more on better planning. All this talk of multi year budget are part of that.

    Again consistency on the policy framework and better planning is the one that need to be improve.
     
  9. Ananda

    Ananda Well-Known Member

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    Direktorat Jenderal Potensi Pertahanan Kemhan RI

    Seems Indonesian MinDef already officially open their plan for reverse engineering missiles project.
     
  10. Sandhi Yudha

    Sandhi Yudha Active Member

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    Maybe i understand it incorrectly, but it sounds like they openly announce "We now start to steal and copy foreign missile technology!"
    Well, thats quite stupid...

    Absorbing foreign technology and knowledge "the chinese way" is also quite un-Indonesian, until now it was always own development, ToT and licence construction.
     
  11. Ananda

    Ananda Well-Known Member

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    Not everyone can reverse engineering modern defense Tech. Infact reverse engineering in my opinion is one step ahead than license producing and tech transfer. Having the ability to absorb tech transfer and license producing, not the same with abilities on effective reverse engineering.

    That's why China able to build their own version of Flankers and then move on to developed their own design, while India for decades still stuck with licensing other people Fighter. Only after practically two decades of effort they are able to produce their own Fighter design recently. For that China Tech based in Aerospace still one step ahead of India in absorbing new tech and development of their own.

    I still don't know how far and effective this reverse engineering program will be. Missile tech is something that need to develop on your own based, if you want to have independent capabilities. Reverse engineering not always mean copies, but also can goes to using someone else tech as based on developing 'similar' but not direct copies product.

    Everyone in some part of their tech development is using 'reverse engineering' path on developing their own tech based.
     
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  12. Sandhi Yudha

    Sandhi Yudha Active Member

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    Tha
    Thats true. Lapan started experiments with rockets in the '60s, way before many other countries. And look where we are now after more than 50 years....still at the point of tiny experimental rockets, while countries like china, India, Iran, Pakistan and some others really made huge developments.

    So combining foreign principes, designs and ideas with LAPANs own is not such a bad idea. Maybe even the best way (with sufficient budget!) to really move forward.
    Only they shouldn't proudly call it reverse engineering...
     
  13. Ananda

    Ananda Well-Known Member

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    There's never been enough political incentive during Soeharto's era in supporting LAPAN and launch vehicles. Even during Habibie's as Technology Minister, he's more intend to build IPTN as regional Airliners manufacturer and PAL. There's also Political reason on that. Soeharto's did not want to be seen developing Technology that can be used for development of long range balistics missiles.

    However for SSM, ASM, or SAM there's interest on that area. The drive to build propellant manufacturing facilities also derived from the need to be more self reliant on missile Tech.
    Still, whatever the missiles you want to build, any country who wants to venture in that area need to build and relied on their own resources. Some rumours that I heard when MinDef official coming to Ukraine is also related to potential on cooperation for guidance sensors with Ukraine. Considering Ukraine need hard cash, selling Defense Tech is one area they are pursuing.