Indonesia: 'green water navy'
- Thread starter Supe
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Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Thank you for sharing.
It looks much larger and heavier than the Hitrole 12,7 mm. I wonder what the improments are, because they are both remote controlled 12,7 mm weaponstations from the same manufacturer.
Currently, there are multiple projects going on at PT PAL.
- W000304, first of the Arrowhead 140, steel cutting reported 9 Dec, 2022, laid down on 25 August, 2023
- W000305, second of class, status unknown
- W000306, first of two Philippines LPD, steel cutting reported on 10 Aug, 2023, laid down on 22 Jan, 2024
- W000307, second of two Philippines LPD, steel cutting reported on Jan, 2024
- W000308, UAE 163M LPD/Al Maryah, steel cutting reported on 28 Feb, 2024
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
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There's increasing signal that Indonesian MinDef increasingly looking to Turkiye on co-op in several area. Including missiles and seems they shown interest on ATMACA not only as Ship base SSM but also Land base SSM.
This is the arrangements that before being talk with China on C-705. However after the arrangements seems failing, and Indonesia try to move independently with reverse engineering of that missile for Indigenous SSM. Now the talk seems with Roketsan Turkiye for ATMACA.
Is the progress on reverse engineering of C-705 meet problem? Will Turkiye going to be used for partner for those indigenous project (MALE UAV and Indigenous SSM), or simply being put down and move toward licensing Turkiye products.
One thing for sure, this move toward Turkiye suppliers already rattled some defense insiders (aka sales people), especially from establish Euro Players. Now they spread talk in media, that sourcing from Turkiye meet dead end as no Financial Institutions wiling to provide 'market base' Credit Line for Turkiye products. Still seems so far MinDef sources still shown quite optimistic with Turkiye programs.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
|"The US Naval Air Warfare Center Aircraft Division (NAWCAD) has awarded a Foreign Military Sales (FMS) contract to upgrade three Indonesian Navy aircraft with enhanced maritime surveillance systems.
Under the contract, Oregon-based Integrated Surveillance and Defense (ISD) will upgrade two Indonesian Navy-operated Dirgantara CN235-220 MP maritime patrol aircraft (MPA) and modify one King Air 350i aircraft with “proven maritime surveillance systems."|
So that means that the other CN235 MPA's will stay unupgraded for the coming time.
Here some more details.
envzone.com
Bonus:
Here some nice photos of a recent exercise of the Second Fleet of the Indonesian Navy.
Under the contract, Oregon-based Integrated Surveillance and Defense (ISD) will upgrade two Indonesian Navy-operated Dirgantara CN235-220 MP maritime patrol aircraft (MPA) and modify one King Air 350i aircraft with “proven maritime surveillance systems."|
So that means that the other CN235 MPA's will stay unupgraded for the coming time.
ISD receives contract to upgrade Indonesian Navy's aircraft for maritime surveillance duties
The US Naval Air Warfare Center Aircraft Division (NAWCAD) has awarded a Foreign Military Sales (FMS) contract to upgrade three Indonesian Navy aircraft with enhanced...
www.janes.com
Here some more details.
$33.8M Contract Awarded to Integrated Surveillance and Defense, Inc. for CN-235 and KingAir 350i Aircraft | Procurement Records
Integrated Surveillance and Defense, Inc.,* Wilsonville, Oregon, is awarded a $33,800,553 firm-fixed-price contract to upgrade operational capabilities and
envzone.com
Bonus:
Here some nice photos of a recent exercise of the Second Fleet of the Indonesian Navy.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
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From Keris FB. Seems couple days ago PAL invite media including online enthusiasts defense media. Basically PAL want to give information on their achievement and next progress on naval building.
PAL also talk on their next project on Submarine. PAL claim they have capacity to build 2 submarine simultaneously. Also they're reiterate their CEO previous claim for Submarine, they are working with both NG and DSME (Hanwha Ocean). In short they are claiming in engaging production for both Scorpene and DSME 209 1400.
ISD was also contracted for the Malaysian CN235 MPA conversion under the Maritime Security Initiative (MSI), so it could well be the same suite.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Next time we have to go together with other Indonesian Defencetalk-members.Log into Facebook
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From Keris FB. Seems couple days ago PAL invite media including online enthusiasts defense media. Basically PAL want to give information on their achievement and next progress on naval building.
PAL also talk on their next project on Submarine. PAL claim they have capacity to build 2 submarine simultaneously. Also they're reiterate their CEO previous claim for Submarine, they are working with both NG and DSME (Hanwha Ocean). In short they are claiming in engaging production for both Scorpene and DSME 209 1400.
So PT PAL claims that they can construct at least 2 submarines at a time and als work on both Type 209/1400 and Scorpène programs? That's quite surprising and impressive if true...
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Personally I just wondering if they can get enough man power training for that kind of endeavor. Many in local media and forums seems just taking PAL statement, without benefit of doubt. I tend to believe more on their civilians capabilities. Still enough doubt they can jump capabilities and capacities on Naval program.
After all for decades their capabilities on naval warships limited to 60m Fast Patrol Boats, now they want to take build multiple Frigates and Subs on simultaneous projects? Let's see how well they're developing that Arrowhead 140 derivatives. So far there're enough rumours they facing delay on the progress. Well too much noise at this moment.
After all for decades their capabilities on naval warships limited to 60m Fast Patrol Boats, now they want to take build multiple Frigates and Subs on simultaneous projects? Let's see how well they're developing that Arrowhead 140 derivatives. So far there're enough rumours they facing delay on the progress. Well too much noise at this moment.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
It's officially sign contract for 2 PPA for Indonesian Navy. This is going to follow up with work on customisation (potentially in Indonesian Yard as Industrial partner).
Fincantieri Signs Contract To Deliver Two PPAs For Indonesia - Naval News
Italian shipbuilder Fincantieri and the Indonesian Ministry of Defence have signed a contract for the supply of two PPA Units for Indonesia
www.navalnews.com
Question remain whether planing with Fincantieri on FREMM will be continue or being replace by PPA overall. Indonesian Navy being told wants PPA on Full Configuration and use this as Frigate.
Thus seems so far 6 Van Speijk/Ahmad Yani class Frigate being replace by 2 Sigma 10514, 2 Arrowhead 140 derivative (Red-White Frigate) and now with 2 PPA. If MinDef agree with additional Frigates after this, then it is for additional force and not replacement.
Prabowo in his presentation before, put 12 as number of Frigate being aim. This potential additional 6 so far being contended (rumours) by Fincantieri (either more PPA or FREMM), Babcock (additional Arrowhead 140 derivative), and Mitsubishi (Mogami base derivative).
So one class of Frigate (Van Speijk) being replace by 3 class each of 2. That's Indonesian planning at it's best. Well at least it is being replace eventough 2 decades late.
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The only reason I can think of for not doing for more Arrowheads is because of production bottlenecks at PT PAL, resulting in long delivery timelines.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
PPA being chosen because Italian agree to allocate two of PPA that's currently in pipeline. The additional work being done by Fincantieri toward those PPA will be more on weapon integration, which potentially have some difference between TNI AL and Marina Militare.
Thus it's actually in my opinion related toward the changes of Choice for Frigate from SIGMA 10514 that supposedly replace all six Van Speijk to Arrowhead 140. Changes that take times, results the replacement for Van Speijk being delayed. Thus PPA being choose as opportunity choices.
Arrowhead 140 derivative progress in PAL (well at least according to PAL) still on schedule. Bit doubt that, I sense some potential delay, but not really much. At same time MinDef realize that PAL capacity means further build up time line on Frigate will not going to meet obsolescence issues that facing remaining Van Speijks. Seems now they decide that getting some Frigate outside Domestic build still necessary.
However that doesn't mean that Domestic build program will be abandoned. On contrary it's already fixiate on domestic politics, that at further build up must use domestication as much as possible.
Put this before, but shown even Fincantieri understand that further order job in Indonesia,need to provide some domestication. For that they are now tied up agreement with Noahtu Shipyard in Batam. Same shipyard that now working on two OPV 90 project. Not sure yet what kind of project that Noahtu and Fincantieri going to work. However with this there's potential next Frigate project can be additional Batch of Babcock Arrowhead tied up with PAL with Fincantieri ones tied up with Noahtu.
At least they (MinDef) understand that capacity for Frigate or other Naval project need to be enlange outside PAL capacity. Thus giving other domestic yard more slices on Naval build up or replacement projects.
Thus it's actually in my opinion related toward the changes of Choice for Frigate from SIGMA 10514 that supposedly replace all six Van Speijk to Arrowhead 140. Changes that take times, results the replacement for Van Speijk being delayed. Thus PPA being choose as opportunity choices.
Arrowhead 140 derivative progress in PAL (well at least according to PAL) still on schedule. Bit doubt that, I sense some potential delay, but not really much. At same time MinDef realize that PAL capacity means further build up time line on Frigate will not going to meet obsolescence issues that facing remaining Van Speijks. Seems now they decide that getting some Frigate outside Domestic build still necessary.
However that doesn't mean that Domestic build program will be abandoned. On contrary it's already fixiate on domestic politics, that at further build up must use domestication as much as possible.
Put this before, but shown even Fincantieri understand that further order job in Indonesia,need to provide some domestication. For that they are now tied up agreement with Noahtu Shipyard in Batam. Same shipyard that now working on two OPV 90 project. Not sure yet what kind of project that Noahtu and Fincantieri going to work. However with this there's potential next Frigate project can be additional Batch of Babcock Arrowhead tied up with PAL with Fincantieri ones tied up with Noahtu.
At least they (MinDef) understand that capacity for Frigate or other Naval project need to be enlange outside PAL capacity. Thus giving other domestic yard more slices on Naval build up or replacement projects.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
It will be indeed great if TNI-AL can get two PPA Full frigates for that price, hopefully with CODAD propulsion. I was afraid that it will be the PPA Light- in FFBNW configuration with only a navigation radar, machine guns and an old recycled manually operated 25/37/40 mm main gun.
I have my doubts that TNI-AL will get eventually 12 new frigates. But if they do, a fleet of 4 SIGMA 10514, 4 Iver Huitfeldts and 4 PPAs will be the most logic plan. A combination of Dutch, Danish, France, Italian and Turkish electronic, sensor and weaponsystems is already complicated enough.
A fleet of 2 SIGMA 10514, 2 Iver Huitfeldts, 2 PPAs, 2 30FFMs, 2 Frégates de Taille Intermédiaire and 2 Type 054A or something will be ridiculous.
I have my doubts that TNI-AL will get eventually 12 new frigates. But if they do, a fleet of 4 SIGMA 10514, 4 Iver Huitfeldts and 4 PPAs will be the most logic plan. A combination of Dutch, Danish, France, Italian and Turkish electronic, sensor and weaponsystems is already complicated enough.
A fleet of 2 SIGMA 10514, 2 Iver Huitfeldts, 2 PPAs, 2 30FFMs, 2 Frégates de Taille Intermédiaire and 2 Type 054A or something will be ridiculous.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
The difference between FREMM and PPA, is how the allocation of credit line. FREMM credit line allocation just like F-15ID has not get approval from MoF. While PPA going to use reallocate credit line from already approved projects.
This means MinDef already has agree on the amount of Credit Line that needed to cover PPA contract. However they need to reallocate from other projects. While FREMM credit line amount needed has not been approved yet, let alone the allocation. In such availability of credit line for PPA from budget wise has bigger availability chances then FREMM.
Can it still be in prolonged limbo as FREMM procurement situation? Yes it can, but it has bigger chances not (at least from budgetary pov). MoF before agreeing on reallocation has to make credit agreement with potential FI that finance it. Still they at least already agree on provide space on that amount to MinDef, unlike FREMM.
This means MinDef already has agree on the amount of Credit Line that needed to cover PPA contract. However they need to reallocate from other projects. While FREMM credit line amount needed has not been approved yet, let alone the allocation. In such availability of credit line for PPA from budget wise has bigger availability chances then FREMM.
Can it still be in prolonged limbo as FREMM procurement situation? Yes it can, but it has bigger chances not (at least from budgetary pov). MoF before agreeing on reallocation has to make credit agreement with potential FI that finance it. Still they at least already agree on provide space on that amount to MinDef, unlike FREMM.
SolarisKenzo
Active Member
The two ship that will be delivered are the P433 (ITS Marcantonio Colonna) and P435 (ITS Ruggiero di Laura).
There was supposed to be already one round of realignment, for the 6 x FREMM. So I am kinda confused when you say they are going for other realignment to find money for the PPA. If the overall budget isn't increasing, there are only so many projects that can be delayed or shifted.
Singapore Airshow 2024: Indonesia proposes delaying AEW&C programme to fund frigates
The Indonesian Ministry of Defense (MoD) has submitted a proposal to the country's Ministry of Finance, requesting to cancel the foreign loan approvals allocated for an...
www.janes.com
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Jane's got a mix up there from what I heard from sources in here, or even some talk from Finance people. The realignment or reallocation is not for FREMM, but for PPA. At least the value of realignment more in line with the value of 2 PPA contract, and not 6 FREMM contract.
That's why that 6 FREMM just like the 24 F-15EX/ID has no allocation yet, at least in this current term. As you say there's only that much budget can be afforded in this term. The only big item left (that has been allocated) that need to be switch (if wants to get FREMM), is budget for Submarine.
Indonesia Moving Closer to 'Scorpene Evolved' Submarine Deal - Naval News
There is a growing momentum between Indonesia and Naval Group towards the potential signing of a contract for two Scorpene Evolved Submarines
www.navalnews.com
However indication so far shown it will get go-ahead for this term. Thus with the reallocation budget seems going to go for 2 PPA, FREMM will increasingly unlikely can be afforded in this term. Honestly with the choice now goes to PPA, I do have increasing doubt, they still want FREMM.
Personally better to stick with Arrowhead 140 and PPA if they are going to get another batch of Frigate. Still with Indonesian planning process, who knows.
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