Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Ananda]

As I and other Indonesian members already put in this thread and other Indonesian thread, politics consideration can outweight Defense planners commonality and logistical consideration. Logics is by nature ussualy not necessarily in line with Political consideration.

Indonesian domestic politics already demand more involvement on domestic industries for defense projects. Just like India with Made In India first, Indonesia also has similar policies on defense. This kind of policies asside building domestic industries, is also attractive ones for domestic vote getters. However even India with larger Industrial base face difficulty on consistency in implementation, let alone Indonesia.

Still this means whoever partner that being deemed can support or involving local partners on productions and industrial co-op, will get plus. This is base on what I gather hold Damen light frigate project after only two build (instead initial six plan), and switch to Babcock which being deemed more attractive partner for domestic industries need. Off course Arrowhead 140 or Iver is clearly more capable platform then Damen 10514, but domestic politics consideration seems more influence on the decision.

So for submarine, similar thing also happening. DSME after batch 1 of 3 Subs 209 program should move to batch 2 of another 3 subs 209, to complete PAL transitions toward full submarine manufacturing. However now NG got upper hand as preferred partner for PAL learning curve on Submarine manufacturing. TKMS base on this KKIP article, seems now change their marketing strategy to involve PAL on productions sharing. Clearly they are countering NG move.

So logics on commonality is important, but not main determining factor. Political choices and off course budget are more determined ones. External Political consideration also matter. US CAATSA and Economic sanctions to Russia, create difficulties for pro Russian factions (and this means Russian sales agents) to pursue more Russian assets procurement. Frenchie become more attractive partner (as I have mentioned before in Indonesian threads), as compromise factor. Frenchie being consider more independent toward US politics then other Euro suppliers.

Thus domestic and external political consideration are jumbled together. This in the end giving defense procurement that less determined by defense planners.

 

[spoz]

Not the best from a logistical or training perspective of course; but is has meant that TNI-AL have become very good at operating diverse material over the years, to a level few others could emulate. I bet it’s frustrating at times, though.

 

[Ananda]

One of Indonesian members @deadlast already put in this thread how even ammo commonality become big problem in TNI-AL. How even 20mm guns have different ammo. This is not just problem with TNI-AL but throughout TNI.

Still there's realisation toward standardized, even in typical Indonesian bureaucrat, it is done in sporadic and sometimes confusing ways. Like guns, there's more understanding in policy they can get different guns, as long as it is can be supported by Pindad produce ammo. This is already happening on small caliber up to 12.5mm. As Pindad ammo production entering on larger caliber, hopefully they're going in the end standardization base on ammo.

War in Ukraine seems jolt understanding in MinDef and TNI on how important standardization in ammo as that's going to be the main factor on supporting war effort. Even if the platform are different, there're effort to similirise the electronics and sensors. There're effort on similirising missiles types, or at least reducing suppliers numbers.

Not the ideal way, but seems it is Indonesian way on compromising between defense planners and political "transactional" tendencies that's still implicits in Indonesian political factions.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

One of Indonesian members @deadlast already put in this thread how even ammo commonality become big problem in TNI-AL. How even 20mm guns have different ammo. This is not just problem with TNI-AL but throughout TNI.

Still there's realisation toward standardized, even in typical Indonesian bureaucrat, it is done in sporadic and sometimes confusing ways. Like guns, there's more understanding in policy they can get different guns, as long as it is can be supported by Pindad produce ammo. This is already happening on small caliber up to 12.5mm. As Pindad ammo production entering on larger caliber, hopefully they're going in the end standardization base on ammo.

War in Ukraine seems jolt understanding in MinDef and TNI on how important standardization in ammo as that's going to be the main factor on supporting war effort. Even if the platform are different, there're effort to similirise the electronics and sensors. There're effort on similirising missiles types, or at least reducing suppliers numbers.

Not the ideal way, but seems it is Indonesian way on compromising between defense planners and political "transactional" tendencies that's still implicits in Indonesian political factions.

That's why i don't understand why the Oerlikon 20×128 mm is chosen for the two new Pulau Fani class minehunters. What's the problem to choose the Yugoimport 20×110 mm, Denel GI-2 20×139 mm, GIAT modèle F2 20×139 mm or Rheinmetall Rh-202 20×139 mm which are all already in use in several classes?

 

[Ananda]

Dislitbangad Uji Coba Prototipe Senapan Sniper Kaliber 20 MM Anti Materiel Hasil Kegiatan Litbanghan Dislitbangad Kerja Sama PT. Pindad

Dislitbangad Uji Coba Prototipe Senapan Sniper Kaliber 20 MM Anti Materiel Hasil Kegiatan Litbanghan Dislitbangad Kerja Sama PT. Pindad - Berita Satuan - TNI

tniad.mil.id

So far, this is just my suspicion base on trend of smaller caliber armament procurement. Seems eventough they (TNI and MinDef) put emphasis on Pindad armaments production, we know they also bought on smaller amount more specialise small armaments, like from HK.

However all seems being assess capable to be use with Pindad ammo. So Pindad already talk in public their preparation for medium range caliber since 2019. Seems base on TNI-AD sites, they begin churning out this mid range caliber.

https://pindad.com/pindad-selenggarakan-seminar-nasional-teknologi-munisi-kaliber-sedang-20-40-mm-pembangunan-kapabilit

So if Pindad facilities is flexible enough to churn out different range of caliber ammo. Then perhaps some 'sales' then confidence enough to keep selling that. We also know continues existance of 'variation interests' of salespeople in Indonesian ministries including MinDef.

Again this is just my suspicion base on what 'relatively' more standardized smaller caliber armaments, base on what Pindad ammo can produce.

Then again it will not guarantee some odd specs come to procurement, perhaps as long as majorities portion already standardized within certain specs. Like I said, not ideal, but just part of Indonesian political compromises between factions/Salespeople/Agents.

 

[ngatimozart]

That's why i don't understand why the Oerlikon 20×128 mm is chosen for the two new Pulau Fani class minehunters. What's the problem to choose the Yugoimport 20×110 mm, Denel GI-2 20×139 mm, GIAT modèle F2 20×139 mm or Rheinmetall Rh-202 20×139 mm which are all already in use in several classes?

Are you expecting logic from pollies?

 

[Ananda]

KSAL berharap pembelian kapal patroli lepas pantai segera terealisasi

Kepala Staf TNI Angkatan Laut Laksamana TNI Muhammad Ali berharap rencana pembelian kapal patroli lepas pantai (OPV) segera terealisasi, terutama untuk jenis ...

www.antaranews.com

This is first time that if I remember TNI-AL chief talk to media confirming they are seriously interest with Italian PPA.

Italian Navy Discussions and Updates

Adding a ramp is probably easier than removing one that has been designed into the ship. Also, I kind of like our latent naval aviation capability.

www.defencetalk.com

I remember put this 4 years ago in Italian Navy Thread. Not realising now Indonesian Navy really put interests on this class. By the language of TNI-AL put, they hope to reclassify PPA from OPV to Frigate by adding capabilities. This also indicating what's being suspected that they are switching their Fincantieri frigate project from FREMM to PPA.

Eventough Italian offer are to get 2 (either #5 and 6 or #6 and 7) of their current production line, there's also some talk Indonesia will want new build to more specified with TNI-AL preferred specs. This is also in line with rumours in here that TNI-AL want to have CODAD or CODADe propulsion similar with their Sigma Light Frigate and Arrowhead 140 derivative Frigate currently in production.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

KSAL berharap pembelian kapal patroli lepas pantai segera terealisasi

Kepala Staf TNI Angkatan Laut Laksamana TNI Muhammad Ali berharap rencana pembelian kapal patroli lepas pantai (OPV) segera terealisasi, terutama untuk jenis ...

www.antaranews.com

This is first time that if I remember TNI-AL chief talk to media confirming they are seriously interest with Italian PPA.

Italian Navy Discussions and Updates

Adding a ramp is probably easier than removing one that has been designed into the ship. Also, I kind of like our latent naval aviation capability.

www.defencetalk.com

I remember put this 4 years ago in Italian Navy Thread. Not realising now Indonesian Navy really put interests on this class. By the language of TNI-AL put, they hope to reclassify PPA from OPV to Frigate by adding capabilities. This also indicating what's being suspected that they are switching their Fincantieri frigate project from FREMM to PPA.

Eventough Italian offer are to get 2 (either #5 and 6 or #6 and 7) of their current production line, there's also some talk Indonesia will want new build to more specified with TNI-AL preferred specs. This is also in line with rumours in here that TNI-AL want to have CODAD or CODADe propulsion similar with their Sigma Light Frigate and Arrowhead 140 derivative Frigate currently in production.

We all now what "seriously interested in" means, in the recent past Indonesia was that too with the Comandanti Class corvettes/OPVs, F122 Bremen Class Lübeck, MV-22B, Su-35, Austrian EF2000s...
We just have to be patient and see if the current administration or the next one will go for two Italian FREMMs, PPAs or anything else.

 

[SiVisPacemParaBellum]

Fincantieri doesn't have its own Sub design, it builds the TKMS Type 212CD for the Italian Navy.

They licence build 212NFS based on 212A.

 

[SiVisPacemParaBellum]

Fincantieri doesn't have its own Sub design, it builds the TKMS Type 212CD for the Italian Navy.

They licence build 212NFS based on 212A.

 

[SiVisPacemParaBellum]

We have license and export rights on the U212

Plus you have to consider the health od the shipbuilder.

Fincantieri wins maintenance contract for German submarines | Defence Today

Fincantieri has announced that it has won a contract from the German Navy to provide maintenance and modernization services for four Type 212A submarines. The agreement, worth about 300 million euros, will be carried out by Fincantieri's subsidiary Fincantieri Marine Systems Deutschland (FMSD)...

www.defencetoday.com

If the Germans give to the Italians the maintenance of their subs for the next 5 years a reason must be there.

On TKMS that in the last decade has been through some troubled waters

Berlin considers stake in Thyssenkrupp marine unit to accelerate spin-off

There is the chance it ends up with Fincantieri

You got the maintenance because GER/IT agreed on this arrangement a long time ago.
And no - you don't have the right to Export 212NFS.
Do I have sources for those claims?
No.

 

[swerve]

... I remember put this 4 years ago in Italian Navy Thread. Not realising now Indonesian Navy really put interests on this class. By the language of TNI-AL put, they hope to reclassify PPA from OPV to Frigate by adding capabilities. ...

If you look at the spec of the "Full" PPA, it looks remarkably like a frigate already, without adding any capabilities.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

If you look at the spec of the "Full" PPA, it looks remarkably like a frigate already, without adding any capabilities.

Whatever is chosen, at least it has to get more stuff on board than our newest 'helicopter carrying guided missile corvette'.

HD HHI to Develop Indigenous Submarine for Export Market - Naval News

South Korea’s HD HHI will develop an indigenous mid-size submarine for the export market.

www.navalnews.com

Lets see if HHI is more capable to disrupt HDW's and DCNS' plans than DSME.

 

[Ananda]

you look at the spec of the "Full" PPA, it looks remarkably like a frigate already, without adding any capabilities.

Yes and that's what attract TNI-AL and Indonesian MinDef with PPA. TNI-AL chief in that article clearly say they want to convert it to Frigate capabilities. This's means either buy full Specs ones currently in production line or new order.

Clearly Gas Turbine factor seems become one of factor to consider. TNI-AL so far seems has trend to avoid Gas Turbine propulsion. They are phasing down their ships that has Gas Turbine, and Fatahila Corvettes has their Gas Turbine change to Diesel during last MLU. They also have Gas Turbines fires some months ago in one of their 80's build South Korean Build Missile Boats. One of reasons current domestic build Missile Boats are all CODAD.

Rumours say that TNI-AL inquires Fincantieri for PPA conversion to CODAD from present CODAG config. So far no procurement since 90's having Gas Turbines propulsion, all CODAD or CODADe. I suspect that will be big consideration if they're going with PPA, whether taking existing Italian line with CODAG or build new one with CODAD. Heard rumours that Fincantieri told them it is considerable redesign for FREMM to become CODAD, but only minimal one if CODAD being implement to PPA. Which is make one of reasons for TNI-AL switch to PPA.

 

[Ananda]

Some old photos from Indonesian Submarine Corps FB pages on Whiskey class. 12 of them in operation, and first photo shown most of them become unoperational in the mid 70's. Only two of them being maintain until 80's. The last one of them KRI Pasopati even operational when the two U209 already operational.

Thus in 80's Indonesia actualy operating 2 209 and 1 Whiskey. Info that I gather by that time, Pasopati already being modified with Air Conditioning and Western Baterries. Seems Pasopati being hold as 'training' submarines. Similar situation that 'rumours' currently TNI-AL surviving original 209 done. Preparing new cadets for Submarines corps.

The second photo shown Main Submarine pen in Surabaya Naval Base, which is also still use presently for all 209 and 209-1400. This pen actually enlarge and rebuild ones from Netherland East Indies submarines pen.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

According to the Tweet below, TNI-AL has put these four MPAs on their list of candidates.
1. Boeing P-8A Poseidon
2. Bombardier/Ericsson GlobalEye 6000
3. Kawasaki P-1
4. ATR-72 MPA

I don't think the ATR72 is an improvement over the CN235/C295, but of course it's all about the available budget. Maybe an even smaller or cheaper aircraft like the Cessna 208B Caravan or DA-42 will be chosen.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1733396320092836311

 

[Ananda]

That guy also shown TNI-AU study results on AEW. I try to get the originals from tni-au.mil.id sites, but seems the sites can't be reach at this moment.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1733411642258657659

Well this is just study results, but quite curious both study now put #1 and #2 basically using same platform and same producers. As MPA, I agree with you that turboprop MPA will not going to give substantial benefits more then current CN-235MPA. I suspect they only put it for study purpose, in short to shown they are already looking what's available in market.

Seems both TNI-AU and TNI-AL basically implied get 737 based aircraft or Bombardier ones. All depends on budget availability. Curious before for AEW they put C295 AEW, but seems they drop it. Perhaps because it is using ELTA and other Israel sensors. Something that's politically not acceptable especially after Gaza problem.

Anyway if we see their study for large transport/tanker before they put KC-46, KC-30 MRTT, and IL-76-90 as part of studies. However A400M that come out.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1733421834148979104

2+4 options is basically being confirm by MinDef sites as target for Heavy Transport and Tankers at this point around. Despite some talk with Airbus for MRTT, officialy they are saying still only A400M. In sense studies will not going to be definite choices. Afterall Defense planners studies is always behind political 'choices'.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

|"2+4 options is basically being confirm by MinDef sites as target for Heavy Transport and Tankers at this point around. Despite some talk with Airbus for MRTT, officialy they are saying still only A400M. In sense studies will not going to be definite choices. Afterall Defense planners studies is always behind political 'choices'"|

Yes that's absolutely true.
Sadly TNI-AU only has a very small amount of CSAR EC725s, and none of them has inflight refueling probes. As far as i know they don't plan to retrofit them with it.
I wonder if the drogue/basket used by the A400M is also suitable for our Sukhois like the single KC-130B.

 

[swerve]

Yes and that's what attract TNI-AL and Indonesian MinDef with PPA. TNI-AL chief in that article clearly say they want to convert it to Frigate capabilities. This's means either buy full Specs ones currently in production line or new order.

Clearly Gas Turbine factor seems become one of factor to consider. TNI-AL so far seems has trend to avoid Gas Turbine propulsion. They are phasing down their ships that has Gas Turbine, and Fatahila Corvettes has their Gas Turbine change to Diesel during last MLU. They also have Gas Turbines fires some months ago in one of their 80's build South Korean Build Missile Boats. One of reasons current domestic build Missile Boats are all CODAD.

Rumours say that TNI-AL inquires Fincantieri for PPA conversion to CODAD from present CODAG config. So far no procurement since 90's having Gas Turbines propulsion, all CODAD or CODADe. I suspect that will be big consideration if they're going with PPA, whether taking existing Italian line with CODAG or build new one with CODAD. Heard rumours that Fincantieri told them it is considerable redesign for FREMM to become CODAD, but only minimal one if CODAD being implement to PPA. Which is make one of reasons for TNI-AL switch to PPA.

Unless the prospect of quick delivery of already building ships from the PPA line is the main reason for buying PPA, a preference for all-diesel propulsion would seem to favour buying more Arrowhead 140. It'd simplify logistics to have all the major units on the same hull.

I don't know what the navy thinks of its Sigmas, but Damen offers a proper frigate-sized Sigma, the 12516 (128 metres, 4600 tons). Standard propulsion is CODLOG, but CODAD is an option. It'd take longer to be delivered, of course, because it'd need more detailed design work, & it could be argued it's higher risk, because none have actually been built.

But nothing wrong with the PPA as far as I know - except the looks. I think it's ugly.

 

[Ananda]

don't know what the navy thinks of its Sigmas, but Damen offers a proper frigate-sized Sigma, the 12516 (128 metres, 4600 tons).

I don't think they are still interest with Sigma, not because the quality of Sigma, but more toward Industrial relationship with Damen. After the 2 Sigma 10514, many in bureaucracy whether SOE ministry or MinDef simply believe Damen is not ideal Industrial partner.

Damen actualy in 2018 already offer proper size Frigate with Omega Frigate. The ones that now become Dutch-Belgium new frigates. However they choose Odense-Babcock. So I just don't see they will revive back to Damen. Either from Business/Industrial and Political side, no indication so far that support that.

As for PPA, whether they will procure present Italian lines or build new ones, project with Fincantieri seems due to realization that Indonesian Shipyards capabilities for proper size Frigate production limited to PAL only at this moment. Thus they need to build in overseas yard if they want to keep the prefered number of Frigate. There's indication/rumours that more Arrowhead 140 derivative will be order for PAL production line.

Other domestic yard outside PAL so far capabilities seems still on OPV/Corvettes size. Thus I don't see outside PAL yard will suddenly has capabilities for full size Frigate production. This means potentially some Frigates will still be procure from overseas yard as this PPA tend to shown.