Indonesia: 'green water navy'
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
It could and it should. That's the logical step to do. That's what previous administration try to do with DSME. Doing step by step learning curve for PAL. They are doing that with Daesun for LPD, they should done that on other projects.
However Indonesian procurement more drive by Politics. Try to satisfied different political interest and getting various international partners, and that's make it not entirely logical. Frigates should be focused on Arrowheads 140. Submarine should be focus on one class, thus maximizing learning curve.
Personally that's what I'm hoping for, then again this presents administration got more 'surprises' move then previous ones. There are not entirely logical also. So, I'm just preparing my self for more Political drama.
However Indonesian procurement more drive by Politics. Try to satisfied different political interest and getting various international partners, and that's make it not entirely logical. Frigates should be focused on Arrowheads 140. Submarine should be focus on one class, thus maximizing learning curve.
Personally that's what I'm hoping for, then again this presents administration got more 'surprises' move then previous ones. There are not entirely logical also. So, I'm just preparing my self for more Political drama.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Im really glad that the procurement of the Type 206 submarines, Project 1174 Nosorog large landing ship, Project 877 submarines, F122 Class fregat Lübeck and Austrian EF2000s didn't become reality...
Imagine a fleet of Hawk Mk.209, T-50, F-16A/B/C/D, Su-27/-30, Mirage 2000, Rafale and EF2000....
Ananda
The Bunker Group
This guys really have 'beef' with Arrowhead 140 derivatives project (Red-White Frigate). From talking of Babcock will not give final design because has not being paid, from Turkiyefication of the Frigate (due to Havelsan getting traction over his project with Thales), Now he is talking this BS again.
If the modules being build, and Babcock as Partner and design owner already give blessing to go ahead, means the design has been set. Do he think Babcock is new players in Frigate projects? Do he believe Babcock want to ruin their reputation, by acknowledge a project with their join name as partner to go ahead without proper preparation?
My god, not understand why some media and defense enthusiasts idiots in Indonesia still think highly of him. He's talking more and more BS on this project. JV project can have problem (like Malaysian Boulstead and NG Maharajalela Corvette project), not because the design has not been set (as some believe). However because Boulstead mismanagement on project budget. So if this project going to have problem, it is more on mismanagement on projects budget, not because the design has not been set (as his BS ranting).
PAL still new on the design, off course Babcock and PAL will move carefully. Doesn't mean they can't speed up the pace latter on when their people (PAL) already more comfortable with the designs and manufacturing process. This is happening everywhere on new projects.
Defense insiders (salesman) like him, that spreading BS in media and behind close door trying to lobby any potential factions to influences defense programs. Trying to talk BS on opponents projects. They are part of lobby machines that create delay on Indonesian procurement.
Just wondering if CNBC Indonesia that still put his BS is not behind some factions that support his sales lobby.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Indonesian Government acquires new UK built Submarine Rescue System in $100m contract - SMP
12 September 2023 – Lancashire, UK – Submarine Manufacturing and Products Ltd (SMP), a leading UK based manufacturer and supplier of diving and subsea rescue equipment, will provide its new Submarine Rescue System (SRS) to the Indonesian Navy. The SRS will be hosted on a mothership designed by...
www.smp-ltd.com
Signing the contract in UK for USD 100mio package with SMP Ltd. Just confirmation on previous MinDef announcement.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
PT Palindo Marine Batam Bangun Kapal Survei Bawah Air Canggih Milik Kemenhan - Metropolis
batampos - Galangan kapal di Batam kembali dipercaya membangun kapal negara. Adalah PT Palindo Marine yang berlokasi di Seilekop, Sagulung dipercaya membangun
metro.batampos.co.id
This survey vessels build in Batam, is also talk going to be mother ship of the DSRV. The talk with Abeking Rasmussen is for design partner for underwater survey design and equipment. Still the design give space to be integrated with other equipment including DSRV.
Indonesian Navy is set to receive SMP SRV-F Mk3 - Naval News
UK-based Submarine Manufacturing and Products Ltd (SMP) has been contracted to supply SRV-F Mk 3 to the Indonesian Navy.
www.navalnews.com
Although it is possible there will be another mother ship going to be build in local shipyard by UK Boulder group design. As part of agreement with SMP. This is line with SMP design that capable to be integrated on different ships.
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Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Perhaps no one at CNBC has any knowledge about defence, so for them the Oracle on Twitter is one of the greatest defence experts ever,...... like those people of GFP.
The survey ship design from Abeking&Rasmussen is indeed another project. Reading the Navalnews article, the one from Houlder will be 92,5 meters long, such a size is really necessary, besides the SMP SRV-F Mk3, the ship will also get some large cranes.PT Palindo Marine Batam Bangun Kapal Survei Bawah Air Canggih Milik Kemenhan - Metropolis
batampos - Galangan kapal di Batam kembali dipercaya membangun kapal negara. Adalah PT Palindo Marine yang berlokasi di Seilekop, Sagulung dipercaya membangun
This survey vessels build in Batam, is also talk going to be mother ship of the DSRV. The talk with Abeking Rasmussen is for design partner for underwater survey design and equipment. Still the design give space to be integrated with other equipment including DSRV.
Indonesian Navy is set to receive SMP SRV-F Mk3 - Naval News
UK-based Submarine Manufacturing and Products Ltd (SMP) has been contracted to supply SRV-F Mk 3 to the Indonesian Navy.
Although it is possible there will be another mother ship going to be build in local shipyard by UK Boulder group design. As part of agreement with SMP. This is line with SMP design that capable to be integrated on different ships.
I will not be surprised to read articles/see videos in the future on internet, claiming "kapal selam canggih buatan anak-anak SMP!" ...like those claims that those CBU imported chinese cars which are rebranded to ESEMKA are designed, developed and constructed by SMK-kids.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Well Indonesian online (and I believe as any other communities) will be full of nationalists self center idiots. Still I do believe there's journo in CNBC Indonesia that still doing basic journalism research. However this days political agenda base and commerciak click bait base strategy is more important, then simple honest journalism ethic.
Related to that, that frenchie salesman in one of recent smeer campaign on Arrowhead 140 derivative project, also talk about 2nd Frigate that he talk will not be guarantee in time also. This is simply because he doesn't see any preparation for 2nd Frigate.
www.navalnews.com
Like I said PAL kell laying being done around 9-10 months after first steel cut. Which is not much different then Babcock keel laying and first steel cut interval. Now look on Babcock keel laying for 2nd Frigate. This take more then a year then First Frigate keel laying. So the first keel laying on PAL's second frigate also at most going to be conducting by early 2025 or end 2024 at most.
Now this is simple benchmark research that any journalist should do. The editorial should check that, rather then just upload bunch of BS that he wrote. Again I'm not saying PAL progress will be guaranteed on time. Track record shown otherwise. However doesn't mean it's definitely going to happen as his BS indicates.
Related to that, that frenchie salesman in one of recent smeer campaign on Arrowhead 140 derivative project, also talk about 2nd Frigate that he talk will not be guarantee in time also. This is simply because he doesn't see any preparation for 2nd Frigate.
Babcock Lays Keel of Second Type 31 Frigate - Naval News
Babcock today laid the keel for HMS Active, the second of the five-ship Inspiration class programme - UK Royal Navy Type 31 frigate.
www.navalnews.com
Like I said PAL kell laying being done around 9-10 months after first steel cut. Which is not much different then Babcock keel laying and first steel cut interval. Now look on Babcock keel laying for 2nd Frigate. This take more then a year then First Frigate keel laying. So the first keel laying on PAL's second frigate also at most going to be conducting by early 2025 or end 2024 at most.
Now this is simple benchmark research that any journalist should do. The editorial should check that, rather then just upload bunch of BS that he wrote. Again I'm not saying PAL progress will be guaranteed on time. Track record shown otherwise. However doesn't mean it's definitely going to happen as his BS indicates.
So TNI-AD wants Thales but MoD wants Havelsan?
Indonesian defence ministry, navy at impasse over ‘Red White' frigate's combat systems
The Indonesian Ministry of Defense (MoD) and the Indonesian Navy have reached an impasse over the ‘Red White' frigate programme's combat systems.
www.janes.com
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Inspektorat Jenderal Kemhan RI
www.kemhan.go.id
The talk on equipment for Red-White Frigates is not reach final yet. Especially for weapons. I put the link from MinDef Inspectorate General when giving assesment on Frigate progress.
Like ussual manufacturing project assesment , they call for contigency/recovery plan. This is general on new project to make in case some misshap or incidents happen. However on the equipment they put three things:
1. For PAL making coordination with MinDef and TNI Technical Bureau for finalising choices on Armaments choices. They emphasize on "proven" choices,
2. Make ammendment on contracts for some equipment that need to be changes,
3. Finalise procurement contracts for Electronics and Sensors equipment.
French Salesman already complaining and b**ching for some time in his tweets, on the "Turkification" of Red-White Frigates and OPV90. However he is also the ones that saying MBDA will not be allowed to sell Aster to this Frigates because it is not French/Italian projects. As saying that since Babcock that being choose instead NG as partner, then Indonesian Mindef has to face consequences of not getting Aster.
This is just part of some salesman/lobbyists battle. Perhaps MinDef want a packages. If Havelsan win then Roketsan got the deal on Missiles. While if Thales won, MinDef demand MBDA packages deal.
TNI-AL on other hand is long term user for Thales and MBDA. So not surprising they prefer that. In the end it will (as usual in Indonesian defense procurement) weight on who can better packages offer. Roketsan and Havelsan already got the deal on TNI-AD Mid-Long Range Trisula area defense missile system. So they do also have precedent to bag TNI-AL area defense system.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
|"Indonesia has signed a memorandum of understanding for the potential purchase of the HISAR surface-to-air missile system from Turkish defense company Roketsan. "|Inspektorat Jenderal Kemhan RI
The talk on equipment for Red-White Frigates is not reach final yet. Especially for weapons. I put the link from MinDef Inspectorate General when giving assesment on Frigate progress.
Like ussual manufacturing project assesment , they call for contigency/recovery plan. This is general on new project to make in case some misshap or incidents happen. However on the equipment they put three things:
1. For PAL making coordination with MinDef and TNI Technical Bureau for finalising choices on Armaments choices. They emphasize on "proven" choices,
2. Make ammendment on contracts for some equipment that need to be changes,
3. Finalise procurement contracts for Electronics and Sensors equipment.
French Salesman already complaining and b**ching for some time in his tweets, on the "Turkification" of Red-White Frigates and OPV90. However he is also the ones that saying MBDA will not be allowed to sell Aster to this Frigates because it is not French/Italian projects. As saying that since Babcock that being choose instead NG as partner, then Indonesian Mindef has to face consequences of not getting Aster.
This is just part of some salesman/lobbyists battle. Perhaps MinDef want a packages. If Havelsan win then Roketsan got the deal on Missiles. While if Thales won, MinDef demand MBDA packages deal.
TNI-AL on other hand is long term user for Thales and MBDA. So not surprising they prefer that. In the end it will (as usual in Indonesian defense procurement) weight on who can better packages offer. Roketsan and Havelsan already got the deal on TNI-AD Mid-Long Range Trisula area defense missile system. So they do also have precedent to bag TNI-AL area defense system.
(Source: Indonesia Signs Up For Roketsan SAM System | Aviation Week Network)
So, with other words, it is not yet certain that TNI-AD will get the Hisar-O and Hisar-U. And also the amounts and value are not announced.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Japanese MinDef and House Rep delegation goes to PAL on discussion for Naval Manufacturing. Interestingly they went to see Arrowhead 140 derivative project. Seems PAL want to show off the infrastructure to build Frigate size vessel.
So either the talk for improving PAL capabilities or potential see the capabilities of PAL to do work sharing on any Japan offer on similar size vessels.
This kind of move shown Japan are getting serious to get into Naval Vessels export market.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
There's a photo from TNI-AL source that already circulate online. Photo on TNI-AL officers inspect INS Kolkata destroyer that visit Jakarta Naval Base. The photo shown TNI-AL officer interest on Kolkata Brahmo VLS cell.
This is been talking by Indonesian enthusiasts as before there's info Red-White Arrowhead 140 derivative Frigate SSM will be on VLS configuration. The expectations it is going to be Brahmo and Kolkata visit with shown Brahmo VLS, increase the speculation.
Rumours now talk the Frigate will be equip with 12-24 Mica VLS for short range defence. 8-16 Brahmo VLS for Anti Surface, and 16-32 Area Defence of either MBDA Aster or ROKETSAN Hisar-Siper. Mica VLS also can be replace by ROKETSAN equivalent. Depends on the bidding results between Thales-MBDA or Havelsan-Roketsan package.
This is been talking by Indonesian enthusiasts as before there's info Red-White Arrowhead 140 derivative Frigate SSM will be on VLS configuration. The expectations it is going to be Brahmo and Kolkata visit with shown Brahmo VLS, increase the speculation.
Rumours now talk the Frigate will be equip with 12-24 Mica VLS for short range defence. 8-16 Brahmo VLS for Anti Surface, and 16-32 Area Defence of either MBDA Aster or ROKETSAN Hisar-Siper. Mica VLS also can be replace by ROKETSAN equivalent. Depends on the bidding results between Thales-MBDA or Havelsan-Roketsan package.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
Navy News - KASAL LAKSAMANA TNI MUHAMMAD ALI MELIHAT DARI DEKAT GALANGAN KAPAL SELAM JERMAN | Navy News - KASAL LAKSAMANA TNI MUHAMMAD ALI MELIHAT DARI DEKAT GALANGAN KAPAL SELAM JERMAN Follow & Mention Twitter kami: @TNIAL Like & Follow... | By TNI Angkatan Laut | Facebook
Navy News - KASAL LAKSAMANA TNI MUHAMMAD ALI MELIHAT DARI DEKAT GALANGAN KAPAL SELAM JERMAN Follow & Mention Twitter kami: @TNIAL Like & Follow...
fb.watch
TNI-AL Video (sorry in Indonesian) from their FB. Put this one as shown TNI-AL Chief visit to TKMS. In there he got presentation on 212 and 214 with their armament suit.
Perhaps this is related to presentation that Prabowo have before (already put it here) on Attack Submarine and Tactical Submarine. Rumours says that asside Attack Submarine going to be larger then Tactical Submarine, also Attack Submarine will be build in PAL collaborate with Partner. While Tactical Submarine potentially being build on overseas yard (either all or some).
This to give two source of Submarine program, and on other hand still give PAL job to utilise their Submarine facilities. Something that seems to find middle way on domestic build commitment and time frame requirements.
# wise as they (MinDef) still put Submarine Force at 12, it is seems still the plan. 7 Tactical Sub, 2 Attack Sub and 3 existing 209 1400.
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
Anything on what they mean by Attack Sub v Tactical Sub, Attack Sub is usually only attributed to SSNs to differentiate them from SSBNs. I was thinking maybe they are going to fit VLS for Cruise Missiles to the Attack Subs for Land attack but not to the Tactical Subs, but that is only a pure guess.Navy News - KASAL LAKSAMANA TNI MUHAMMAD ALI MELIHAT DARI DEKAT GALANGAN KAPAL SELAM JERMAN | Navy News - KASAL LAKSAMANA TNI MUHAMMAD ALI MELIHAT DARI DEKAT GALANGAN KAPAL SELAM JERMAN Follow & Mention Twitter kami: @TNIAL Like & Follow... | By TNI Angkatan Laut | Facebook
Navy News - KASAL LAKSAMANA TNI MUHAMMAD ALI MELIHAT DARI DEKAT GALANGAN KAPAL SELAM JERMAN Follow & Mention Twitter kami: @TNIAL Like & Follow...
TNI-AL Video (sorry in Indonesian) from their FB. Put this one as shown TNI-AL Chief visit to TKMS. In there he got presentation on 212 and 214 with their armament suit.
Perhaps this is related to presentation that Prabowo have before (already put it here) on Attack Submarine and Tactical Submarine. Rumours says that asside Attack Submarine going to be larger then Tactical Submarine, also Attack Submarine will be build in PAL collaborate with Partner. While Tactical Submarine potentially being build on overseas yard (either all or some).
This to give two source of Submarine program, and on other hand still give PAL job to utilise their Submarine facilities. Something that seems to find middle way on domestic build commitment and time frame requirements.
# wise as they (MinDef) still put Submarine Force at 12, it is seems still the plan. 7 Tactical Sub, 2 Attack Sub and 3 existing 209 1400.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Base on rumours, attack sub is for longer range operations while tactical sub more on litoral range operations.
However I do suspect they put in two categories more to give political room for building in overseas yard. They already sell to public that submarine must be build in domestic yard (as part of their campaign to justifies investment on PAL Submarine facilities yard). However when they face realities that building all in Domestic will not going to meet the time line of 12 sub by 2030+, they divide this to justifies building some in overseas yard.
Well that's just my guess, perhaps the rumours on long range and litoral subs are more possible. DSME being rumours offer KSS3 that equip with 6-10VLS to counter NG offer for the attack sub. TKMS seems have momentum more on tactical Sub. Rumours that on tactical sub Fincantieri also offering their version of 212.
Note:
Officially they (MinDef) has not elaborate more on what's Tactical and what's Attack sub means. The slide in Prabowo presentation also shown both of them have similar weapon loads. Thus I believe they don't want to give detail to public yet. This is why I suspect it is just political room for them to seperate program that going to be build in domestic yard and those which either build overseas or mix ones.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
Coastal/Litoral and Midget Sub seems before being both consider. Midget sub from my understanding come to consideration when the Main Submarine it self going to be in the class of DSME 1400 (with 6 in the overall plan). Thus 6 DSME 209 1400 and 6 this Midget sub design (below 50m) with between 4-6 DRASS DG550 – DRASS GROUP Something that being envisage as chocked point defense on ALKI lines.
However seems they enlarge requirements, in which NG come with offer similar to Brazilians Riachuelo. Something that clearly bigger and have longer operating range then DSME 209 1400. Thus seems DSME 209 now being classified as litoral or tactical submarine.
Mind you this is all rumours base on NG Offer of Riachuelo range and further project for submarine with existing dimensions of DSME 209 . Which then being asses that Mindef looking for Long Range Ocean going class (Attack) and Litoral (Tactical). Something that MinDef neither publicly denied nor confirmed.
Note:
This Midget Sub thinking now seems being challange with PAL Underwater Drones (UUV) concept (something they work out with German Diehl Defense)
Thus as ussual in Indonesia procurement, all back toward lobby and package deals.
However seems they enlarge requirements, in which NG come with offer similar to Brazilians Riachuelo. Something that clearly bigger and have longer operating range then DSME 209 1400. Thus seems DSME 209 now being classified as litoral or tactical submarine.
Mind you this is all rumours base on NG Offer of Riachuelo range and further project for submarine with existing dimensions of DSME 209 . Which then being asses that Mindef looking for Long Range Ocean going class (Attack) and Litoral (Tactical). Something that MinDef neither publicly denied nor confirmed.
Note:
This Midget Sub thinking now seems being challange with PAL Underwater Drones (UUV) concept (something they work out with German Diehl Defense)
Thus as ussual in Indonesia procurement, all back toward lobby and package deals.
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Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Looking to that 'confidential image' on the background that they show to the world, it will be a large UUV. We don't have the technology and knowledge yet to develop and design submarines, let alone unmanned autonomously operating ones. The required budget will be huge, and our government isn't even willing to spend enough for less sophisticated programs like N219, N245 and Elang Hitam UAV. And the Klewang Class trimaran program is ended with a single almost unarmed vessel.
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