Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Ananda]

https://tni.mil.id/view-230105-masuk-dan-perkuat-jajaran-koarmada-iii-dua-kapal-cepat-rudal-tiba-di-dermaga-katapop-papua-barat-daya.html

As being mention in this thread before, 2 of the latest KCR (Fast Missile Boats) 60 #5 and 6, being send to equip new 3rd Fleet in Sorong Naval Base Papua. Despite smaller then 2 recently MLU Fatahilla Corvette, those 2 KCR60 have better armaments then Fatahilla Corvettes. The MLU being done to those Fatahilla Corvettes basically turn them more to OPV.

Some speculations in Media talk about why 3rd Fleet being created. TNI officially say 3rd fleet being created to better manage East Indonesia waters patrol coverage. Speculations talk about potential hot spot could be arrise in Melanesian Islands, as China economics moves there. Well who knows the real reasoning for the 3rd fleet creation. For now, personally I go with official version, "to better manage East Indonesia waters".

Asside for the Two Fatahilla Corvettes and 2 KCR 60, around half of Parchim Corvettes also being talk to move to 3rd Fleet.

 

[Ananda]

From Kris FB shown Indonesia Submarine KRI Alugoro and Australian Submarine HMAS Waller, sail together North of Bali. This Passex goes to Indonesian ALKI 2 sea lines. As mention before in this thread, ALKI is archipelago sea lines that Indonesia open for International transit. As being regulate all foreign submarine that transit ALKI has to be surfaced.

ALKI 2 is Sea Lines from Lombok Strait up to Makasar Strait. This photo also I suspect part of Navy efforts to rebuke rumours that those DSME 209 1400 mostly tied up in piers and can't do operational sorties. Rumours that also being put by some Euro salesmans like the Twitter Guy.

 

[Ananda]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1697775044603330853

As I put it before, only put his tweet on two ocassion:
1. New rumours (as he is still defense sales insiders),
2. For clearly ridiculous tweet.

This one come more to #2. He's clearly "bitchy" cause quite numbers Indonesian enthusiasts in multiple forums, even in his you tube channel, ridicule him. He's for sometime already campaigning problematic Babcock-PAL Arrowhead 140 program (seems he's not part of the deal, as Babcock defeat NG proposal that he's seems champion/represents). After the project done keel laying, then his 'reputations' among Indonesian enthusiasts public got hit quite bad.

Now if he's smart and not bitchy, he should tweet that eventough the keel laying already been done, but the completion schedule still can be delayed due to several factors. PAL it self has track record on delayed finishing projects. Moreover this is going to be the largest and most complex Naval ships PAL done so far. Thus potential problem, can still be happening.

However, saying that it is definitely going to be delayed, clearly shown he's quality as 'sore looser'. Betwen First Steel Cut to Keel Laying, PAL so far manage to done it at 9 Months. Thus still acceptable for firsr project, and not much different between Babcock first steel cut and keel laying on the first Type 31.

His ridicules by some in Indonesian defense forums and onlines media, more because he is claiming Babcock has problem with PAL and withdraw from supporting PAL. So far this is not happening, his claim more and more shown his sore looseness to Babcock for 'dare' to outbid his master in NG. Still not understand why some Indonesians media call him defense experts. He is defense salesman, but clearly not defense expert.

 

[Arji]

There's another one of his tweet that claims that Thales still has the upperhand over Havelsan for the Frigate CMS.

 

[Ananda]

Yes, his tweets clearly shown his bias to his sales accounts and campaigns. Just wondering those media that call him defense expert or analyst, also part of their marketing campaign. After all it is public knowledge most of our so call 'free' media is also open for hire.

His complaints on "Turkification" on Arrowhead 140 and PPV 90, just skid the fact, Thales win others projects. So he is complaining on "Havelsanisation" but campaign for "Thalesnisation". So very obvious sales campaign.

It is clear TNI never that big on puting their eggs on one basket/supplier. However with the electronics/sensors basket for current and future TNI-AL either come from Thales, Terma, Havelsan and potentially Leonardo, shown it is Euro NATO basket. So, for TNI standard, it is close to standarisation. Besides it is always depends on which suppliers want to give more projects toward LEN anyways.

He just sour, cause his lobby not getting all through. He already got Rafale and Thales on several projects, he just seems not accepting being beaten in lobby from others sales.

 

[swerve]

Terma's radars are reckoned to be good, from what I've read, but they're all small & rather short-range. IIRC they're often sold alongside longer-range radars from other companies.

 

[Ananda]

So far in TNI-AL contracts, Terma and Hensoldt aim to fill Patrol Boats and Smaller Corvette. Larger vessels ussualy Thales so far still corner most of contract. In fact potentially Havelsan will work with Thales on OPV 90 and potentially Arrowhead 140.

Leonardo potentially got slice, if the deal on FREMM or as I mentioned before on other post PPA, got traction. There's enough rumours that some talk with Fincantieri on switching the potential procurement from FREMM to PPA. One of the reasons that I heard, is Fincantieri assurances that PPA can be package on CODAD, while FREMM need major readjustment for that.

 

[hauritz]

So far in TNI-AL contracts, Terma and Hensoldt aim to fill Patrol Boats and Smaller Corvette. Larger vessels ussualy Thales so far still corner most of contract. In fact potentially Havelsan will work with Thales on OPV 90 and potentially Arrowhead 140.

Leonardo potentially got slice, if the deal on FREMM or as I mentioned before on other post PPA, got traction. There's enough rumours that some talk with Fincantieri on switching the potential procurement from FREMM to PPA. One of the reasons that I heard, is Fincantieri assurances that PPA can be package on CODAD, while FREMM need major readjustment for that.

Also it seems it could be some tacit acknowledgment that you don’t need FREMM and the Arrowhead 140. Depending on how work on the Arrowhead progresses I would be tempted to just build more of those platforms.

 

[Ananda]

This is the screen shoot that I make from one of Prabowo's presentation couple months ago, in Indonesian Police leadership training. I have put it before either in this thread or TNI-AU thread.

He put the # 12 for this Red-White Frigate. Although with the rumours talk on switch FREMM to PPA, this could also includes that. Still this shown enough decision planning being made for increasing options for this Arrowhead 140 derivative number. Whether this is more on Odense/Babcock design Frigate base or Fincatieri Frigate base ones, or being split equally on both, that's remain to be seen.

Interestingly they put Bofors 57mm as main gun, while the drawing on PAL Red-White frigate shown OTO 76mm gun. Again it is shown Bofors and Leonardo/OTO still bidding for that.

 

[Meriv90]

Rumors about PPA reached this side of the ocean.

2 Ppa di Fincantieri destinati alla Marina saranno venduti in Asia? Rumors - Startmag

I Ppa sono costruiti da Fincantieri, a similitudine delle FREMM, presso i Cantieri Navali di Riva Trigoso e di Muggiano.

www.startmag.it

 

[Ananda]

This is already a week old. This is from PAL FB site shown PAL working with Local crane company install new crane in their dockyard. If we see the picture, the new crane is 600TPH thus double older crane (in the background) of 300TPH.

Seems it is related with increasing capacity to handle larger modules from bigger Frigates.

 

[Ananda]

Kementerian Pertahanan Republik Indonesia

www.kemhan.go.id

Indonesian MinDef official site, just put announcement today for procurement of SRV-F Mk3 from SMP Ltd of UK. This is the latest model of SRV from SMP that capable to handle up to 50 person in one haul. Bigger capacity from previous model of 20-30 person. This enables to take whole crew of most SSK (like Indonesian 209) in one attempt.



The contract sign in 1st September with SMP Ltd local rep/agent. My understanding (from previous information), the contract will have SMP provide SRV, Decom Chamber, and whole supporting system on container packages. While Mothership will be made in Indonesia by local yard.

Submarine Rescue Systems, Design & Manufacture | SMP Ltd

SMP's bespoke submarine rescue systems ensure a lifeline is available for submarines in dire need. Learn more about these solutions on our website.

www.smp-ltd.com

This is already in talk for several years, and honestly it take one Submarine fatal accident losses, to make this climb up the priorities ladder.

 

[Ananda]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1700843151173489064

Sunday night, they (MinDef) choose to give some 'clues'. Saying this DSRV is build compatible for Nagapasa class (which is Indonesian term for DSME 209 1400), and 214. This will create commotion with Indonesian defense enthusiasts communities and media. 214 ? wait they say it is Scorpene? They already sign MOU for Scorpene with NG .

Can't wait to see the reaction. Particular Frenchie Salesman will go vivid and claiming Hoax news again, from MinDef team . Just another drama in Indonesian procurement politics.

Anyway, MinDef official channel also upload video which seems presentation from SMP Ltd on SRV-F Mk3. Pervious model which they build for Vietnam able to hold 18+2 Crew, and reported fit to load in C-130.

SRV-F hold 50+3 crew, thus considerable larger. In this video, SMP shown it is transportable with A400M. The video shown the overall system. Making announcement im various online media, from wrbsite, X(Tweet) and Video in YouTube, shown MinDef Information Center is serious telling the public, this is already effective contract.

 

[Meriv90]

But arent also Korean subs 214?

and compatibility with the 214 could mean (im no expert also with the 212) bringing back this post

Fincantieri Targetkan Indonesia Memesan Kapal Selam Type 212NFS

27 Agustus 2023 Nevio Parodi memberikan comment dalam unggahan Fincantieri (image : linked in) Comment Nevio Parodi atas unggahan Fincantie...

defense-studies.blogspot.com

 

[Ananda]

So far the talk and rumours of whose offering Submarine Partnership with PAL:

1. DSME with 2nd batch of DSME 1400,
2. NG with Scorpene,
3. Golcuk Shipyard 214TN and rumours this is with support from TKMS.
4. Fincantieri with 212NFS.

PAL so far only sign MOU agreement with NG for studies on development of Scorpene in their submarine facility in Surabaya. Thus why the talk is put NG has lead to bag the contract. However now come this tweet in MinDef official X.

Off course no official contract talk yet (unlike this SRV-F Mk3). However with election coming and with current defense minister is one of candidate, there's increasingly effort to shore up his achievement.

There's also talk that there will be two class of Submarine (as budget being prepared for that). One call Tactical Submarine, the other call Attack Submarine. Rumours then say the Attack Submarine will be build as whole in PAL, and the Tactical ones will be build by overseas yard or joint modules with PAL. Attack Submarine will be bigger and more Ocean Going, while Tactical ones will be more litoral. This is also indicates the tactical ones will costs less then the attack ones.

So as always in Indonesian procurement defense drama, anything can happen until the effective contract sign and manufacturing work really progesing.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

In my opinion it is highly unlikely that Indonesia will get the Type 212. The Type 214 was specially developed for the export market, while the Type 212 was kept only for Germany and Italy because it contains special materials and sensitive components. Only recently Norway is allowed to jointly order some Type 212s with Germany, because it is a Western/European/NATO country.

Looking to Indonesia's limited defence budget it is also unlikely that Indonesia will get two different kinds of new submarines.

Multiple times Indonesian delegations visited France for negotiations and only with France/DCNS LoIs and MoUs are signed. Something similar didn't happen in Germany, South-Korea or Turkiye.

 

[Ananda]

The context of Attack and Tactical Submarine is officially exist in MinDef plan as this slides from Prabowo's presentation. However this is part of long term plan. Something that need to be follow up by next administration. For that it's becoming big 'if' plan.

It is expected that NG's Scorpene will bag the deal for next batch of Submarine. However last night mention of Type 214 in MinDef X tweet, as usual raise question on final decision for next batch of Submarine.

Indonesia's limited defence budget it is also unlikely that Indonesia will get two different kinds of new submarines.

The rumours is one type of submarine will be build by PAL, while the other build by overseas yard. TNI-AL already set to operate two types of Submarine with Nagapasa Class and this other type in next batch. Question is whether it will be three types (as rumours circulating). That one that really stretch the logistics folly.

However remember this is Indonesian procurement. Remember on the plan buying interim submarine types. Buying and manufacturing few types of limited quantities is not something that unheard off (no matter rediculous and folly it is).

 

[swerve]

"Buying and manufacturing few types of limited quantities is not something that unheard off" - Not the only country to make that mistake.

 

[Meriv90]

The other logistical nightmare country that comes to my mind is Egypt but in their case i totally understand them.

They rely from external factors 100%

Most of their food is imported. Etiopia can close the Nile.

They aren't buying equipment they are buying political support because they can be badly affected by foreign diplomacy, an embargo would be the end of the country.

 

[Ananda]

Not the only country to make that mistake.

Relate to plan of Attack and Tactical submarine, rumours indicate this is due to the fact that Indonesian PAL will not going to be able to produce the amount of Submarine being targeted. Thus combination of build locally with partner in PAL, and build overseas with PAL involvement, seems getting some traction.

This seems so far indicating 3 types of Submarine from 3 'partners' will be operating in TNI-AL inventory in future. Well off course if the plan then has not change again.