China - Geostrategic & Geopolitical.

Feanor

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It is troubling because it is another infringement on the SAR status of Hong Kong. They are supposed to be self-governing without mainland influence - a notion that keeps becoming more distant as the PRC seeks to integrate Hong Kong and wipe out the decades of western influence. And also making sure they stop mentioning Tiananmen Square and 1989.
Are we realistically hoping that China will never integrate Hong Kong (not even attempt it)? Or are we hoping China itself will change in the direction of Hong Kong? Neither one seems all that likely, at least without some major new factor coming in to play. Ultimately either Hong Kong is or isn't China. And if it is, we will see it becoming more like the PRC as time goes by. In my opinion starting with introducing elements of the pioneers organization is relatively mild way of doing it. Criminalizing political dissent and going after opposition political activists is far worse, and far more problematic.
 

Bob53

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Currently Mongolia is the top coke coal exporter to China. It is unlikely China will unban coal import from Australia due to Australia's hostile action against China in South China Sea.

This is possibly the dumbest comment I have heard on this forum. And there have been plenty. Australia’s hostile action is what exactly what? Sail ships in international waters Around reefs that were re claimed for “non military“ use?

Compared to what Chinas have done and said and lied about over the past 10 years directly against Australia’s and many other countries own interests with debt trap diplomacy. Their idiotic wolf warrior way of dealing with anything they don’t get their way with screams childish and threatening insults when anyone disagrees with them.

Australia isn’t exactly with out friends or tools to fight against Chinas attempt at trade bullying.
 

CheeZe

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Are we realistically hoping that China will never integrate Hong Kong (not even attempt it)? Or are we hoping China itself will change in the direction of Hong Kong? Neither one seems all that likely, at least without some major new factor coming in to play. Ultimately either Hong Kong is or isn't China. And if it is, we will see it becoming more like the PRC as time goes by. In my opinion starting with introducing elements of the pioneers organization is relatively mild way of doing it. Criminalizing political dissent and going after opposition political activists is far worse, and far more problematic.
I never said anything about realistic or idealistic. The true problem, to my view, in security or geopolitical terms is that China made an agreement with the UK and was accepted in good faith. Now it is very clearly ignoring the terms agreed upon. I have always questioned whether democracy is the best solution for EVERY country but Hong Kong was supposed to be operating under a separate system and integrated as part of a two-way process. That was the agreement and what was desired by the population. If a population wants a democratic government, thats what they should have. If they want to install a strongman to lead them, that's also their prerogative. The current process most definitely isn't a two-way conversation because it is ignoring a majority of HK residents' desires. You may not see it as a problem while I do. That is a subjective matter because it seems to me that a government, no matter its form, should be heeding the wishes of its people rather than ignoring them. All of its people, not simply selected portions of them.

Hong Kong is doomed to become PRC-ized. Re-education camps and secret spiriting away of political dissidents will become a more common thing. The older generations will die out while the younger ones become indoctrinated with PRC propaganda. That's the likely outcome. Hong Kong isn't as relevant economically as it was in the 90s so the world will not care as much.

EDIT: As I also mentioned rather tongue-in-cheek, they're also cracking down on freedom to dissent and citizens' ability to spread information. I don't see that as a positive mark for any society. Do you?
 
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ngatimozart

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I would hope that no one on this forum would quote The Global Times propaganda sheet as an authoritative source of information, you would be better off with Mad Magazine
It has been tried. The source didn't last long.
 

Feanor

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I never said anything about realistic or idealistic. The true problem, to my view, in security or geopolitical terms is that China made an agreement with the UK and was accepted in good faith. Now it is very clearly ignoring the terms agreed upon. I have always questioned whether democracy is the best solution for EVERY country but Hong Kong was supposed to be operating under a separate system and integrated as part of a two-way process. That was the agreement and what was desired by the population. If a population wants a democratic government, thats what they should have. If they want to install a strongman to lead them, that's also their prerogative.
By definition an undemocratic system is one that has the potential to ignore the wishes of the population. Saying that they only get a strong man if they want one is to still look at this through a lens of democratic principles. China is not a democracy, and there is no sign that it's going to become one unless something fairly drastic happens. If anything it's headed in the opposite direction. Rising prosperity and a strong middle class tend to push towards democracy and it's not clear why this hasn't happened in China. Perhaps that rule isn't as solid as I would have thought. Perhaps the middle class is still too small compared to the total population. China is still huge, and large portions of it remain relatively poor and backward. If China is backing out of an agreement with the UK, then diplomatic channels on the part of the UK are the appropriate venue to address the problem. I don't see what this has to do with my comment on children's political education in Hong Kong or the PRC.

The current process most definitely isn't a two-way conversation because it is ignoring a majority of HK residents' desires. You may not see it as a problem while I do. That is a subjective matter because it seems to me that a government, no matter its form, should be heeding the wishes of its people rather than ignoring them. All of its people, not simply selected portions of them.
Again you're arguing in favor of democracy, just substantive rather then procedural. I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of a political argument about the nature of democracy in this thread (if you want to pursue that line of inquiry feel free to send me a PM and I'm happy to have that discussion, it's just not appropriate or particularly relevant here).

Hong Kong is doomed to become PRC-ized. Re-education camps and secret spiriting away of political dissidents will become a more common thing. The older generations will die out while the younger ones become indoctrinated with PRC propaganda. That's the likely outcome. Hong Kong isn't as relevant economically as it was in the 90s so the world will not care as much.
Ok, so once again, what's the big issue you see with their children's political education? I see a much bigger issue in the way they've handled many other aspects of the recent political crisis. Again, children's education is relatively mild by comparison. At the end of the day the agreement with the UK regarding the future of Hong Kong has a time limit on it as well (correct me if I'm wrong, but ~50 years?). And the population of Hong Kong is going to live in a PRC society, not a British Commonwealth society.

I'm also far from sold, by the way, that they will be successful in indoctrinating their youth. Their youth political education may turn into a performative exercise of conformity that does the exact opposite, unless it's very well designed and can tap into something the children and youth of Hong Kong care about.

EDIT: As I also mentioned rather tongue-in-cheek, they're also cracking down on freedom to dissent and citizens' ability to spread information. I don't see that as a positive mark for any society. Do you?
No I do not.
 

ngatimozart

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You are both missing the point about democracy in the PRC.

The reforms that Deng Xaio Peng introduced in the 1980s were strictly economic. They were never political and there was never any intention for political reform. The CCP has never ever tolerated any opposition, especially political opposition or competition, so it stamps out any suggestions of such quickly and ruthlessly.

The second point to remember, is that in its whole history, mainland China has never experienced democracy. The only majority Chinese state that has experienced democracy is Taiwan and therein lies the reason why the CCP is so determined about eliminating and assimilating Taiwan. It doesn't want an example of a fully functioning Chinese democracy on its doorstep.
 

Musashi_kenshin

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The reforms that Deng Xaio Peng introduced in the 1980s were strictly economic. They were never political and there was never any intention for political reform. The CCP has never ever tolerated any opposition, especially political opposition or competition, so it stamps out any suggestions of such quickly and ruthlessly.
I think it's worth clarifying that there was a brief window of political opening up under Hu Yaobang and Zhao Ziyang where there were more personal and media freedoms. Zhao in particular wanted eventual intra-party democracy such that the NPC really picked the top leaders, with regional/local assemblies having the similar ability to make real choices over who went to the NPC. It was after his illegal arrest and home detention that he came to the view that multi-party democracy was necessary for China, but beforehand he was still in favour of political reform. Had the 1989 protests not occured or they had disbanded without Zhao being illegally remove from power, there was the potential for political reform along the lines Zhao wanted.

The second point to remember, is that in its whole history, mainland China has never experienced democracy.
Again, that's not quite true. China had multi-party national elections in 1912, albeit without universal suffrage (and to be fair many countries around the world including the UK didn't have universal suffrage in the 1910s). The assembly was eventually dissolved but China still experienced democracy through the election itself.
 

ngatimozart

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I think it's worth clarifying that there was a brief window of political opening up under Hu Yaobang and Zhao Ziyang where there were more personal and media freedoms. Zhao in particular wanted eventual intra-party democracy such that the NPC really picked the top leaders, with regional/local assemblies having the similar ability to make real choices over who went to the NPC. It was after his illegal arrest and home detention that he came to the view that multi-party democracy was necessary for China, but beforehand he was still in favour of political reform. Had the 1989 protests not occured or they had disbanded without Zhao being illegally remove from power, there was the potential for political reform along the lines Zhao wanted.

Again, that's not quite true. China had multi-party national elections in 1912, albeit without universal suffrage (and to be fair many countries around the world including the UK didn't have universal suffrage in the 1910s). The assembly was eventually dissolved but China still experienced democracy through the election itself.
I would disagree on both counts. 1912 was just before the start of the warlord era and even though Sun Yat Sen did win an election, it wasn't fair as in a democratic sense and he didn't have control of the whole of China. I am writing this from memory because I did a Chinese history and culture course in 1989 at Uni well before the PRC managed to infiltrate western universities. The lecturer was a professor who was fluent in Mandarin and now long since dead. Yes I am arguing semantics, but that was how it was explained to me by a now dead expert on the matter.

BTW NZ had universal suffrage from 1892, just to gloat. Our women folk nagged their menfolk and withheld favours etc., until they won the day. One of them was Lord Rutherford's mother in law. The same women were also very strong in the temperance movement so I think the menfolk saw universal sufferage as the lessor of two evils. It was better than no booze and I can understand the logic in that line of reasoning.
 

Musashi_kenshin

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I would disagree on both counts. 1912 was just before the start of the warlord era and even though Sun Yat Sen did win an election, it wasn't fair as in a democratic sense and he didn't have control of the whole of China.
It was China's first attempt at a democratic election so I don't think we can be too harsh on SYS. However, it's an academic point only.

Also I maintain that the 1980s was seeing a trajectory towards better rights in China, but we may have to agree to disagree.

BTW NZ had universal suffrage from 1892, just to gloat.
I know, you've mentioned it before. ;) However, across Europe and the USA it wasn't the case.
 

Sandhi Yudha

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China’s 14th Five-Year Plan (2021–25) will be pivotal in its efforts to develop the advanced technologies it needs to become a world-domina.... i mean world-class military.

 

weaponwh

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The only majority Chinese state that has experienced democracy is Taiwan and therein lies the reason why the CCP is so determined about eliminating and assimilating Taiwan. It doesn't want an example of a fully functioning Chinese democracy on its doorstep.
i dont think its about democracy etc, taiwan didn't have full democracy till 96. there are plenty democratic country in the region, and millions chinese travel oversea to these countries. Since 49, it has told its citizen that ROC is part of china, its still in the stage of civil war. so failure to absorb ROC will severally damage its credibility in the eyes of domestic audience , something CCP wont tolerate.
 

SolarWind

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Regardless of motive and practicality, this intolerance of Taiwan and appetite for Russian territory suggest expansionist sentiments. Any state that nurtures expansionism in its population can become a big problem as time goes on.
 

ngatimozart

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Regardless of motive and practicality, this intolerance of Taiwan and appetite for Russian territory suggest expansionist sentiments. Any state that nurtures expansionism in its population can become a big problem as time goes on.
The PRC hasn't overtly expressed any appetite for Russian territory in recent times. They have common grounds with Russia on many issues at the moment and they certainly don't want to open a third front. They already have two and even they would be pushed to successfully prosecute a two front war if hostilities broke out. The Russians have already beaten two invaders within the last 210 years, Napoleon in 1812 and Hitler 1941 - 45.

The next point to remember is that the last time the PLAGF fought a war, the Vietnamese gave them a real beating. The PLA has never fought a cyber info war where its had to link multiple platforms across the three different domains. The PLAN has never fought a war at sea. These are all weaknesses because despite having a plethora of modern platforms, the PLA has no experience in modern warfare, so its sailors, soldiers, airmen, and leadership will be stepping into a complete unknown with no previous combat experience to inform them. That is a huge psychological disadvantage.
 

OPSSG

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Post 1 of 2: Let the facts speak

Here is wishing all a Happy and Prosperous Chinese New Year, to all DT members, who celebrate this occasion.

On this note:

1. While it may be accurate to stay that a strained Sino- <insert party> Relationship is the New Normal (for America, Australia, Japan, India, France, Indonesia, Vietnam and a host of other countries within the Indo-Pacific), please do not use this thread for only China bashing — instead try to see the shifting military balance in favour of China for what it is, in relation to:
(a) disputes in the South China Sea; or​
(b) disputes in North East Asia,​

and I would appreciate the use of facts to illuminate the discussion (on why an Asia Pacific NATO will not work). SEATO never worked; and therefore an Asian NATO will also not work.

2. For Japan—ASEAN, US—ASEAN or Sino-ASEAN relations to prosper, the Japanese, the Americans and the Chinese must get along with the Indonesians, as the leader of ASEAN. The great powers need to understand Indonesia as a non-aligned country. Indonesia's desire to maintain a neutralist stance is best exemplified in the official MFA remarks to press on the Reuters' P-8A report:

(a) both PRC and US are valued partners to Jakarta; and​

(b) on the Reuters report, no comment on anonymous info.​

3. Description and classification is the start of analysis that may lead to insight on regional security dynamics. This classification, if accurate, can be helpful. Continued posting of China bashing posts without reading prior descriptive posts in this thread (and the relevant links provided in related threads) lowers the quality of the geo-political discussion; and IMHO makes the thread boring. Please be kind to others like me, who bother to explain, provide links and share ideas.

4. Instead try to be more dispassionate about any China analysis. Being objective about China’s actions and being factual help those reading form an opinion based on an understanding of the geo-political nuances and choices that are realistically viable — IMO, without military capability, a country can easily become a client state of China with less scope for freedom of action — this scope for freedom of action may include:
  • active resistance (eg. Japan & India) or vocalisation of resistance (eg. Australia);
  • great power balancing (eg. Korea, Indonesia & Singapore) — Indonesia is repeatedly challenging Beijing’s claims and pursuing a strategy of “persistent objection,” as part of its great power balancing strategy. Under UNCLOS 1982, Indonesia does not have overlapping claims with China, so it is not necessary to hold any dialogue on maritime boundary delimitation with China. Going forward, Indonesia will say this over and over again to China as part of its great power balancing strategy;
  • great power balancing does not mean equal treatment for both as Singapore has consistently demonstrated — Singapore gives port access to both the USN and PLA(N) — but the treatment is not intended to be equal — as USN and RSN ties are much closer;
  • accommodation (via hedging like Brunei, or Finlandization like the Philippines) or even giving-in as a client state (eg. Cambodia).
5. The real art of public policy is not treating security and prosperity as strict alternatives but finding ways that get the most for both. PLA’s June 2020 hostile action to gain some inconsequential land along the LAC with India has resulted China destroying the trust created by prior border agreements and creating another enemy, when they could have kept India in the neutral camp.

(a) Many in the Indo-Pacific are taking a multi-track approach that includes great power balancing or hedging, as part of the responses with the rise of China. With Biden, there is strong incentive for Japan, Indonesia and Australia, as G20 members, to grow closer bilateral defence and economic ties.
(b) On the diplomatic front, the 6 Dec 2019 joint statement from the Australia–Indonesia foreign and defense ministers’ meeting expressed “serious concerns” about developments in the South China Sea. The rare united statement is a starting point for more discussions on how both countries could work together on strengthening sovereignty.

(c) In Southeast Asia, there is no “one-size-fits-all” narrative regarding China. While many countries are increasing ties with China to hedge against declining US influence, the survey also underscored how power dynamics in Southeast Asia are about much more than just the US and China. Japan and India, are also viewed as major players, with Indonesia holding significant influence in its own right.

(d) China’s unnecessary turn to hostility with its neutral neighbours has increased hedging behaviour in Asia. This has resulted in the increased importance placed on the trilateral naval exercise, SITMEX, involving India, Singapore and Thailand in Nov 2020. The Indian Navy was represented by an ASW corvette, INS Kamorta, and a guided Missile corvette, INS Karmuk. Singapore was represented by RSS Intrepid, and RSS Endeavour, and Thailand was represented by HTMS Kraburi. In the prior SITMEX held in Sep 2019 the vessels involved included HTMS Kraburi and RSS Tenacious, from Thailand and Singapore, respectively. The Indian Navy was represented by INS Ranvir, INS Kora, and INS Sukanya along with a P8I MPA. For context, I note that the Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi, during his keynote address at Shangri-La Dialogue in June 2018, announced the conduct of a trilateral naval exercise between India, Singapore, and Thailand.​
 
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OPSSG

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Post 2 of 2: Let the facts speak

6. While the US and Japan seek to address the China challenge, Japan has also sought to distance itself from several of Trump’s China policies. While Trump was in office, for example, then PM Abe sought to improve Japan-China relations, easing some of the historic tension between the two countries.

(a) At a Sino-Japan bilateral level the two countries began reengaging in high-level dialogue and created a military hotline to prevent escalation in the East China Sea. Chinese President Xi Jinping was even scheduled for a state visit to Japan until the trip was postponed due to the pandemic.​
(b) Although reduced tension between Japan and China is a positive development, it is worth noting that Trump’s systematic weakening of the US—Japan alliance and American leadership in Asia has pushed even Japan—which has long advocated a tougher line against Beijing—to start hedging when it comes to China.​
(c) The Trump administration also treated most ASEAN member states as pawns in a game against China and focused on narrow interests such as trade deficits rather than shared challenges. Meanwhile, Japan has continued improving its relationships with ASEAN countries. According to a recent poll, 84 % of ASEAN respondents viewed Japan as a reliable partner. In some ASEAN countries such as Indonesia, the US only had a 42 % favorability rating. Indonesia was one of the first countries that the newly elected Prime Minister Suga visited, and the two countries agreed to work together on a variety of security, economic, and military issues.​

7. During calls with counterparts in Vietnam and the Philippines, new US Secretary of State Antony Blinken made clear the US was not backing off its rejection of excessive Chinese claims of maritime rights and that the US was committed to maintaining a rules-based order in the South China Sea.
(a) Blinken said the US rejected China’s maritime claims in the South China Sea “to the extent they exceed the maritime zones that China is permitted to claim under international law as reflected in the 1982 Law of the Sea Convention,” according to a statement from State spokesman Ned Price. It also made clear the U.S. would defend against attacks on Philippines military or government assets.​
(b) “Secretary Blinken stressed the importance of the Mutual Defense Treaty for the security of both nations, and its clear application to armed attacks against the Philippine armed forces, public vessels, or aircraft in the Pacific, which includes the South China Sea,” in a State Department statement reads.​

8. China is rapidly replacing the US as the top source of investment and final demand for Asian exports, thus becoming the economic reference point and as of 2020, Southeast Asia, rather than the US or Europe, is China's larger trading partner; in the battle for influence in ASEAN, China has won.

9. I will be interested in seeing the level and size of China’s delegation at the upcoming Shangri-La Dialogue (to be held on 4–6 June 2021), for a clue on the Chinese response to a Biden administration. I speculate that US Secretary of Defense, Lloyd Austin III will not be presenting an Obama Pivot 2.0, as that has been discredited under Trump.

10. Australia, and China and the US, all engage in coercive diplomacy, at times. And at various times, a member state of ASEAN, like the Philippines, Indonesia or Myanmar are subject to their efforts. Being subject to coercive diplomacy sucks but it is a fact of life for many third world nations. In the real world, a weak state gets to maneuver from a weak position into another weaker position.

(a) The weaker a state is, the more likely continued escalation becomes the choosing of its enemies — as India discovered in its border dispute with China that has been resolved in China’s favour. Fearing conflict with China, we see the rise of the China choice block within ASEAN. This has occurred with Philippine President Duterte being prominent in having shifted and aligned themselves with Cambodia, Laos, and Myanmar as 4 of the weakest ASEAN states that are especially beholden to China. See this 2013 thread on Weak state diplomacy for details.​

(b) As Bilahari Kausikan said: "We are an inter-state and not supra-national organisation. No member is required to give up its sovereign right to define its national interests as it chooses. Cambodia's right to make its own political choices was never at issue. What was at issue was whether Cambodia had in any degree taken the regional interest into account when making that political choice."​

(c) Diplomacy is a tool of state power. Coercive diplomacy is but a sub-set of a tool of state power - where a government can take a multi-track approach to a particular problem. Led by US Secretary of Defense, Lloyd Austin III, American diplomatic efforts at giving more choices to other states will once again be display at the Shangri-La Dialogue (to be held on 4–6 June 2021). Many members of ASEAN are more accurately described as client states of China, while some are engaged in active hedging. Within these range of responses is the policy space for decisions by regional leaders to make, with regard to the rise of China.​

(d) Deterrence is a function of hard power and diplomacy is not a good substitute for hard power, as power defines the starting position of negotiations between countries — which is why India has the option to bomb Pakistan (over border issues) but not China. To Indian credit, they are engaging in active resistance and they can do so due to the Indian Army’s capabilities, to enable disengagement without firing a shot.​
 
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Sandhi Yudha

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Some years ago the Rijksuniversiteit Groningen (RUG) in the Netherlands planned to open a dependance/branch in Yuntai, china.

Officially it was for prestige and to let RUG "grow internationally", but it was also to give chinese students the chance to get Dutch education and to give them even a Dutch diploma/certificate.

Not everyone was happy about it, because the RUG already had problems to get enough lecturers for the regular lessons in Groningen. Besides that to give china all that Dutch knowledge and expertise of economy, planology and agriculture is not such a good idea. And although the biggest part of the costs was paid by the chinese government, it was later revealed that RUG used Dutch subsidy/funds for this project.

People also were worried about human rights abuse and there were no guarantees that students would not be indoctrinated by forced colleges about marxism for example.
And now lecturers, students and politician start to worry about something else: the influence of the communist chinese government in the universities of the Netherlands. Specially chinese students or Dutch students with chinese roots are worried about other chinese students who are member of Association of Chinese Scholars and Students in the Netherlands (ACSSNL). Chinese students are actually forced to become member of ACSSNL, spy on other students and betray them to the chinese government. Not becoming a member of ACSSNL will cause problems later back home. One student could not get a job for a long time for example, because of this.



So many students do not dare to follow some colleges, about recent chinese history for example, because they can not answer questions from the lecturer, afraid to get later problems back in china.
And now the people of RUG and politicians are worried about the fact that one of the lecturers of the RUG (coincidence?) has a contract with the Confucius Institute, and in his contract it is forbidden to "violate chinese laws and to damage the image of the People's Republic of China".

So china does not only send students and spies to Western countries to collect information, knowledge and expertise, but also to increase chinese control and influence abroad.
 
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ngatimozart

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Some years ago the Rijksuniversiteit Groningen (RUG) in the Netherlands planned to open a dependance/branch in Yuntai, china.

Officially it was for prestige and to let RUG "grow internationally", but it was also to give chinese students the chance to get Dutch education and to give them even a Dutch diploma/certificate.

Not everyone was happy about it, because the RUG already had problems to get enough lecturers for the regular lessons in Groningen. Besides that to give china all that Dutch knowledge and expertise of economy, planology and agriculture is not such a good idea. And although the biggest part of the costs was paid by the chinese government, it was later revealed that RUG used Dutch subsidy/funds for this project.

People also were worried about human rights abuse and there were no guarantees that students would not be indoctrinated by forced colleges about marxism for example.
And now lecturers, students and politician start to worry about something else: the influence of the communist chinese government in the universities of the Netherlands. Specially chinese students of Dutch students with chinese roots are worried about other chinese students who are member of Association of Chinese Scholars and Students in the Netherlands (ACSSNL). Chinese students are actually forced to become member of ACSSNL, spy on other students and betray them to the chinese government. Not becoming a member of ACSSNL will cause problems later back home. One student could not get a job for a long time for example, because of this.



So many students do not dare to follow some colleges, about recent chinese history for example, because they can not answer questions from the lecturer, afraid to get later problems back in china.
And now the people of RUG and politicians are worried about the fact that one of the lecturers of the RUG (coincidence?) has a contract with the Confucius Institute, and in his contract it is forbidden to "violate chinese laws and to damage the image of the People's Republic of China".

So china does not only send students and spies to Western countries to collect information, knowledge and expertise, but also to increase chinese control and influence abroad.
That is the CCP's standard operating procedure and Professor Anne-Marie Brady explains it in her paper "Holding a Pen in One Hand, Gripping a Gun in the Other" about PRC exploitation of civilian channels in NZ for military purposes. She provides some good examples.

Edit: Correct incorrect link.
 
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