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China - Geostrategic & Geopolitical.

Discussion in 'Geostrategic Issues' started by ngatimozart, May 12, 2019.

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  1. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    A coverall thread for geostrategic and geopolitical discussions about the PRC.

    The PRC has an agency, the Ministry of State Security (MSS) that is part intelligence agency and part police agency. A Chinese version of the KGB, maybe but I think possibly closer to the East German SSD (Staatssicherheitsdienst - a.k.a., Stasi) in style and operation - highly efficient and thorough. I would not be surprised in the slightest if the SSD - Stasi had people in it who were part of Heydrich's Sicherheitsdienst (SD) the feared security department of the SS. The MSS is believed to have been formed in 1983 and I do wonder if the SSD provided training and mentoring at some stage, or disaffected SSD personnel did after the collapse of the Soviet Bloc and East Germany. The SSD had a brilliant intelligence head in Markus Wolf who penetrated the highest echelons of West German govt circles and NATO.

    In recent years there has been significant hacking of countries national IT networks and infrastructure by foreign state and non state actors. Three state actors spring to mind, Russia, North Korea and the PRC. Recently the Australian Parliament's information service was hacked by an undisclosed sophisticated state actor and much suspicion has be cast upon the PRC and more specifically the MSS. Attributing the hack on Australia’s parliament will give clarity to the China relationship | The Strategist. This would follow the pattern of aggressive Chinese actions against it's neighbours and western interests since Xi Jinping has taken control of the PRC and embarked upon a policy of purges, one man control and a cult of personality with Xi thought etc., now being taught and enshrined as part of the constitution.

    How the PRC under Xi subverts and influences foreigners and foreign nations and the tools they use is explained in Dr Anne-Marie Brady's ground breaking paper Magic Weapons: China's political influence activities under Xi Jinping. She further discusses this in Chinese interference: Anne-Marie Brady's full submission to the NZ Parliament Justice Select Committee made this month.

    The MSS is also helped by "China’s National Intelligence Law (2017) [which] obligates Chinese citizens and companies to assist China’s intelligence work." (Brady, 2019, Submission to NZ Parliament Justice Select Committee). This creates problems for non Chinese entities when dealing with Chinese companies, especially in sensitive areas. We Can’t Tell if Chinese Firms Work for the Party. Or if you just want to focus on Huawei Huawei has ended a national illusion, Huawei had unauthorised access to people's computers, or Huawei decision looms over NZ. Huawei in NZ have gone on a media blitz through advertising and getting on the news claiming innocence Huawei boss says they'd have been 'kicked out' of NZ if they were spies, however each time they do neglect to mention China's National Intelligence Law (2017).

    Therefore I do think that a pattern is emerging illustrating Chinese efforts to subvert nations in the Asia Pacific region from their current status quo to a situation where they are subservient to the PRC and possibly vassal states. The PRC are playing the long game and have been for many years, however Xi Jinping has accelerated the timeline for his own purposes. This bodes ill for non PRC nations within the Asia Pacific region.
     
  2. Traveller

    Traveller Member

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    DefenceTalk just made it onto the Chines Intelligence undesirable sites list. ;)

    I'm not sure about the Stasi-PRC link as I thought the PRC and DDR were not close.I think this will be an interesting thread especially as the PRC regard 'overseas Chinese' as Chinese regardless of citizenship. Most SE Asia and Australasian countries have significant populations with Chinese heritage. If the PRC is coersive towards these populations the Huawei fuss will look innocent. Australian media have reported on PRC diplomatic missions surveillance of resident 'Chinese' individuals and organisations. Xi Jinping could create very real defence and social issues in our open societies.
     
  3. weaponwh

    weaponwh Member

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    you link on PRC regard "oversea Chinese" as Chinese regardless of citizenship? in my experience that's not true. though its easier to coerce them if they have strong tie back in China.
     
  4. Traveller

    Traveller Member

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    Here is my earlier post with links to China's policy under Xi Jinping regarding overseaqs Chinese:

    Indo Pacific strategy
     
  5. Todjaeger

    Todjaeger Potstirrer

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    It might not be your personal experience, but it has been noted by citizens of various nations that are of Chinese ancestry. It might also be dependent on where one lived/worked, and what they worked on or their area of expertise is.

    A member of this forum, with some Chinese ancestry, that worked in defence-related areas in both a governmental and private sector capacity for a Five Eyes nation has in the past commented about being approached by PRC agents. IIRC he found it an annoying PITA, as he would also then have to report the contact to the security services.

    On a side note, I have heard of other groups which will approach citizens of various nations that are also members of their particular group, seeking to take advantage of a potential dual or conflicting loyalty.
     
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  6. John Fedup

    John Fedup Well-Known Member

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    In Canada's case, multiculturalism at work.
     
  7. weaponwh

    weaponwh Member

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    isn't that just mean PRC think they are easier to exploit compare to say native or 2/3 gen immigrant. in fact I think I read someone their law/official statement before, they only consider those who hold Chinese passport as citizens or kids born by Chinese passport holder oversea. however they might think its easier to exploit those who originate from China, especially the 1st generation immigrant. when look at Defence related stuff, its background check clearly indicated how strong tie the citizen has with their new adapted country. 2nd/3rd gen clearly has advantage over 1st generation immigrant due to the fact the 1st may have a lot family back home, and may travel to their original country a lot, may have financial in their original country. This is true not just china but any 1st gen immigrants.
     
  8. Todjaeger

    Todjaeger Potstirrer

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    Umm... No. As I was not referring to someone who is (to my knowledge) of solely Chinese ethnicity, who also was not born in China (PRC or Taiwan), and the impression I have gotten is that the immigration from China occurred more than a generation or two back.

    The other part of this is that the attempts by the PRC (and some of the other groups I have heard about who engage in such activities) is that they are trying to appeal to those who might have a greater loyalty to a perceived ethnic or cultural identity vs. national identity. This is a potentially unfortunate state of affairs for a number of Western democracies, as some of these nations tend to have a significantly greater degree of multiculturalism, which in turn means a greater likelihood of hyphenated citizens who might feel more loyalty towards something other than country of birth.
     
  9. Traveller

    Traveller Member

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    So who and which ethnic and cultural varieties are you repeatedly posting about? Making posts questioning the integrity of dual citizens without evidence does nothing for the quality of this forum.
     
  10. Todjaeger

    Todjaeger Potstirrer

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    I have specifically not mentioned which group I have heard this happening with, so that others will not question the loyalties of someone who is a member without evidence, as that leads to bigotry. The reason I brought it up was that I was pointing out that divided loyalties are not just an issue for people of Chinese heritage.

    As for the comment about me questioning the integrity and/or loyalty of dual citizens, I am not. You are likely too new a member to know certain things about me, but some of the older members should be aware that I hold dual citizen with two countries (I might also qualify for a third) as are two other members of my immediate family. By a quirk of fate the three of us all share citizenship in one common nation, but have our additional citizenship each in a different nation. If one were to look at my extended family, then there are a number of additional members that also are holders of dual citizenship, adding even more nations into the mix.
     
  11. Ranger25

    Ranger25 Member

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    Si Vis Pacem. Para Bellum
  12. Traveller

    Traveller Member

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    Perhaps English is a second language for you? In an Australian university I achieved a credit average in a BSc, I am aware of nuance. The very fact that you raised the loyalty issue is telling. I hold dual citizenship, from the near-east on the Med and here in Oz. I have taken enough crap over time about my religion and ethnicity. Call me sensitive but when a keyboard posts as has been done here I get 'sensitive'.

    It doesn't matter how old or new a member you are of this forum. If you post as you have done, expect to be called out.
     
  13. John Fedup

    John Fedup Well-Known Member

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    Bloody disgusting. This is all due to corporate greed. China should never have been allowed into the WTO. Western firms should have been barred from allowing any technology transfer whatsoever. Too late now, the number of cyber warriors China has working against the West will strip away just about every piece of IP.
     
  14. Traveller

    Traveller Member

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    Ok, so who makes your socks and jocks? You did raise the WTO , which has bugger all to do with reality. Without the WTO we would still buy cheap socks...

    We screwed ourselves by wanting to pay less for more. Greed? Yes, but not just corporate greed, consumer greed.
     
  15. John Fedup

    John Fedup Well-Known Member

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    In order to gain access to the Chinese market (selling to and access to inexpensive labour), China demanded companies provide technology transfer. Dumb and this is corporate greed but it to a certain extent consumer greed as well. The WTO is a flawed organization but it never the less allows China easy access to world trade that it didn't have before. We would have been better off leaving
    China as a third world socialist failed state that would lack the massive financial resources it now has.
     
  16. Imal

    Imal New Member

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    I wouldn’t look at prior posts as an attack upon the integrity of dual-citizens, far from it. Perhaps the idea that nationality and ancestry are correlated to loyalty was an inevitable point of this conversation considering the topic. Correlation does not imply causation and I don’t believe any rational being would attribute loyalty based solely off such silliness. Obviously a person’s loyalty is subjective to their cumulative experience and cannot simply be summarized by their ancestry. No one here has stated otherwise.

    However lets say it’s been reported that nationality and/or ancestry have apparently been used as statistically significant identifier traits by the PRC for targeting susceptible individuals. If the PRC holds leverage through loyalty issues or legal methods (such as exploiting loyalty to ethnic backgrounds or accountability to China’s National Intelligence Law) these factors one could argue, should be considered. I think these ideas are relevant to the topic at hand and should be entertained if only for the purpose of developing an ethos weathered by peer review.

    A security issues exists if PRC contact seeks compliance with intelligence operations, the individual is based in a critical field and that cooperation is achieved. Again these are not the only pertinent factors that can build leverage towards compliance in intelligence operations, fiscal comes to mind, yet they do exist and should not be discredited.

    Additionally, what countermeasures are there to successful intellectual property theft on the global stage? The US is imposing another round of heightened sanctions, citing in part continuous IP theft, but is prolonged damage to economic growth effective without the outright exclusion of state backed business in sensitive areas. Regulation of markets can only be so effective when IP is being stolen even from within the defence sector.
     
  17. Todjaeger

    Todjaeger Potstirrer

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    Care to point out where I have made a statement, claim, or assertion that a person of xx ethnicity/ancestry and nn nationality will have a divided loyalty, or that their loyalty should be questioned? Same request for those with dual citizenship. So far, the impression I have been left with is that something which I have not written is being read into my posts.
     
  18. OPSSG

    OPSSG Super Moderator Staff Member

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    It’s a known issue with PRC agents active in numerous countries. IMO, Taiwanese counter intelligence really have their hands full. And I have met with and spoken to members of the Taiwanese armed forces, during my period of service.

    Keeping in mind that most approaches are above board, which is why China’s diplomatic outreach is so effective. I have had dinner with a Chinese diplomat fluent in French, amongst his other languages.
    I think you simply misunderstood Todjaeger, whom I have interacted with extensively over the years.

    Let me explain.

    A number of our Mod Team have security clearance in our respective countries and a particular member of our Mod Team was approach approached by foreign intelligence and reported the approach. This is normal procedure and a fact of life - there is nothing in his post that implies lack of loyalty due to religion and ethnicity.

    While my ethnicity is a subject of discussion in this thread (as a Singaporean living in a city with multiple ethnic groups and respectful of the practices of other religions), I find nothing offensive here. Let me assure you that the forum is well moderated.
     
  19. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    Enough of that. I happen to know Todjaeger and you are disrespecting a well known and well respected member of this forum. Do not judge a book by it's cover, nor someones ethnicity and nationality by their user name. If any calling out is done it is by senior members or Moderators. Let it rest. By the way more than one Moderator on here holds dual ethnicity and / or nationality so we do understand the crap that is dished out by keyboard warriors in other places. We have very little tolerance for that crap here.
     
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  20. Traveller

    Traveller Member

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    OPSSG & nagatimozart

    Ok, I'll accept that I was over-sensitive in reading previous posts. I offer an apology for any grief I have caused. I'll go stand in the corner for a while....
     
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